With an Ext Amp any point in having a Powerful Amp??

buccidiego
buccidiego Posts: 75
edited June 2010 in Electronics
I'm working on geeting all the gear for my HT. Just got a Parasound 2205AT.
Heard a lot of good things about it...

Now I need to pull the trigger on an AV Receiver.

After reading some reviews/comments/other people experiences, I got attracted by the Elite line from Pioneer.

I have some doubts though... Pioneer have just released the new line of Elite Receivers. I will need pre-outs to be able to connect my extarnal amp, right?

So the ones with pre-outs are the SC-37, SC-35, VSX-33 and VSX32.

The main difference I see on the SC series is that they are more powerful (140wpc to the 110wpc of the VSX), and also have the ICE amp.

If I already have an Ext Amp (2205AT), is there any need for a more powerful AVR? Or I can just go with the smaller ones?

Is there a way to use the power of both the AVR AND the External Amp to drive my front speakers RTi12 ?
If there is a way, then getting more power may be beneficial?

Any recommendation/thought?
Thanks
Post edited by buccidiego on
· Share on FacebookShare on Twitter

Comments

  • buccidiego
    buccidiego Posts: 75
    edited June 2010
    The title should be.....

    With an Ext Amp any point in having a Powerful AV RECEIVER ??

    Sorry for the confusion
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • McLoki
    McLoki Posts: 5,231
    edited June 2010
    If you are not using any of the amp channels in your AVR - no.

    Keep in mind though - with AVR's there is typically more features available in the upper models besides more amp power. If you drop to a lower AVR, make sure you do not lose any other features you may want. (pre-outs being one of the more important :p)

    Michael
    Mains.............Polk LSi15 (Cherry)
    Center............Polk LSiC (Crossover upgraded)
    Surrounds.......Polk LSi7 (Gloss Black - wood sides removed and crossovers upgraded)
    Subwoofers.....SVS 25-31 CS+ and PC+ (both 20hz tune)
    Pre\Pro...........NAD T163 (Modded with LM4562 opamps)
    Amplifier.........Cinepro 3k6 (6-channel, 500wpc@4ohms)
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,576
    edited June 2010
    Why not just get a pre-pro instead of an AVR? I think using a high quality AVR simply as a pre-amp is the dumbest idea but that's just me. There's plenty of really nice pre-pro's out there....just take some time to look. I'd suggest Anthem.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • quadzilla
    quadzilla Posts: 1,543
    edited June 2010
    +1 on going with a pro/pro. I actually regret buying mine now that I have amps running the speakers.
    Turntable: Empire 208
    Arm: Rega 300
    Cart: Shelter 501 III
    Phono Pre: dsachs consulting
    Digital: Marantz SACD 30n
    Pre: Conrad Johnson ET3 SE
    Amp: Conrad Johnson Premier 350
    Cables: Cardas Neutral Reference
    Speakers: SDA 2.3TL, heavily modified
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • buccidiego
    buccidiego Posts: 75
    edited June 2010
    Would it be better to run the RTi12 with the 140 wpc of the Pioneer Elite ICE Amp or with the 220 wpc of the Parasound 2205AT...
    I like the Elite AVR, but if I already have the Parasound, then do I need the ICE amp from the Pioneer?
    I can always sell the 2205AT if needed though...
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 51,918
    edited June 2010
    dorokusai wrote: »
    Why not just get a pre-pro instead of an AVR? I think using a high quality AVR simply as a pre-amp is the dumbest idea but that's just me.

    I was going to suggest that same, you bet me to it.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • cfrizz
    cfrizz Posts: 13,415
    edited June 2010
    Keep the amp, and get a prepro to go with it. Otherwise if you have to get a receiver, then get one has all the bells & whistles you want it to have with preouts.
    Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,576
    edited June 2010
    F1nut wrote: »
    I was going to suggest that same, you bet me to it.

    As long as someone said it...lol.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • buccidiego
    buccidiego Posts: 75
    edited June 2010
    Basic questions probably....
    What is a pre/pro? Which are the main differences with an AVR? Could you recommend some brands/models for me to have a look?
    Thanks!
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • McLoki
    McLoki Posts: 5,231
    edited June 2010
    buccidiego wrote: »
    Basic questions probably....
    What is a pre/pro? Which are the main differences with an AVR? Could you recommend some brands/models for me to have a look?
    Thanks!

    An AVR has a preamp (selecting inputs and volume control), a processor (for surround sound decoding) and an amplifier all in one chassis.

