Hello pre amp goodbye avr
cnoat
Posts: 315
Wow what a difference.Today I picked up an adcom gtp-400 for 15.00 just to see what would happen.Night and day.I guess i will be eating bologna for a while.
Parasound Avc-1800
Mains-Rti 12 -Parasound 1500a
Center-Csi5-Parasound 1000a
Rears-Rti 8-Parasound 750a
Sub SVS Ultra Tv 12
Diamondback and King Cobra IC's
AQ T4 SC
Mains-Rti 12 -Parasound 1500a
Center-Csi5-Parasound 1000a
Rears-Rti 8-Parasound 750a
Sub SVS Ultra Tv 12
Diamondback and King Cobra IC's
AQ T4 SC
Post edited by cnoat on
Comments
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Wow what a difference.Today I picked up an adcom gtp-400 for 15.00 just to see what would happen.Night and day.I guess i will be eating bologna for a while.
It all depends on the AVR.
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pearsall001 wrote: »It all depends on the AVR.
true dat. -
AVR's Suck!!! I will take a good Pre anyday of the week with a good amp..
AVR's are good for HT, for 2 channel fogetaboutit.
For the record this is my opinon from my experience. -
When I switched to a dedicated pre I was really pleased with the sound. One of those upgrades that is immediately obvious. I went from a Harmon Kardon to a Vincent tube pre.2 channel
Vandersteen 3a sigs
McCormick 225
Vincent SAT-1 tube pre
Cambridge 650 c
HSU VTF-15H sub -
Decent Prepros cost more than some high end AVRs, which I don't quite get since prepros have no real need for costly amplification sections. Good AVRs are close to most prepros in clean sound, but prepros offer better configuration and sound field equalization.
It's the cost that keeps us from getting them though... -
TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »AVR's Suck!!! I will take a good Pre anyday of the week with a good amp..
AVR's are good for HT, for 2 channel fogetaboutit.
For the record this is my opinon from my experience.
Blanket statements just don't cut it when it comes to audio gear. Unless you've listened to every AVR out there, then your opinion about AVR's only being good for HT should be prefaced by which one's (or maybe only one) you actually listened to. Then your opinion counts but only on stated model/s. -
pearsall001 wrote: »Blanket statements just don't cut it when it comes to audio gear. Unless you've listened to every AVR out there, then your opinion about AVR's only being good for HT should be prefaced by which one's (or maybe only one) you actually listened to. Then your opinion counts but only on stated model/s.
Hence the last part of my statement:rolleyes: I'm sure there are higher end AVR's that work very well. -
TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »Hence the last part of my statement:rolleyes: I'm sure there are higher end AVR's that work very well.
I understand what you meant by your statement (the one's you tried you didn't like) but other new comers to the forum can only read it one way...that you think all AVR's suck for 2 channel. Your last statement (along w/ your initial statement) only reinforces that your opinion is that all AVR's suck for 2 channel.
Something like I tried brand x/y/z AVR's along w/ model #'s & I didn't like the way they performed in 2 channel mode would be helpful.
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I wonder where the Pioneer Elite 05 falls within the pantheon of AVRs...as far as using as a pre(?). I think my next purchase is going to be a dedicated pre w/ HT bypass to connect to my SC-05...
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pearsall001 wrote: »I understand what you meant by your statement (the one's you tried you didn't like) but other new comers to the forum can only read it one way...that you think all AVR's suck for 2 channel. Your last statement (along w/ your initial statement) only reinforces that your opinion is that all AVR's suck for 2 channel.
Something like I tried brand x/y/z AVR's along w/ model #'s & I didn't like the way they performed in 2 channel mode would be helpful.
Agreed!! I'm just hooked on my 2 channel set-up.
I have the Pioneer SC-07 and that is what runs my HT. I have also Had a Yamaha RXV-863, an Oynko, and JVC receivers. The JVC was the worst but it was a lower end one as well.
Having these receivers in my 2 channel rig at the time I thought sounded great. But as soon as I went to a dedicated pre it was a night and day change in SQ.
