AVR Upgrade - Denon / Onkyo / Marantz / Yamaha ?

PrazVT
PrazVT Posts: 1,607
edited August 2010 in Electronics
Okay, I know similar questions have been asked, but I've been at this all day and I haven't gotten anywhere in terms of making a decision. Right now, I'm running my RTi A7s bi-amped - RX-V663 AVR is pushing the mid / highs and an Onkyo M-282 amp is pushing the woofers (via the RX's pre-outs).

So power isn't any issue, but the Yamaha tends to make music sound a bit harsh (listening to FLAC files via Squeezebox classic & optical in). I've been pondering getting a new AVR - here's my 'must haves':

- 110 wpc+ (ie enough power to push the mid / highs on the A7s)
- pre-outs (so I can use the M-282 amp), 12v trigger
- bi-amp capability (most seem to have it..just saying)
- hdmi 1.4, >3 inputs (ps3, 360, hd dvr are all i'm using right now)
- better speaker setup than the YPAO
- warmer sound for music than the Yamaha is offering
- budget ~$1500 max...<$1000 if possible

I think my signature should have the speakers I'm running.

These are the receivers I've been looking at today -

Onkyo - TX-NR808 (135w x 7)
Pioneer Elite - VSX- 32/33 (110w x 7)
Yamaha - RX-A1000 (105w x 7)
Denon - AVR3311CI (125w x 7)
Marantz - SR6005 (110w x 7)

Though I do watch a lot of blu-ray / 5.1 content, I listen to alot of music as well in 2 channel 'straight' mode via the A7s.

I'd like to get your opinions on music SQ among these brands (as well as any 2cents you may have on the particular receivers).

My dad has an Onkyo 707, which he upgraded to from the 663 (which I inherited). The Onkyo definitely sounds nicer but my experience is limited to that.

I've been bypassing the Yamaha YPAO setup, because for some reason it robs my A7s of their low end. I ended up switching to GEQ mode - which is better, but obviously not optimized. So that still bugs me. Also, I don't use the sub when I'm listening to music b/c the A7s seem to be able to handle most things just fine.

Any help is appreciated :)
Dali Optikon 1Mk2
NAD D3020 V2
Schiit Bifrost 2/64

..the rest are headphone setups.
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Comments

  • GoBigBlue
    GoBigBlue Posts: 212
    edited August 2010
    I have a Yamaha, and I don't think I'll be going the Yamaha route again. I agree with your criticism on the harshness of the Yamaha at times. I'll be going with a Pioneer Elite for my next upgrade.
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  • mole'
    mole' Posts: 3,160
    edited August 2010
    what about the Pioneer Elite SC ?

    http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?miscrcvr&1285112408&/Denon-AVR-3311ci-HDMI-1.4a

    http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1285643739&/Pioneer-Elite-SC-07-

    http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?miscrcvr&1285617082&/Pioneer-Elite-SC-27-new-in-the
    mole'
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  • PrazVT
    PrazVT Posts: 1,607
    edited August 2010
    Yeah I've been looking at the SC-05/07/25/27 receivers. The ICE power amps make those receivers quite tempting ... are the 05/07 2008 models? and 25/27 2009 models? What would I be missing tech-wise? hdmi 1.4, iphone app control, etc?

    just saw your links ...hmm good deals...
    Dali Optikon 1Mk2
    NAD D3020 V2
    Schiit Bifrost 2/64

    ..the rest are headphone setups.
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  • mole'
    mole' Posts: 3,160
    edited August 2010
    PrazVT wrote: »
    Yeah I've been looking at the SC-05/07/25/27 receivers. The ICE power amps make those receivers quite tempting ... are the 05/07 2008 models? and 25/27 2009 models? What would I be missing tech-wise? hdmi 1.4, iphone app control, etc?

    i had a Denon 2311ci and just upgraded to a SC-07. i looked at the 3311ci but the SC-07 had more features and was highly recomended on here

    i got my SC-07 from Hi-Fi Heaven for a very good price

    http://show.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/st.pl?intatran&1279914351&item&Hifiheaven2002&4&5&6&http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/srch_fs.plQQANYAAKEYWAApurlsrchAAEXYAAst26AAAAelite
    mole'
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  • PrazVT
    PrazVT Posts: 1,607
    edited August 2010
    @GoBigBlue
    I have a Yamaha, and I don't think I'll be going the Yamaha route again. I agree with your criticism on the harshness of the Yamaha at times. I'll be going with a Pioneer Elite for my next upgrade.

