Onkyo settings are not active on direct feed

kuntasensei · July 2009

Oh, sweet Christ on a cracker... turn to page 66 for 7.1 then - same result. But please RTFM! There is no sense in people in this thread having to tell you the same freakin' thing OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

Better yet, don't listen to any of us - go buy a bitstreaming player and enjoy hearing the exact same quality of sound that you already had with the exact same features you could apply now if you'd just LISTEN.

Toolfan66 · July 2009

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

Okay...

Tool, is that message under your sig something you came up with, about Polky being on your ignore list?

He is on my ignore list, And for good reason. I don't care to read anything he has to post. I tried as well as others to help him out then his true colors showed. It's just not worth the time or trouble, and the last thing I want is to be banned from here.

slowpolky · July 2009

I Love my dolby late night volume optimization

I cant use it with the ps3

Why does this question bother anyone?

nguyendot · July 2009

I think it just bothers you. Turn the volume down then.

I just play it full volume whether it's 2pm or 2am.

cnh · July 2009

You gotta love this line of questioning. Kuntasensei has answered EVERYONE of your questions slow.

He took the time to and was very informative! As for me I stand by my first response...above. And if you don't get it. Forget about 'asking' and just TRY what people are telling you. Don't be a ditz!

I can't tell if you're pulling our leg or are genuinely 'incapable' of LISTENING to advice and processing it!

Good Luck slow....slow, come to think of it...the word applies here!

I don't believe in ignore lists. But if we had a JOKE list...I'd have a few on that! Because it's getting hard to take this stuff seriously...and I'm a patient man!

cnh

slowpolky · July 2009

I get the point that I can now use other listening modes but I dont get the whole point .

What is the point of having hdmi 1.3b
Where is the proof that multichannel is the same quality as all the new dolby true hd codes ,i mean what's the point then of even having them if they dont sound any better ?

Basicly with the ps3 I cant use the late night volume optimization ,I payed for that function duhhhh

Why make me out like I'm totally retarded ,

I am being told the audyssey volume optimization will sound better than the dolby by people who just downloaded the manual

Mike LoManaco · July 2009

comfortablycurt wrote: »

When it's running in Direct...the AVR won't be processing the signal at all. That's why it's called "Direct". It takes the signal directly from the source, and leaves it untouched through the whole path.

Use a different listening mode if you want the processing.

What I was trying to make him understand is that there appears to be just two listening modes available for incoming multichannel PCM -- DIRECT or MULTICHANNEL. Some purists have advised using DIRECT when receiving PCM signals from, say, a Blu-ray player, but from what we're learning here, it seems DIRECT does not allow for bass management, level delays, etc.

slowpolky · July 2009

Some purists have advised using DIRECT when receiving PCM signals

Thats what I have gathered on the subject mike

Mike LoManaco · July 2009

'**** makes a few good points below, and I have to say...I almost choked up my Cap'N Crunch (I wasn't really eating that, but okay) after I read his "Jesus Christ on a cracker..." comment in another reply...f***ing hilarious...

But let me address some of these elements below because if we can't drill into Polky's brain, perhaps others here can learn something about Onkyo's receiver operations:

kuntasensei wrote: »

As I said before, late night mode depends on receiving Dolby directly in the receiver because it depends on metadata encoded into the bitstream. However, you don't need to use the Dolby late night mode because your receiver has Audyssey Dynamic Volume. But if you're using DIRECT mode on your receiver, that's what you're getting - A DIRECT VERSION OF WHAT IS BEING SENT TO THE RECEIVER, WITH NO PROCESSING.

First of all, I don't understand where his questions are coming from and why he's asking them so randomly or what his exact issue is with his unit; beyond that, your tips above are logical, and have shed some light on the whole "Direct" dilemma many have fought with on these receivers...so we have reached an understanding that DIRECT merely feeds the receiver a "plain, unaltered, vanilla" signal from the source with NO processing or delay adjustments, levels, anything. Yes?

Multichannel mode, on the other hand, takes the incoming LPCM and still applies all of the internally set parameters such as speaker delays, level trims, crossovers, etc. through the receiver's DSP. It does NOT unpack the data again. It simply processes the lossless data it is given.