So with this said I love my Pioneer SC-07 just not in my 2 channel rig. I plan to get another pre with HT bypass for my HT set-up. -
9 times out of 10 a dedicated pre amp will sound better than an AVR. If it doesn't then it's time to find a new dedicated pre amp. There are some great sounding AVR's out there that can pull double duty to a certain degree, but it's still a compromise using an AVR as a pre in a 2 ch system.
YMMV
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul! -
There are a few AVR's that are worth looking at. Most cost lots of $$$ and are out of my price range.
The problem I have with them is that with new versions of DD, DTS and HDMI you have to upgrade you AVR, which means buying a new amp stage. I like having the Pre and Amp separate so when you do decide to buy that new Super Duper what ever new technology comes out next you can keep your amp.Sunfire TGP, Sunfire Cinema Grand, Sunfire 300~2 (2), Sunfire True Sub (2),Carver ALS Platinum, Carver AL III, TFM-55, C-19, C-9, TX-8, SDA-490t, SDA-390t -
love my adcom...
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9 times out of 10 a dedicated pre amp will sound better than an AVR. If it doesn't then it's time to find a new dedicated pre amp. There are some great sounding AVR's out there that can pull double duty to a certain degree, but it's still a compromise using an AVR as a pre in a 2 ch system.
YMMV
H9
I have to agree. Having a Yammah and then a SC-05 AVR and using them for 2 channel even with dedicated amps just didn't cut it for me. Pre was the way to go in terms of sound quality as my choice. -
Given the same price point a 2 channel preamp will destroy an avr or a pre/pro....it only makes sense. If it doesn't then that is one overpriced preamp.
Regards,
MikeModwright SWL 9.0 SE (6Sons Audio Thunderbird PC with Oyaide 004 terminations)
Consonance cd120T
Consonance Cyber 800 tube monoblocks (6Sons Audio Thunderbird PC's with Oyaide 004 terminations)
Usher CP 6311
Phillips Pronto TS1000 Universal Remote -
I have been experimenting with the AVR versus Pre/Pro combination's here.
The components compared are the Pioneer VSX-23txh receiver, a Parasound AVC-2500 five channel pre/pro, and a Parasound C-2 seven channel pre/pro.
All three units were driving a Parasound HCA-2205AT external amplifier.
The Pioneer and the Parasond 2500 were compared directly to one another the same days (multiple) and with identical hookups, sources and speakers.
A month or so later the 2500 gave up the ghost and I moved on to the C-2.
The C-2 was also directly compared to the Pioneer over several different days using the same equipment as above.
The winner to my ears and not surprisingly is the C-2, but not by any sizable margins.The Parasound AVC-2500 performed extremely well and I would place the overall performance of the unit in the same league as the C-2.
The surprising part I found was the excellent performance obtained by the Pio receiver in two channel against the two Parasound units as a comparison. Using the receiver in pure direct mode with an external dac the short comings were few and I felt the performance was at least very good in every area.
My conclusions were that acceptable (read: very good) two channel performance could be obtained with the receiver in analogue. When using the internal dac of the receiver and inputing the same source as prior. Drop off, loss of quality, was considerable and touched on several different aspects that I consider when critical listening. My observation seems to fly in the face of the general consensus on receiver's two channel performance versus a quality Pre/Pro. <YMMV>Parasound C1, T3, HCA-3500, HCA-2205A, P/DD1550, Pioneer DV-79avi, Oppo BDP-83, WD Media Server W/HDD,
Dynaudio Contour 3.3, Dynaudio Contour T2.1, Polk OWM3, Polk DSW micropro 1000 (x2),
Pioneer Kuro 50" Plasma, Phillips Pronto Control w/Niles HT-MSU. -
A preamp's job is really straight forward, to pass a signal from the source to the amp without altering the sound. In audiophile lingo the best preamp is "no preamp". If your adding a preamp that alters the signal (tubes especially because they add flavor & soul) then it is up to you to decide if you like the new sound or not. But it does not make it a better sound by definition, simply a sound that you may or may not prefer. A quality AVR is quite capable of passing a sound unaltered from point A to B.
