Monitor 5b's x-over upgrade w/pics

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  • comfortablycurt
    comfortablycurt Posts: 6,745
    edited March 2009
    jakelm wrote: »
    Jonesy, I was the one who noticed an additional resistor for the midbass in my 7b's. There are no schematics for our 7's. Polk used a 2.7ohm in line with the 34uf cap for midbass and a 4.5ohm in line with the 12uf cap for tweeter.

    I went with Solens caps accross the board, a 33uf and a 12uf and Mills 12watt resistors 2.5 and 4.5.

    I have pics here somewhere of the original and modified 7b xover

    I think I just answered my own question, I'm not sure how I missed that post...lol

    I think I'm going to go with the Solen PB series 33uf and 12uf cap's that Brock used. I may upgrade to the Sonicaps eventually, but that's more than I want to spend right now.

    I'll go with the Mill's resistors, as that seems to be the recommended choice. Are there any drawbacks to using the 12 watt Mill's resistors? Parts Express only has the 12 watts resistors, and I'd like to avoid having to place multiple orders.

    My question about the inductors still remains though...should I upgrade them? I want to make sure I do it right.:)

    While I'm at it, I think I'm going to go ahead and upgrade to some Vampire binding posts. These stock posts are really chintzy...I can barely even fit 14 gauge wire in them...lol

    Will this stuff work as well as Mortite, or should I get the real stuff? From what I can tell, it's basically the same stuff.
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  • fbm211
    fbm211 Posts: 1,488
    edited March 2009
    Well I dont have anywhere near as many posts as you but I would have to suggest you use the dayton precision 1% metallized caps.I also have heard the mills resistors sound warmer compared to the mundorf resistors.So choose mundorf for a brighter sound I guess. And use real mortite as a shootout was conducted by DarqueKnight and it was the best.(Dont bother with the inductors.Many have said its a waste of money.)Just checked PE...Dayton doesnt seem to have the right values so maybe not.
    But sonicaps are 20% off right now....
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited March 2009
    If you can swing it,, go with the Sonicaps and Mills. I have a pair and replaced them with Mills 12 watters and the caps were replaced with sonicaps,, having used the Solen Pb series and Sonicaps,,I'll go with the sonicaps any day.To me,it makes better sense to open em' up once,and replace the caps and resistors with what you plan to stay with for some time.I say that not be critical, but why spend the money twice? Especially is they have a 20% sale going on. Good luck.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,395
    edited March 2009
    Curt, keep the stock inductors. The Solens are alright and will certainly be much better than stock but I'd now recommend Clarity caps or some like the upper line Dayton's. The Mills resistors are a must also. Sonicaps can get pricey so if you have the extra coin they are certainly worth it, if not don't sweat it.

    H9

    P.s. there really is nothing wrong with Solens............some here hate them, but for this application they will work nicely.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • nikolas812
    nikolas812 Posts: 2,915
    edited March 2009
    I would also recommend the Sonicaps if you can swing it. I just replaced the caps in my M5jr's that had already been modded with a pair of Jantez caps. The difference was well worth the extra money IMO...


    Everything is 20% off at sonicraft right now...





    Nick
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  • comfortablycurt
    comfortablycurt Posts: 6,745
    edited March 2009
    I'd love to go with the Sonicaps, as that seems to be considered the best, they're a lot more expensive than the Solens though. I may still end up going with them though, time will tell. I plan to be using these speakers for a long time, so the Sonicaps may be the better route to go.

    The 20% off on Sonicaps won't really help me unfortunately, unless they still have the sale going like 8 months from now...lol...I'm not planning on doing this for a while yet. I'll likely end up doing it early next winter. I've got a lot of other mods that are taking precedence over this right now.

    Which Sonicaps are recommended? I see they have the Gen I, Gen II and the Platinum series. Which ones should I look into? Whichever one my price range allows?...lol

    I'll also have to look into the Clarity Caps and Daytons. I'll also go with the real Mortite if it's better, and I'll just use the stock inductors. Thanks for the info everyone:)
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited March 2009
    I wouldn't use Solen in the HF circuit. If anything, use a Sonic Cap for the tweeter, Solen for the woofer.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 51,659
    edited March 2009
    I wouldn't use Solen in the HF circuit.

    Me either.....yuck.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

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  • nikolas812
    nikolas812 Posts: 2,915
    edited March 2009
    comfortablycurt wrote: »
    I'd love to go with the Sonicaps, as that seems to be considered the best, they're a lot more expensive than the Solens though. I may still end up going with them though, time will tell. I plan to be using these speakers for a long time, so the Sonicaps may be the better route to go.

    The 20% off on Sonicaps won't really help me unfortunately, unless they still have the sale going like 8 months from now...lol...I'm not planning on doing this for a while yet. I'll likely end up doing it early next winter. I've got a lot of other mods that are taking precedence over this right now.

    Which Sonicaps are recommended? I see they have the Gen I, Gen II and the Platinum series. Which ones should I look into? Whichever one my price range allows?...lol

    I'll also have to look into the Clarity Caps and Daytons. I'll also go with the real Mortite if it's better, and I'll just use the stock inductors. Thanks for the info everyone:)



    Gen I

    Take a look at the Mundorf prices. Then the Sonicap prices won't look so bad.:D


    Nick
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited March 2009
    Or these: http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=170&products_id=8378
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • comfortablycurt
    comfortablycurt Posts: 6,745
    edited March 2009
    Face wrote: »
    I wouldn't use Solen in the HF circuit. If anything, use a Sonic Cap for the tweeter, Solen for the woofer.
    F1nut wrote: »
    Me either.....yuck.

    Using the Sonicaps on the HF and the Solens on the LF is another option I've considered. That would help split the cost a little bit.

    Upon further consideration though, I think I'm just going to go for the Sonicaps for both. They seem to be the most widely recommended brand, and I want to make sure I do it right the first time rather than having to tear it apart a second time.

    You guys really have a tendency of making people spend more money.:p
    nikolas812 wrote: »
    Gen I

    Nick

    Thanks, I'll have to look them up for some pricing. What's the best source? I've heard several people recommend Parts Connexion, but their website seems to be screwed up right now. When I go to the capacitor page, there's a scroll bar across the bottom, and it won't let me scroll over, so I can't look at the Sonicaps. I'll have to check back later.
    Face wrote: »
    Or these: http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=170&products_id=8378

    :eek:I just choked when I saw that...lol...

    In a cost-no-object scenario, what would be recommended? Are the Sonicaps still number one, or is there an even better choice out there? I won't be going any higher up than the Sonicaps(at least not right now), just curious though.

    Thanks a lot for the help guys, it's much appreciated.:)
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited March 2009
    comfortablycurt wrote: »
    In a cost-no-object scenario, what would be recommended? Are the Sonicaps still number one, or is there an even better choice out there? I won't be going any higher up than the Sonicaps(at least not right now), just curious though.

    Thanks a lot for the help guys, it's much appreciated.:)
    Unfortunately I haven't tried them yet.

    http://www.electrumaudio.com/magento/index.php/capacitors/signal-capacitors/duelund-cast-pio-silver-foil-capacitors/duelund-2-2uf-630v-cast-pio-silver-foil-paper-in-oil-signal-capacitor.html
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • comfortablycurt
    comfortablycurt Posts: 6,745
    edited March 2009
    Face wrote: »
    Unfortunately I haven't tried them yet.

    http://www.electrumaudio.com/magento/index.php/capacitors/signal-capacitors/duelund-cast-pio-silver-foil-capacitors/duelund-2-2uf-630v-cast-pio-silver-foil-paper-in-oil-signal-capacitor.html

    :eek::eek::eek:

    Holy ****!!! That's a little bit more expensive... I don't think I'll be trying those one's anytime soon. That's like 10 times what I paid for the speakers to begin with...lol

    I bet they'd sound awesome with those though.


    One more question. Are the Mill's the best choice in resistors for me? I've seen a lot of recommendations for the Mundorf's too. Are they better, or should I stick with Mill's?
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  • cnh
    cnh Posts: 13,284
    edited March 2009
    What do you guys do? Read SS engineering manuals in your spare-time. Honestly, where does one even learn about such things?

    When I was in college we had an engineering department and I took a computer course with them that had me punching computer cards in BASIC. I did fine. But without sitting around and reading technical manuals on Sundays or without having degrees in the field like Bob Carver how does one even navigate such a field. I guess what I'm saying is I'd be curious as to the actual background of those 'knowledeable in this area?

    Come clean you guys! That's not normal knowledge there...? You have to learn that--it's very very specialized awareness of electronics, circuits, resistors, capacitors, power supplies--etc. etc., etc.