    Okay good, so I'm not the only one :) I've read good things about Pioneer and Marantz for music; not sure about Denon or Onkyo though. I know the Onkyo 707 is nicer than my Yamaha though.
    Dali Optikon 1Mk2
    NAD D3020 V2
    Schiit Bifrost 2/64

    ..the rest are headphone setups.
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  • GoBigBlue
    GoBigBlue Posts: 212
    edited August 2010
    A lot of things are nicer than our Yamahas, haha! I'm really considering the SC-05 from Pioneer. Which of those receivers tops your list?
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  • PrazVT
    PrazVT Posts: 1,607
    edited August 2010
    Good question.

    If it's features / newest tech (ie. hdmi 1.4a with ARC, MCACC, etc.), then probably it's a toss up between the Marantz SR6005 and the Pioneer Elite VSX-32.

    If I didn't care about the technological updates, and I'm choosing purely based on sound quality, I'd go with a Pioneer Elite SC receiver (05 or 25).

    I actually went to Best Buy today to try to take a look at the SC-35, but they didn't have them in the store yet I guess. Had it been there, I'd probably have taken it as it would solve all dilemmas at one go. That and I'd probably take the financing offer to lessen the upfront hit on my wallet ;)
    Dali Optikon 1Mk2
    NAD D3020 V2
    Schiit Bifrost 2/64

    ..the rest are headphone setups.
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  • PrazVT
    PrazVT Posts: 1,607
    edited August 2010
    k went w/ the Denon AVR3311CI for the mix of new features and decent power. I'll be using my power amp to bi-amp anyway, so not too worried about that aspect of it. Should get it Thursday or Friday so let's see how it goes. Thanks for the input guys :)
    Dali Optikon 1Mk2
    NAD D3020 V2
    Schiit Bifrost 2/64

    ..the rest are headphone setups.
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  • mole'
    mole' Posts: 3,160
    edited August 2010
    what did you get it for?

    i almost got that one before i saw the SC-07
    mole'
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  • PrazVT
    PrazVT Posts: 1,607
    edited August 2010
    what did you get it for?

    what do you mean? $$? Eh, not any special deal or anything.

    Yeah - had the SC-35 been in store, I'd have walked away w/ that. But, I don't think availability of that one (or the VSX-32) is there yet. next time... hehe
    Dali Optikon 1Mk2
    NAD D3020 V2
    Schiit Bifrost 2/64

    ..the rest are headphone setups.
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  • mole'
    mole' Posts: 3,160
    edited August 2010
    best price i found for the 3311ci was $6xx from amazon.

    enjoy your new AVR
    mole'
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited August 2010
    Couldn't vote . . . NAD wasn't one of the options.
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  • mdaudioguy
    mdaudioguy Posts: 5,165
    edited August 2010
    Was going to suggest something you might not have thought of - switching the Yamaha and the Onkyo in the bi-amp. I guess it's a moot point now, but wondered how it would affect the tone. I wasn't a big fan of the Yammies with RTi either. Enjoy your new purchase! :)
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  • PrazVT
    PrazVT Posts: 1,607
    edited August 2010
    I'll admit it crossed my mind when I first bought the amp. But someone on here mentioned the A7s would sound brighter off of the amp than the avr. I may try it once before switching out receivers. I did tone down the Yami's GEQ settings last night, which has helped a bit. Listening to Pearl Jam's 'Black' (FLAC w/ replay gain) via the squeezebox and it still sounds sharp - but less harsh than yesterday.

    Or I could be imagining all of it LOL. Too late now :)
    Dali Optikon 1Mk2
    NAD D3020 V2
    Schiit Bifrost 2/64

    ..the rest are headphone setups.
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  • mdaudioguy
    mdaudioguy Posts: 5,165
    edited August 2010
    Was gonna tell you HK (worked for me), but it wasn't on your list.
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  • PrazVT
    PrazVT Posts: 1,607
    edited August 2010
    Yeah the HKs looked nice too - I just put up a sampling of the ones I had looked at. Honestly, there are so many choices it's tough to pick one.

    On another note...I did the YPAO setup on the FRONT setting, and reversed the bi-amp connections - Yami is driving woofers, Onkyo is driving the mid / tweeters. It sounds a little better maybe (straight 2 ch mode) - the amp is a little stronger than the receiver (105wpc vs 95wpc).