THIS has been in question on many forums since the launch of the new formats, HDMI 1.3a receivers and Blu-ray/HD DVD players, and no one was able to get straight answers about it. SO WE CAN be assured that leaving our receivers on "MULTICH" listening mode for incoming decoded multichannel PCM signals is the CORRECT mode for applying all the delays, level volumes (trims), etc. to the signal?

In other words, when our Onkyos see the incoming multichannel LPCM signal from, say, a Blu-ray player that's decoding, say, a Dolby TrueHD track into LPCM, when set to MULTICHANNEL listening mode, the receiver will apply all distances, levels, etc. to the signal, just as if it's seeing a bitstreamed signal from a source deck?

That's why page 67 of your receiver's manual says:
"Multichannel
This mode is for use with PCM multichannel sources."

I gotta tell you -- Polky isn't the first Onkyo owner to be confused and intimidated by their receiver's manuals; much of it is unclear, much like Panasonic's manuals for their DVD and BD players. Beyond that, I need to check to see if my 605's book mentions anything about what mode to use for multichannel PCM sources.

Change the listening mode to Multichannel, engage Audyssey Dynamic Volume. It does the same thing as late night mode. It's actually better than Dolby's implementation because Audyssey's research on the subject is far more current and it works in conjunction with Audyssey's Dynamic EQ.

And guess what? If you set it to Multichannel, YOU CAN APPLY DPL-IIZ or DPL-IIX PROCESSING ON TOP OF IT. Your manual says so on Page 65. Just hit the MOVIE, MUSIC, or GAME buttons after you've set the listening mode to Multichannel.

Reading the manual... Totally overrated, huh?

Overrated by many, but it shouldn't be.

In my DVD input's LISTENING MODE PRESET menu on my 605, I have "MULTICHANNEL PCM" set to "MULTICH" for a listening mode, but my 605 isn't as advanced as his receiver, so I don't have the new Volume algorithm. Are we in agreement that "MULTICH" IS the correct listening mode for incoming decoded PCM signals from my Blu-ray player?

What would adding Pro Logic II processing on top of Multichannel yield, or benefit? Is this just for expanding 5.1 multichannel sources to 6 or 7.1?

Mike LoManaco · July 2009

nguyendot wrote: »

sometimes i wonder if he asks things not for a real answer, but to emote some kind of awkward response from us. Then again that has been identified by numerous other forum members previously.

+1.

Mike LoManaco · July 2009

kuntasensei wrote: »

Oh, sweet Christ on a cracker... turn to page 66 for 7.1 then - same result. But please RTFM! There is no sense in people in this thread having to tell you the same freakin' thing OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

Better yet, don't listen to any of us - go buy a bitstreaming player and enjoy hearing the exact same quality of sound that you already had with the exact same features you could apply now if you'd just LISTEN.

SORRY, '**** -- you said "OH SWEET CHRIST ON A CRACKER," not "Jesus Christ on a cracker" as I originally thought...either way, it was funny as ****...

Mike LoManaco · July 2009

TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »

He is on my ignore list, And for good reason. I don't care to read anything he has to post. I tried as well as others to help him out then his true colors showed. It's just not worth the time or trouble, and the last thing I want is to be banned from here.

Got-cha.

Mike LoManaco · July 2009

slowpolky wrote: »

Some purists have advised using DIRECT when receiving PCM signals

Thats what I have gathered on the subject mike

...that's what I heard, too, but from what everyone is saying here, "Multichannel" is the mode to use so all delays, levels, and everything else your receiver is supposed to do to the signal will be applied.

kuntasensei · July 2009

slowpolky wrote: »

I get the point that I can now use other listening modes but I dont get the whole point .

What is the point of having hdmi 1.3b
Where is the proof that multichannel is the same quality as all the new dolby true hd codes ,i mean what's the point then of even having them if they dont sound any better ?

Basicly with the ps3 I cant use the late night volume optimization ,I payed for that function duhhhh

Why make me out like I'm totally retarded ,

I am being told the audyssey volume optimization will sound better than the dolby by people who just downloaded the manual

No... you're being told that by someone who 1) downloaded the manual out of kindness TO HELP YOU, 2) reads every scrap of data on these new technologies to keep up with the hobby that I love, 3) has an Onkyo 705 and wrote the setup FAQ on it for AVSForum, and 4) HAS HEARD DYNAMIC VOLUME/EQ IN ACTION. You know why you can't use Dolby's late night mode on LPCM? For the same reason you can't use it on DTS tracks. Dolby late night does what it does by using metadata encoded in the bitstream that tells the decoder the dialogue level and average level of the other sounds. If you aren't getting a Dolby bitstream to the receiver, then logically you can't use Dolby late night mode, regardless of whether you paid for that feature. That's the choice you made when you bought a PS3 as your source.

The reason you aren't getting a Dolby bitstream to your receiver for the lossless codecs is that the PS3 uses an earlier spec for its HDMI port (pre-1.3a) that doesn't support bitstreaming on a hardware level. That means bitstreaming can NEVER be patched in via firmware update because the hardware required does not exist in the PS3's design. However, since the PS3's Cell processor is more powerful than the DSPs in your receiver, it can decode the Dolby TrueHD or DTS Master Audio and then send this still-lossless audio via multichannel LPCM to your receiver, making bitstreaming unnecessary. YOU ARE STILL USING THE LOSSLESS CODECS and you are still getting the benefit of lossless audio. All that's changing is where in the signal chain they're being decoded, and the EXACT SAME AUDIO IS BEING SENT TO YOUR SPEAKERS.

What I'm curious about is why you're still continuing to argue here instead of just trying it. Okay, so you can't use Dolby late night mode with your PS3. We've established that and I've explained why. Go buy a bitstreaming player then and stop asking the same questions that have been answered for you many times here by several people. Or... totally for free... you can try the Audyssey alternative which is far more advanced than what Dolby's late night compression does, can be applied to any source, has many more years of research behind it, and was co-designed by Tomlinson Holman (the TH in THX). It's in your receiver! PRESS THE BUTTON AND TRY IT ALREADY! If you don't like it, your only option is to go buy a standalone BD player that can bitstream via HDMI. You won't hear a lick of difference... but it's your money, so go nuts.

slowpolky · July 2009

I dont know what to think about you guys who just keep going on about previous posts blah blah

I have stopped responding to negativeness

slowpolky · July 2009

The late night feature is best for my listening conditions , I have compared them

I have not argued by saying anyones wrong or right

kuntasensei · July 2009

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

What would adding Pro Logic II processing on top of Multichannel yield, or benefit? Is this just for expanding 5.1 multichannel sources to 6 or 7.1?

We've covered all those other bases, but I wanted to answer this one question. Yes, applying Pro-Logic IIx or IIz on top of Multichannel would just be for expanding the 5.1 to 7.1 in the case of 5.1 tracks. I can't speak for IIz since I haven't toyed with it yet, but Dolby recommends using DPL-IIx Movie Mode instead of Dolby EX processing for all movies mixed for DD-EX in the theater... which is pretty much EVERY movie now, so it's a safe bet that the rear surround data is still there from the master mix (since rear surround data for theatrical mixes is mixed into the left/right surrounds and de-matrixed to create the sound for the rear speaker array). So if you have 7.1 and send your receiver a lossless 5.1 track, I recommend using DPL-IIx Movie on top of that to recreate the same rear soundfield that was represented in the theater. Dolby maintains that this method is superior to DD-EX because EX creates a band-limited 6th channel, whereas DPL-IIx Movie creates two distinct full bandwidth channels with more accurate steering from the same encoded data (i.e. any audio whose phase and level correlate in the left/right surrounds). Personally, I use DPL-IIx Music mode for DVD-Audio discs, which are sent to my 705 as PCM via HDMI.

kuntasensei · July 2009

slowpolky wrote: »

The late night feature is best for my listening conditions , I have compared them

I have not argued by saying anyones wrong or right

Well then you're going to have to buy a bitstreaming player to use late night mode. That feature does not work with the way the PS3 sends the audio by its very nature (see pg. 75 of your manual). End of story.

slowpolky · July 2009

I thought direct mode produced better sound than the llx when watching , haunting in connecticut

kuntasensei · July 2009

Direct turns off all equalization and bass management... and for 5.1 tracks, doesn't use the rear surrounds at all. Listen to it however you like - I'm just explaining the technical side of it.

slowpolky · July 2009

I did notice the rear channels were not in use during watchmen

Kun your intelligent explanation has been absorbed and I truely thank you for taking the time and effort to help

nguyendot · July 2009

slowpolky wrote: »

I dont know what to think about you guys who just keep going on about previous posts blah blah

I have stopped responding to negativeness

I think you've stopped responding to any logical answers we have given you. Otherwise you would have stopped asking the same questions over and over.

concealer404 · July 2009

slowpolky wrote: »

I thought direct mode produced better sound than the llx when watching , haunting in connecticut

So use whatever sounds better? I'm having a hard time determining what you're even asking anymore, as all of your questions have been answered....

Personally, i feel that night mode is a complete waste of a feature. Just turn the volume down.

I had it on my old Oinker 503, and i used it exactly once. To figure out that i had no need for it.

Mike LoManaco · July 2009

kuntasensei wrote: »

We've covered all those other bases, but I wanted to answer this one question. Yes, applying Pro-Logic IIx or IIz on top of Multichannel would just be for expanding the 5.1 to 7.1 in the case of 5.1 tracks. I can't speak for IIz since I haven't toyed with it yet, but Dolby recommends using DPL-IIx Movie Mode instead of Dolby EX processing for all movies mixed for DD-EX in the theater... which is pretty much EVERY movie now, so it's a safe bet that the rear surround data is still there from the master mix (since rear surround data for theatrical mixes is mixed into the left/right surrounds and de-matrixed to create the sound for the rear speaker array). So if you have 7.1 and send your receiver a lossless 5.1 track, I recommend using DPL-IIx Movie on top of that to recreate the same rear soundfield that was represented in the theater. Dolby maintains that this method is superior to DD-EX because EX creates a band-limited 6th channel, whereas DPL-IIx Movie creates two distinct full bandwidth channels with more accurate steering from the same encoded data (i.e. any audio whose phase and level correlate in the left/right surrounds). Personally, I use DPL-IIx Music mode for DVD-Audio discs, which are sent to my 705 as PCM via HDMI.

I was just curious because although I only have a 5.1 array for now, the option of expanding the soundfield was intriguing, and there have been so many conflicting reports about how to apply what sound mode, DSP, field, etc. to a mix.

Another interesting "situation" has come up worthy of discussion, in keeping with this "multichannel" theme; last night, I took the Iron Man Blu-ray off the shelf (I reviewed this title when it first came out) and, reintroducing myself to its Dolby TrueHD mix, I wasn't that impressed with the audio -- but I am beginning to suspect it's the connection of my gear.

Because my first generation Panasonic BD player, the DMP-BD10A, cannot bitstream TrueHD, I have the TrueHD output set to PCM, so the player internally decodes the tracks and sends them as multichannel PCM to my Onk 605. In the Onk, the incoming PCM is handled by "MULTICH" listening mode (as we've been discussing here is the correct mode) and the display of the receiver reads "HDMI/MULTICHANNEL/PCM" in small letters and "Multich" in the larger display below it as listening mode -- first of all, is the correct message the receiver is supposed to be displaying during PCM playback?

Now, in the PLAYER'S setup menu, under the Multichannel Speaker connection, I have all those set to "LARGE" and values set to ZERO decibels (0dB) as I have been told this is the way to pass the decoded PCM signals from the player to the receiver so the receiver processes the audio correctly. Normally, this speaker output setup on the player would be used for connecting ANALOG outputs to a receiver or processor, and setting the values for the player internally, but I am not using analog, only HDMI out from the player -- still, I was told in these Panasonics, the multichannel speaker output must be set right in order to even pass PCM DIGITALLY over HDMI, and "right" would be to have all the speakers set to LARGE in the player, with trims and distances all set to ZERO dBs. Does this sound correct?

Even so, decoded TrueHD tracks from my player don't sound as great as Dolby Digital and DTS tracks that are sent bitstreamed and processed at the Onkyo; I don't know what it is, but dialogue is horrendously lower in output when sending tracks as decoded PCM. My center channel, as discussed, is 2 dBs higher than the "main" channels to compensate for dialogue output on DVD and Blu-ray soundtracks, and although this has been shunned on here before, the calibration levels have been confirmed and re-confirmed by me and two other installers who checked the system.

The Dark Knight and Iron Man are two Blu-rays in particular with horrendously low dialogue output on their TrueHD tracks compared to the rest of the mix when played back through my CSi30.

Onkyo settings are not active on direct feed

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