    A pre/Pro has just the preamp and processor parts. Since it does not include the amplifier, you would think it would cheaper than most AVR's, but due to lower sales volume of them, they are typically as much as, or more, than a similar model AVR.

    The benefit of the pre/pro is the lack of amplifier section typically puts less heat and EM in the chassis so you can get a cleaner sound. Also - you often would get balanced outputs that you would typically not get with an AVR. (only matters if your amp has balanced inputs)
    Mains.............Polk LSi15 (Cherry)
    Center............Polk LSiC (Crossover upgraded)
    Surrounds.......Polk LSi7 (Gloss Black - wood sides removed and crossovers upgraded)
    Subwoofers.....SVS 25-31 CS+ and PC+ (both 20hz tune)
    Pre\Pro...........NAD T163 (Modded with LM4562 opamps)
    Amplifier.........Cinepro 3k6 (6-channel, 500wpc@4ohms)
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Hawkeye
    Hawkeye Posts: 1,313
    edited June 2010
    I think the question you have to ask yourself is how far down the hole you want to go!

    Do you just want to enjoy a movie at moderate levels which an AVR will provide, or do you want a theater type experience which a prepro/amp may provide?

    Sounds like your fairly new to this mad house and honest answers to yourself will help the group make recommendations for you. You can buy a lot of movies for the price of an amp or other pieces to enhance your HT.

    What is it your looking for?

    Gordon
    2 Channel -
    Martin Logan Spire, 2 JL Audio F112 subs
    McIntosh C1000 Controller with Tube pre amp, 2 MC501 amplifiers, MD1K Transport & DAC, MR-88 Tuner
    WireWorld Eclipse 6.0 speaker wire and jumpers, Eclipse 5^2 Squared Balanced IC's. Silver Eclipse PCs (5)
    Symposium Rollerblocks 2+ (16)Black Diamond Racing Mk 3 pits (8)
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • buccidiego
    buccidiego Posts: 75
    edited June 2010
    You are right, I'm fairly new in this business. My questions must be sounding too basic. :)

    How far I want to go? Good quality sound, to enjoy movies soundtracks, as well as good music. And at the same time I don't want to go bankrupt. I guess is pretty much what most people on the forum want...some more refined than others. I believe in my case, I would be the entry level, or beginners level.

    I've already got the speakers, (2) RTi12, (1) CSi5, (2) FXi5, (2) RTi8 (rear), (1) PSW505
    I've already got the external amp Parasound 2205AT
    Got the cables (gauge 12), bananas, surge protector APC H15, and installation done (all of it recommended on this forum).
    Still missing the AVR or Pre/Pro (3D ready preferably)
    Have a TV and a Blue Ray player, but would like to go 3D, so may change them.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Sherardp
    Sherardp Posts: 8,038
    edited June 2010
    Check out the SC25 if you can find one, they perform well. Nothing wrong with using an AVR as a pre/pro, plenty of us do it here. Despite what's being said, I don't get what's so dumb about it to be real gentlemen.
    Shoot the jumper.....................BALLIN.............!!!!!

    Home Theater Pics in the Showcase :cool:

    http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showcase/view.php?userid=73580
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,250
    edited June 2010
    Sherardp wrote: »
    Check out the SC25 if you can find one, they perform well. Nothing wrong with using an AVR as a pre/pro, plenty of us do it here. Despite what's being said, I don't get what's so dumb about it to be real gentlemen.

    I think some feel a dedicated pre/pro will give better performance than an AVR, which is many things. So, it's design has probably been compromised in all areas.

    I am using my Sony DA7100ES as a pre/pro, but am seriously looking at the new Cary Audio pre/pro. It's expensive, but is really supposed to sound good, for music as well as HT.

    http://www.caryaudio.com/products/cinema/cinema11a.html
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • kawizx9r
    kawizx9r Posts: 5,150
    edited June 2010
    BlueFox wrote: »
    I think some feel a dedicated pre/pro will give better performance than an AVR, which is many things. So, it's design has probably been comprimised in all areas.