    How would I handle that w/ the Denon? (125wpc)
    Dali Optikon 1Mk2
    NAD D3020 V2
    Schiit Bifrost 2/64

    ..the rest are headphone setups.
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  • LuSh
    LuSh Posts: 887
    edited August 2010
    PrazVT:

    Re-do the YPAO settings only this time use the 'natural' setting. It will roll off the highs quite a bit and add a layer of depth, dare I say make it warm sounding. The Yamaha is dead neutral out of the box. Many people who cite the Yamaha as 'bright' probably never heard one setup correctly...just my .02 cents.
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  • PrazVT
    PrazVT Posts: 1,607
    edited August 2010
    I used to run the YPAO w/ the natural sound setting by default. But when I got the RTi A7s and wanted to listen in 2 ch mode, realized that the natural setting tones down alot of the low end. But you're right, it does sound quite a bit softer in the higher registers - that's probably why I had no complaints prior to the new speakers :)
    Dali Optikon 1Mk2
    NAD D3020 V2
    Schiit Bifrost 2/64

    ..the rest are headphone setups.
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  • LuSh
    LuSh Posts: 887
    edited August 2010
    I use to use an RXV3900 as a pre/pro with a Krell with Dynaudio and Totems among others, never used to have to bi-amp however If I remember correctly you have to setup the Yamaha to bi-amp in the menu system. There is a chance it isn't properly sending the correct information to each tap. I would explore your owner's manual, or perhaps you have and it is correctly connected. I never experienced a lean bottom end, actually I did but only when using the 'Flat' PEQ select.
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  • PrazVT
    PrazVT Posts: 1,607
    edited August 2010
    Yes, w/ the 663 you have to start the receiver in advanced setup mode to turn bi-amping on. When bi-amping is on, you can use the front speaker leads and the back surround leads OR you can use the back surround leads and the pre-outs. If you're using the pre-outs, you can't use the front speaker leads.

    As for the EQ setting, perhaps your RXV3900 is a different animal - definitely much more high end that my 663. But looks like we're definitely getting different results w/ YPAO.
    Dali Optikon 1Mk2
    NAD D3020 V2
    Schiit Bifrost 2/64

    ..the rest are headphone setups.
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  • kevhed72
    kevhed72 Posts: 5,146
    edited August 2010
    I would not worry too much about the "sound" or power of the unit if you plan on possibly adding an external amp some day. My vote would be the Pioneer first, then the Onkyo...
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  • cnh
    cnh Posts: 13,284
    edited August 2010
    I agree that 'higher' end Yamahas like the RXV3900 are very good AVRs and have a more robust sound and do not suffer from the 'bright' sound of more entry models. But then you are paying for that. I owned a lower end Yamaha for a while (full disclosure).

    cnh
    Currently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!

    Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
    [sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash]
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  • concealer404
    concealer404 Posts: 7,440
    edited August 2010
    kevhed72 wrote: »
    I would not worry too much about the "sound" or power of the unit if you plan on possibly adding an external amp some day. My vote would be the Pioneer first, then the Onkyo...

    I would. Everything matters.
    I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.

    Living Room: B&K Reference 5 S2 / Parasound HCA-1000A / Emotiva XDA-2 / Pioneer BDP-51FD / Paradigm 11se MKiii

    Desk: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / ISK HD9999

    Office: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / Dynaco SCA-80Q / Paradigm Legend V.3

    HT: Denon AVR-X3400H / Sony UBP-X700 / RT16 / CS350LS / RT7 / SVS PB1000
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  • PrazVT
    PrazVT Posts: 1,607
    edited August 2010
    Well, I got the Denon AVR3311ci on Friday, so I've had a few days to set it up and play with it. Connected up everything, replaced the $2 stereo cable going from the pre-outs to the power amp w/ something better, and turned it on. The AVR did a firmware update first, and then I went through the Audyssey setup. After some tweaking, it sounds great! Especially in 2 channel stereo / direct / pure direct. The Denon is definitely warmer sounding than the Yamaha 663 (I think there's a difference b/t midrange and high end Yamahas) - no harshness in the highs and seems to be putting out at least 80% of the advertised power in 2 channel mode. I swapped bi-amp between the avr and power amp a few times and didn't feel a difference in the woofers anyway. The mids/highs were a little brighter when using the power amp, but not unpleasant.

    The video upscaler works well too - I've been using the 1080p setting w/o any issues. Using 1080p:24 tends to slow the picture down a little, but turning up tru-motion on my LG LED TV seems to mitigate that. Need to figure out when I'm supposed to use that setting.

    OSD menu system works nicely and I can tweak audio / speaker settings for each source input independently. iPod, network music functionality (FLAC, MP3, M4A playback) all work well and show ID3 and album art info. Pandora and HD radio work w/o a hitch as well - though hopefully PandoraOne 192kbps playback will come to hardware devices some day.

    Anyway ..just initial impressions. Have a meeting now so back to work :)
    Dali Optikon 1Mk2
    NAD D3020 V2
    Schiit Bifrost 2/64

    ..the rest are headphone setups.
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