Now I just added some soul & flavor to my system by adding in the Music Hall dac25.2. The results have been nothing short of spectacular. I am really enjoying the new sound created by the tube dac running thru my NAD AVR unaltered. I don't want the pre adding any of it's own sonic character & masking the dac 25.2's (or any other source) musical presentation.
My belief is that the pre should be as neutral as possible so you can fully appreciate what music signal is passing thru it. Other wise you have a hodge-podge of sounds all blending together not knowing the strenghts of each. -
pearsall001 wrote: »A quality AVR is quite capable of passing a sound unaltered from point A to B.
No it's not, even direct modes pass the signal through many unnecessary circuits. It's inherent in the design of an AVR, to isolate and pass the signal unaltered would cost a lot of money............more than it would be worth in an AVR.pearsall001 wrote: »Other wise you have a hodge-podge of sounds all blending together not knowing the strengths of each.
In all my years in this hobby I've never found that to be true. But then I've carefully assembled systems.
I'm not at all saying you can't achieve pretty good sound using an AVR as a preamp, but it will never compete sonically with a well designed dedicated 2ch preamp. An AVR's main design function is to compromise.
Anyways, that's how I see it. I'm not saying noobs who read this thread should disregard using a nice AVR as a pre if it fits what they are trying to achieve in building a combo HT/2ch music system. But I'm also not going to give the impression an AVR can compete with a nice dedicated preamp, it can't and won't by it's intended design.
Perhaps there is a small handful of very high end, highly expensive AVR's out there that will do a good job as a 2 ch preamp, maybe even as good of a job as a nice dedicated preamp. But in the end you've invested a huge amount of $$$ to achieve that. Perhaps not the best way to use a budget unless your funds are unlimited.
YMMV
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul! -
No it's not, even direct modes pass the signal through many unnecessary circuits. It's inherent in the design of an AVR, to isolate and pass the signal unaltered would cost a lot of money............more than it would be worth in an AVR.
In all my years in this hobby I've never found that to be true. But then I've carefully assembled systems.
I'm not at all saying you can't achieve pretty good sound using an AVR as a preamp, but it will never compete sonically with a well designed dedicated 2ch preamp. An AVR's main design function is to compromise.
Anyways, that's how I see it. I'm not saying noobs who read this thread should disregard using a nice AVR as a pre if it fits what they are trying to achieve in building a combo HT/2ch music system. But I'm also not going to give the impression an AVR can compete with a nice dedicated preamp, it can't and won't by it's intended design.
Perhaps there is a small handful of very high end, highly expensive AVR's out there that will do a good job as a 2 ch preamp, maybe even as good of a job as a nice dedicated preamp. But in the end you've invested a huge amount of $$$ to achieve that. Perhaps not the best way to use a budget unless your funds are unlimited.
YMMV
H9
All good points but it still comes down to real world listening sessions. At which time all design theories & specs get thrown right out the window. One's ears are the ultimate judge.
My experience is limited to two quality pre's...a Conrad Johnson PV14LS2 (Mullard tubes) & a Krell KAV 250p (SS design). Both quality pieces & should have in theory bested my NAD AVR. It didn't happen. I had all 3 pieces at the same time & did extensive listening sessions with all of them.
So for now I'll stick with my NAD AVR but who's to say I just might try another pre to see what the listening results are. -
There you go, you decided on your own which you preferred. Which always trumph's words/discussion on an audio board.
Design of a particular unit is not a theory, and design plays a HUGE roll in how something performs. IMO, the design of the unit cannot be arbitrarily thrown out the window. Many times the design IS the essence of why something sounds so good and performs so well. Specs OTOH, I can take 'em or leave 'em as they are derived under a very specific set of circumstances.
Enjoy Phil, you have made your choice based on your own preferences and it sounds like you compared them to your satisfaction and choose the best one for you needs and likes. But, you certainly can't extrapolate your findings to make the kind of specific comments you make concerning AVR's and dedicated preamps.
Just because your ears approve the NAD as a pre doesn't mean it passes a signal that is neutral, correct, unadulterated, natural, pure, unprocessed, unflavored etc, etc.
That's all I'm saying.............and I'm just presenting the other POV. I certainly haven't tried everything in every combo and in the end it comes down to whatever floats your boat and makes you happy.:)
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