    I am 'honestly' curious. Because I just don't have that kind of 'time'?

    cnh
    Currently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!

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  • nikolas812
    nikolas812 Posts: 2,915
    edited March 2009
    Sonicraft is were I get my caps. Among other things...


    http://www.soniccraft.com/index.htm



    Nick
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited March 2009
    Mills and Mundorf both have their own sound. IMO, Mundorf are more transparent, but can have a glare to them. Mills have a warmer sound to them. As for which sounds better, it depends on the application.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • comfortablycurt
    comfortablycurt Posts: 6,745
    edited March 2009
    nikolas812 wrote: »
    Sonicraft is were I get my caps. Among other things...

    http://www.soniccraft.com/index.htm

    Nick

    Thanks for the link...I was looking there last night actually. I noticed that for the Gen I's, they don't have a 34uf cap. The closest they have is a 30uf. Would I be alright using that? That's within the tolerances of the originals I suppose, but it seems like it would be pretty far on the low side of the tolerances.
    Face wrote: »
    Mills and Mundorf both have their own sound. IMO, Mundorf are more transparent, but can have a glare to them. Mills have a warmer sound to them. As for which sounds better, it depends on the application.

    Thanks Face.:) I love warm sounding midrange, so it sounds like the Mill's might be the better choice for me. I may have to do some experimenting with the Mundorf's in the future though.
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  • nikolas812
    nikolas812 Posts: 2,915
    edited March 2009
    I'm not sure. You need to ask someone more informed...


    But I don't see why two 17uf's wired together wouldn't work....




    Nik
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited March 2009
    They can also make custom values. Due to the size of the binding post cup, I would probably want to consider something physically smaller though, such as a pair of 17uf's or a Dayton cap.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • comfortablycurt
    comfortablycurt Posts: 6,745
    edited March 2009
    So would a 34uf cap still fit? It'd be about 1.5 inches wide and about 2.85 inches long. It looks like it would fit physically, though it would be a pretty tight squeeze when installing it into the cabinet.
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  • acerjac
    acerjac Posts: 28
    edited July 2009
    Hey guys, I have a quick question about the 34uf cap. I bought the Daytons 30 and 4uf caps to meet the 34uf value. I would need to wire them end to end instead of parrallel correct? Thanks for the help.

    Mark
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 34,903
    edited July 2009
    Nope. capacitances add in parallel (i.e., treat it like resistance in series). To get 34 uF, parallel the caps.
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  • Ricardo
    Ricardo Posts: 10,636
    edited July 2009
    In order to have the combined value equal to the sum of all values:

    Capacitors must be wired in parallel.

    Resistors must be wired in series.
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  • NJPOLKER
    NJPOLKER Posts: 3,474
    edited July 2009
    acerjac wrote: »
    Hey guys, I have a quick question about the 34uf cap. I bought the Daytons 30 and 4uf caps to meet the 34uf value. I would need to wire them end to end instead of parrallel correct? Thanks for the help.

    Mark

    Did you actually buy them already?
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  • acerjac
    acerjac Posts: 28
    edited July 2009
    yes I did. I could not find a 34uf cap anywhere.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,395
    edited July 2009
    acerjac wrote: »
    yes I did. I could not find a 34uf cap anywhere.

    Clarity caps SA line carries one

    Solen makes one as well.

    Both are highly suited for the low pass part of a x-over. I would use Clarity caps or Sonicaps for the high pass. Right now Sonicaps are on sale 20% off which puts right at about the same cost as the Clarity SA line.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,395
    edited July 2009
    If I were going to do mine again I'd use Clarity Cap PX line for the low pass and Clarity cap SA for the high pass. Right now I have all Solens, and while I don't dislike them as much as other people, I am contemplating either the Sonicap Gen I 12uF or Clarity Cap SA 12uF for the high pass circuit. With the 20% off sale at Sonic Craft they run about the same price.

    But, since I'm building an amp right now, I may hold off.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited July 2009
    Madisound now has the ClarityCap ESA in stock, you should check that out for your HF circuit.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,395
    edited July 2009
    Face wrote: »
    Madisound now has the ClarityCap ESA in stock, you should check that out for your HF circuit.

    NM................I see them now

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited July 2009
    http://www.madisound.com/catalog/index.php?manufacturers_id=170&filter_id=434&page=1&sort=4a
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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