    +1

    Are there 2 threads covering this? I could've sworn I posted on one of these.....
    Truck setup
    Alpine 9856
    Phoenix Gold RSD65CS

    For Sale
    Polk SR6500
    Polk SR5250
    Polk SR104


    heiney9 wrote: »
    Any clue how to use the internet? Found it in about 10 sec.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • buccidiego
    buccidiego Posts: 75
    edited June 2010
    My fault kawizx9r... The first one I posted had the wrong title (this one), so I posted another one with the correct one. But I started getting answers (and more questions) on both... that's why I kept them both running...
    I guess it's part of the learning curve. Sorry
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • cfrizz
    cfrizz Posts: 13,415
    edited June 2010
    BlueFox wrote: »
    I think some feel a dedicated pre/pro will give better performance than an AVR, which is many things. So, it's design has probably been compromised in all areas. http://www.caryaudio.com/products/cinema/cinema11a.html

    +2 I had a Denon receiver when I first got into HT once I added my Parasound, then finally my Sunfire amp, I realized how much the Denon was holding back power wise to my speakers. Then when I finally got my Sunfire prepro, I realized that I finally gained that last little bit of clarity to my system.

    It wasn't as dramatic as the improvement when I added the amplifiers but it was an improvement none the less.

    So that is why we suggest since you are still putting your system together to go straight for a prepro rather than a receiver to prepro.

    I only have this one system for both music & movies. If you get good gear, you will be able to enjoy it with both without the extra expense of a seperate 2 channel system.

    I always say, do it once & do it right, then sit back & enjoy.
    Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • buccidiego
    buccidiego Posts: 75
    edited June 2010
    Good comments folks....
    Any recommendations on good Pre/Pros? Brand/Models?
    I would like to have 3D capability if possible, and good quality of course. Appreciate your thoughts/experience for me to go gather further information on those models.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • cfrizz
    cfrizz Posts: 13,415
    edited June 2010
    3D capability is a fairly new bell. You have to realize that prepros don't upgrade as often as receivers & when they do, they are alot more expensive.

    You will have to decide which is more important to you, the bells & whistles or the improvement in the sound from a less feature rich prepro.

    I have never cared about the latest & greatest, my focus has always been on the music & so long as that sounds the best that it can be, I'm a happy camper.
    Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • cstmar01
    cstmar01 Posts: 4,424
    edited June 2010
    I honestly don't know of any pre/pros currently on the market that can do 3D however it is a very new format and I personally will not be getting into it. The thing about pre/pros too is they are often more pricey than just an AVR but if you do want to go the pre/pro route here are some suggestions.

    Here is one of my favorites due to features and sound quality.
    http://cgi.videogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?prea71ch&1280531700&&&/Anthem-AVM-50V

    http://emotiva.com/umc1.shtm

    Emo has one at a low price, however there have been several problems noted with them with the audio ect and as far as I've seen not all bugs have been worked out yet.

    http://cgi.videogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?prea71ch&1280080285&&&/Krell-HTS-7-1

    no HDMI but the sound quality is awesome with Krell.

    http://integrahometheater.com/model.cfm?class=Preamplifier&m=DHC-80.1&p=i

    this is IMO one of the best pre/pro at a great price on the market. Tons of functions yet easy set up and pretty easy to use (from what I've heard and the reviews).

    There are several others from makes like Classe, Anthem, Lexicon, Marantz, ect ect.
    The problem you will find with pre/pros is often they are going to cost you more money. The cheaper route would be the AVR. Now personally I do not think you have to run an amp with the Pioneer Elite series unless using 4 ohm however Mantis has done so with no problems. I run one, in the room I have that is 14X17ish it goes plenty loud for movies beyond what I need and still sounds great. The Pio Elites come in around 820-1200 on the used market and have pretty much everything you could want in terms of features. Also the amp section IMO is great for movies. I however do not like using the AVR for music as I feel it lacks and would add an external amp for doing 2 channel.
    seeing you already have the amp you could go with a cheaper AVR and save some money but if your amp cuts out or has to go in for service your AVR might not live up to what you expect for sound quality. Yet this would only be short lived and normally Paraound has a very good rep and I have not heard of anyone having one die on them.

    Its going to come down to a few things and YOU need to decide. A what is your budge? 2. do you constantly want the newest tech to come out. if so pre/pros might not be what you want seeing your going to be spending more money upgrading every year or so than a AVR that cost less. 3 do you really think the amp section is going to matter to you? if so then look to one that gives you a good package all together otherwise look for features.

    Listen and decide what you like. Also look at reviews to see what others have to say.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 51,918
    edited June 2010
    About 3D.....it's never going to take off, IMO.

    B&K and Arcam make some nice pre/pros.

    Another thing...unlike 2 channel, it seems that whatever you buy for HT is going to be obsolete in 6 months.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter