My speakers with tubes

Pycroft · May 2010

Hi all...

As always, I'm on the prowl for some tube gear. I've never owned a tube amp before, and am curious what it would sound like. Here is my current gear:

Sony SS-M7A speakers
Xiang Sheng Tube preamp
Carver TFM 35x amp (250 wpc Solid State)
Sony SACD Player

My question is, what would be the minimum wattage that I could use with these speakers that will actually improve the quality, clarity, etc. etc. of the sound. They aren't super efficient speakers - rated at 86 dB and between 40 - 200 wpc. The Carver makes them sing, but would like to try something different to see if it's worth a permanent upgrade. I see a tube amp that is 10 wpc locally (Sophia S.E.T.), but obviuosly not very powerful. I'm assuming that 10 wpc of tube power would not make them sing like 250 wpc of Solid State Carver action. Any suggestions?

And yes...I know watts aren't everything, so I'm looking for subjective, opinion type answers.

James

Pycroft · May 2010

Here is the listing that is local to me:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1279129644&/Sophia-ST.-Baby-Tube-Integrate

James

hearingimpared · May 2010

James I don't really have an answer to that particular question but I can tell you, I've heard 1Cs powered by a mere 20 tube wpc from a Manley Stingray at Ted's Polkfest and it had those babies singing effortlessly.

IIRC a member on here is driving his speakers with 8 tube wpc. It's not winning any SPL awards but it supposidly sounds incredible.

thsmith · May 2010

I use an Anthem Amp 1 with 40wpc with my 1Cs and have no complaints. It will stay for a long time and if I ever upgrade I am still keeping it.

mhardy6647 · May 2010

A Marantz 8B would be worth a try; 35-ish wpc (push-pull EL34); a little pricey but one of the best-sounding amps I've heard, period.

The Sophia amp in that link is low-powered and may not be adequate for full-range use if that's what you are thinking of: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0703/sophiababy.htm 86 dB/2.83 VAC @ 1m is pretty insensitive. you're giving up over 12 dB in "headroom" so to speak with 10 watts vs. 250.

EDIT: Someone mentioned the Stingray; 20 wpc is triode-mode; it's good for probably 35 or more in pentode-mode as I recall (EDIT^2 make that 40 wpc UL); push-pull parallel EL84. Nice amp.

Pycroft · May 2010

Thanks, but keep in mind, I am not talking about 1C's here...those are for sale (WINK WINK).

The speakers are posted in the original post.

I have no rush on this, was just looking for some general things to look out for. The reason Imentioned the Sophia was it was close, and within a respectable budget (I can't spend 2k on a tube amp

)

James

hearingimpared · May 2010

mhardy6647 wrote: »

A Marantz 8B would be worth a try; 35-ish wpc (push-pull EL34); a little pricey but one of the best-sounding amps I've heard, period.

The Sophia amp in that link is low-powered and may not be adequate for full-range use if that's what you are thinking of: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0703/sophiababy.htm 86 dB/2.83 VAC @ 1m is pretty insensitive.

EDIT: Someone mentioned the Stingray; 20 wpc is triode-mode; it's good for probably 35 or more in pentode-mode as I recall (EDIT^2 make that 40 wpc UL); push-pull parallel EL84. Nice amp.

40 in pentode-mode is correct Mark. Do you by any chance remember who the member is who was using the 8 wpc tube amp? For some reason I keep thinking it was Chuck (Madmax) but those memory cells are long dead!:eek:

hearingimpared · May 2010

Pycroft wrote: »

Thanks, but keep in mind, I am not talking about 1C's here...those are for sale (WINK WINK).

The speakers are posted in the original post.

I have no rush on this, was just looking for some general things to look out for. The reason Imentioned the Sophia was it was close, and within a respectable budget (I can't spend 2k on a tube amp )

James

Yep I saw the "Sony SS-M7A speakers" James but I just wanted to give you an example of how 20 wpc can made a speaker like the 1C sing.

mhardy6647 · May 2010

hearingimpared wrote: »

40 in pentode-mode is correct Mark. Do you by any chance remember who the member is who was using the 8 wpc tube amp? For some reason I keep thinking it was Chuck (Madmax) but those memory cells are long dead!:eek:

Dunno, but I have used (e.g.) Ohm Walsh 2s with an EICO HF-81 (PP EL84 ca. 14 wpc) and been very pleased with the results; the most powerful amps at my house are ca. 100 wpc soiled state amps (Flame Linear 200 and a McIntosh MC-2100) and neither are much used because there's other stuff of much lower continuous power output rating that sounds much, much better.

hearingimpared · May 2010

mhardy6647 wrote: »

Dunno, but I have used (e.g.) Ohm Walsh 2s with an EICO HF-81 (PP EL84 ca. 14 wpc) and been very pleased with the results; the most powerful amps at my house are ca. 100 wpc soiled state amps (Flame Linear 200 and a McIntosh MC-2100) and neither are much used because there's other stuff of much lower continuous power output rating that sounds much, much better.

LMAO!!! Did you do that on purpose?

mhardy6647 · May 2010

10-4. The solid state is the soiled state (sometimes).

The Walsh 2 isn't as bad as the "real" Walsh driver speakers like the Ohm F in terms of (in)sensitivity.

vc69 · May 2010

hearingimpared wrote: »

LMAO!!! Did you do that on purpose?

Of course he did!

Pycroft · May 2010

Okay,

It seems there is no definitive answer...

Maybe I'll keep this thread open and post specific things I find and people can comment.

This is local to me - Fisher X-202B integraded tube amp. Here is the Craigslist ad. I get nervous buying things like this cause God forbid something goes wrong, I have no skill with anything whatsoever to fix it...but since I can't afford a new one...let me know what you think. I can't find specs on it anywhere.

http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/ele/1703012622.html

James

TECHNOKID · May 2010

hearingimpared wrote: »

James I don't really have an answer to that particular question but I can tell you, I've heard 1Cs powered by a mere 20 tube wpc from a Manley Stingray at Ted's Polkfest and it had those babies singing effortlessly.

IIRC a member on here is driving his speakers with 8 tube wpc. It's not winning any SPL awards but it supposidly sounds incredible.

Pycroft wrote: »

Thanks, but keep in mind, I am not talking about 1C's here...those are for sale (WINK WINK).

The speakers are posted in the original post.

I have no rush on this, was just looking for some general things to look out for. The reason Imentioned the Sophia was it was close, and within a respectable budget (I can't spend 2k on a tube amp )

James

As pointed out in the OP watts aren't everything and the main reason is the average listener uses their speakers powered at approximately 10 watts. In my humble opinion, a) tube is quality, b) never use an amp for more than half of its capacity will provide you with best sound and allow you to keep it working for you 4 years, c) keep in mind that older gear used RMS power rating versus the marketting rating of today. Therefore, depending on what you are looking for (loudness or quality) then the tube amp maybe or maybe not 4 you!

NOTE: After reading your latest post (above this one) this amp is not for you as you need to be hands on with such. Lamps are easy to replace but components also are aging and if you don't have the skills to replace-service them yourself you then have to be able to push the $$$:

This is being sold as is with no returns

I get nervous buying things like this cause God forbid something goes wrong, I have no skill with anything whatsoever to fix it...but since I can't afford a new one...

Cheers!
TK

mhardy6647 · May 2010

Pycroft wrote: »

Okay,

It seems there is no definitive answer...

Maybe I'll keep this thread open and post specific things I find and people can comment.

This is local to me - Fisher X-202B integraded tube amp. Here is the Craigslist ad. I get nervous buying things like this cause God forbid something goes wrong, I have no skill with anything whatsoever to fix it...but since I can't afford a new one...let me know what you think. I can't find specs on it anywhere.

http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/ele/1703012622.html

James

Nice amplifier; nice iron. I don't know if that one's got 7189 or 7591 outputs. If the former, ca. 15 wpc; if the latter ca. 25 wpc. Worthy of a shot if it is affordable and restored/restoreable.

EDIT: Looks like the "B" used 7591s. Here's some info on the X-202 family...
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=265214
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=255506
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=24576 (see post 7 particularly)
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=180862
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=256325
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=79566
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=243531

wayne3burk · May 2010

Well this isn't local, and maybe it's not what you want, but it's the one i would love to have.

ends in 1hr, 8mins, 19sec's.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120566997225&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:US:1123

no affil.

wayne

Pycroft · May 2010

mhardy -

The post (post 7) states that you need this capacitor, that face ring, all this crap I know nothing about. If I buy this thing for 300 or less, how much work will I have to put into it? (Guessing of course). Keep in mind, I know nothing about schematics, soldering irons or any of the doohicky's inside of the electronics.

Thanks for all the resources

James

Pycroft · May 2010

Found another integrated tube amp that is local. Would love comments how it may sound with my gear.

James
http://cgi.ebay.com/Harman-Kardon-A300-Stereo-Integrated-Tube-Amplifier-/140408502581?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item20b0ffb935

hearingimpared · May 2010

Pycroft wrote: »

Found another integrated tube amp that is local. Would love comments how it may sound with my gear.

James
http://cgi.ebay.com/Harman-Kardon-A300-Stereo-Integrated-Tube-Amplifier-/140408502581?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item20b0ffb935

I love the looks of that old vintage tube gear James.

Pycroft · May 2010

Would this be considered an upgrade to the tube preamp and Carver amp listed in my sig? I like the look too, but know little about this little integrated. I know HK is a reputable company. Is it low end HK for the time?

Poee7R · May 2010

Not a bad little integrated, I owned one a little while back. I do think it is a bit overpriced though. Giving that it has mostly original parts, its probably do for an update, so the cost will go up.

Your speakers are not very efficient, I would look for something 30 or so watts and up. Tubes do handle things differently, but Im afraid you would go flat at any real volume with 10-15 watts. Maybe even 30 or so, hard to say as Ive never had my ears on the Sony's.

Good luck in your search.

Dave

Pycroft · May 2010

Comments on this with my current setup? Again, I know nothing

James

http://cnj.craigslist.org/ele/1760534305.html

mhardy6647 · May 2010

Well... that's a mono amp; 6V6 push-pull, 10 watts. Nice amplifier, but 200 smackers for one is too much gelt.

I recently paid $140 for this pair of Grommes OEM Radio Shack amps, restored) from a local guru who did the work and knows what things are worth. These are virtually identical to the one in your link. They're pretty decent.

Find yourself a competently-restored HH Scott 222C at a price you like and you'll be all set...

hearingimpared · May 2010

Tip of the hat to you Mark. I've never even heard of Grommes.

mhardy6647 · May 2010

heh, newb...

;-)

edit: jes' kiddin'...

Pycroft · May 2010

Forgive my ignorance...

Since it's a mono amp, that means I can only run one speaker per amp? If I can get it cheaper, I would have to find a second amp?

mhardy6647 · May 2010

You can run as many speakers as you want, but the sound will be monaural, not stereo.
Yes, for stereo you'd need two of them (see the photo I posted).
Also, bear in mind it is a 10 watt amplifier.

Imspun4u · May 2010

Just a few thoughts, suggestion's and findings. How loud do you like to listen? Dealing with stereo back in the 80's I bought a mono pair of 100mk Cary's class A amp's once and the sound was to die for. I wanted more power but retain that liquid soundstage. Some one suggested the Roland 100watt stereo. Geezz, I bought it used and it felt like it weighed 100lbs. It did the job though. These can be found on Audigon from time to time and being it's an older amp the cost has dropped (sold new for $5000.00) It's sound's a bit dark (very neutral) so I added a tube preamp and just changed tubes until I found the perfect match. I never regretted buying this amp. Since then we have been swarmed with a host of different amp's so I can not comment on other's. For me I learned that I did a lot of late night listening at a low to normal volume level. It did not matter to the Roland as everything I can describe as audiophile it performed at a normal volume level. I heard thing's which extended far beyond my listening walls. High's and low's sounded real. Removing the cover revealed tin can size capacitor's. It was one awesome amp. So tube amp's do what tube amp's do but if you want the tube sound in solid state I recommend one of the old Roland Amps.
Just my 2 cent's worth. -John

Pycroft · May 2010

I listen at normal levels. I don't mind pumping it up for certain things, but I care more about clarity and precision because most of my listening is classical music. When I throw in a classic rock CD or some kind, I pump up the volume though. I have never heard of Roland...is there a model number of the one you had so I can read up about it?

Thanks.

James

organ · May 2010

Can you give more info about your speakers? Imp curve and sensitivity ratings are very helpful when choosing the right tube amp. There are so many out there SET, P-P, Pentode, Triode, etc.
Tube amps prefer a steady or flat imp (better) and high sens. 3w/ch on a 100+db/w/m horns can rock like a live show.

If your speakers on not that sensitive, the best route to take is to look for an amp that is a push/pull design with EL34 or KT88/6550 tubes. They usually range from 30w/ch to 50+w/ch. One that allows you to choose between pentode and triode mode is even better if you plan to get more efficient speakers in the future.

You should also look into the bias setting. Some units have built in bias meters while others don't. So you'll have to use a voltmeter and measure/adjust. Some are auto bias, so when changing tubes, it's plug and play.

Pycroft · May 2010

I would categorize these as non-efficient:

86 db sensativity, 8ohm resistance, 40-200 watts. 55lbs each.

I really have no idea what you just said about anything. What is imp? Steady imp? Flat imp? etc. etc.

Thanks for the info, at least what I understood of it

James