ReelTrouble, Amps for your SouldLabs!

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  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited July 2009
    megasat16 wrote: »
    You typed faster than me when I was trying to reply to H9. LOL
    Being a one finger typer I have to keep it short and to the point.:D
    BTW.great post it is very informative.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,426
    edited July 2009
    I might be in trouble.............I leave the Aleph on for days and days since it takes about 2 hours before it starts to sound good. :eek::D.

    Mega, by your figures my caps should be worn out in about 18-24 months. Hmmmmm the amp was among the last off the line in 2005 so I guess it's time to replace the caps :D:p.

    Just messing with ya!!!!!
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited July 2009
    GV#27 wrote: »
    Being a one finger typer I have to keep it short and to the point.:D
    BTW.great post it is very informative.

    Thanks! You sure know how to use that one finger a lot better than I know how to use all my fingers. :D
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited July 2009

    Mega, by your figures my caps should be worn out in about 18-24 months. Hmmmmm the amp was among the last off the line in 2005 so I guess it's time to replace the caps :D:p.
    Only if they were operating near the max 105 deg rating.They are not likey any were near that so you might get a bit more time out of them.
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited July 2009
    heiney9 wrote: »
    I might be in trouble.............I leave the Aleph on for days and days since it takes about 2 hours before it starts to sound good. :eek::D.

    Mega, by your figures my caps should be worn out in about 18-24 months. Hmmmmm the amp was among the last off the line in 2005 so I guess it's time to replace the caps :D:p.

    Just messing with ya!!!!!

    Just make sure you have thermometer handy and make sure it runs hot to 105 degree C internally and all around the caps. I'll guarantee you it'll happen....:D :p

    P.S. I know I am a heartless sucker! :D
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,426
    edited July 2009
    Excerpts so you know why I'm saying what I'm saying:

    The Aleph 30 is unique in that there are no adjustments of any kind in the circuitry. There are no potentiometers to adjust. The operating parameters of bias currents and DC offset and so on are defined by physical constants, and will not go out of adjustment.

    Previously the input differential transistors were merely matched to each other, but beginning with the Aleph 30 they are now matched both to each other and to the rest of the amplifier circuit. We select the input devices as part of the complete amplifier, swapping them in and out until the best performance is achieved.

    We have increased the number of output power Mosfet devices from four per channel to six. These are the same devices as the original Aleph 3, and are matched in the same manner, taken from the same lot codes and matched to about 2% Vgs. The greater number of devices lowers the distortion and improves the damping factor by about 50%, and also allows us to run the bias up a bit, giving higher heat sink temperatures but with the same on-chip temperatures.

    The amplifier draws about 200 watts from the wall at all times, and during idle operation nearly all of this energy will appear as heat on the heat sinks. Good ventilation is vital to the proper operation of the amplifier. It has been adjusted for optimal performance at room temperature, but will work well between 50 and 90 degrees Fahrenheit (10 to 33 Celsius). You should leave at least six inches clearance on the sides and top. The amplifier should not be placed in a closed cabinet which does not have forced air ventilation.

    This amplifier runs hot. The heat sinks will warm up in about an hour to a temperature which will not be comfortable to touch for more than a moment or two, which is 120 to 130 degrees Fahrenheit (50 to 55 degrees Celsius). This is normal, and there is a thermal shut off system which will shut down the amplifier at internal temperatures in excess of 160 deg. F. and 70 deg. C.

    It takes about an hour of warm up time to get the best performance out of the amplifier. It will take that long to reach operating temperature and exhibit lowest distortion and noise. This is not a subjective judgment, but based on actual distortion and noise measurements. Many customers have reported that longer warm up yields more improvement.

    The amplifier does not require any maintenance. While the design is conservative, this is a hard running amplifier, as single ended Class A operation is the least efficient operating mode. In fifteen years the electrolytic power supply capacitors will get old. Depending on usage, you will begin to have semiconductor and other failures between 10 and 50 years after date of manufacture. Later, the sun will cool to a white dwarf, and after that the universe will experience heat death.

    So this is where I'm coming from.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited July 2009
    megasat16 wrote: »
    Thanks! You sure know how to use that one finger a lot better than I know how to use all my fingers. :D
    Hummm,I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that phrasing.:eek::D
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited July 2009
    GV#27 wrote: »
    Hummm,I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that phrasing.:eek::D

    Oops...I mean typing using one finger, of coz. :D:p
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited July 2009
    I believe it was in one of Nelson's artricles where it was suggested that 55 deg C case temp on the output MOSFET's he uses is about optimum in regards to performance and reliability.Upping it even 10 degrees will shorten their life span.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,426
    edited July 2009
    GV#27 wrote: »
    I believe it was in one of Nelson's artricles were it was suggested that 55 deg C case temp on the output MOSFET's he uses is about optimum in regards to performance and reliability.Upping it even 10 degrees will shorten their like span.

    Most of his designs he runs the output trannies at about 20% of their max temp rating to ensure long term reliability.

    Anyways, not saying that even the most robust amp design won;t have issues. I just don't feel their is a significantly lower life expectancy of a pure class A design over other designs, if properly implemented.

    I;d hate to see people shy away because of fears of pre-mature failure.

    Great discussion guys! :D
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited July 2009
    Nelson seems to have a funny but weird sense of humor in his articles. It'd be a great opportunity to learn from what he knows.
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Later, the sun will cool to a white dwarf, and after that the universe will experience heat death.[/I]

    H9
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,426
    edited July 2009
    megasat16 wrote: »
    Nelson seems to have a funny but weird sense of humor in his articles. It'd be a great opportunity to learn from what he knows.

    He does have a good sense of humor and I urge you to hang out at

    www.diyaudio.com

    both in the Pass Labs forum and the Solid State amp forum. Unbelievable amount of info and help over there. Nelson is in the Pass forum everyday answering questions and posing as the teacher when discussing his designs that he has generously let the diy community use for free.

    Pretty unique place to hang out.........a lot different than the PF as those guys over there are serious and take a no nonsense approach. One of the most helpful forums I know of if your into the diy stuff for electronics.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited July 2009
    Thanks H9 and GV! It's always nice to discuss things with you guys!

    And yes H9, I lurk in DIY forums and Vintage Solid State section in the AK Forum.

    A lot of helpful info there. And true that those folks are really no nonsense guys and knows what they are doing.
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited July 2009
    megasat16 wrote: »
    Nelson seems to have a funny but weird sense of humor in his articles.
    Yeah he likes to inject some humor into his very educational articles.
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  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited July 2009
    megasat16 wrote: »
    It's always nice to discuss things with you guys!
    Back at ya.;)
    AK Forum.
    I must wander over there sometime and check it out.
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited July 2009
    GV#27 wrote: »
    Back at ya.;)

    I must wander over there sometime and check it out.

    :) Yeah! Many nice folks there as well. I mainly lurk for Nice Vintage amps there.
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited July 2009
    Speaking of Vintages, Here is my 2 channel stack for bedroom system.

    From Bottom

    Onkyo Grand Integra M-510 (about 25 yrs old)
    Onkyo Grand Integra M-508 (about 15 yrs old)
    Luxman C-02 Preamp (about 20+ yrs old)
    Rotel RCD-1072 CDP
    Pioneer Multi-Player For occasionally SACD and DVD-A listening
    Also in the chain but but not included in the picture is the old vintage Dynaco Pas-3x Tube Amp as Tube Buffer for some music.

    attachment.php?attachmentid=41382&stc=1&d=1246501089
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited July 2009
    The big Onk at the bottom looks sexy akin to some of the Accuphase stuff .The Japanese did the meter thing well.I always liked the look of the Technics SEA5 because of the big meters. http://www.adrian-kingston.com/SEA5.htm
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited July 2009
    Yep! These old Onks are Onks best shot at power amps, I think.

    I am also a fan of Technics and Have SE-A3. It's Technics New Class A Amp and consumes about 400-500W idle and 1200W at rated power, I think. I'll take pictures soon and post in a new thread. Big White Sexy Meters with warm sound and very nice image. I would not trade it for older Krells but it's just me.

    And these old Technics were built like real German Tanks. It's simply design is akin to brick case with real thick armor plates.

    Adrian had an excellend info on these Technics amps and his Technics are really nice. I am hoping to add SE-A3 MKII to my amps collection one day. :)

    Edit : One More Picture of M-510. It was compared to 80LBs Harman Kardon Citation 7.1. I've tested the citation 7.1 in bridged mode (450wpc x 2) with the Carver Plats MK IV but it's not doing as well as M-510 or any other amps I have. But from what I heard, the protection circuit in HK can be modified to avoid thinking that it's supplying high current to the dead short in speakers.

    attachment.php?attachmentid=41384&stc=1&d=1246513535
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • cnh
    cnh Posts: 13,284
    edited July 2009
    This has been one of the more interesting threads I've seen in a while, mainly because people are engaging in an honest converstation that is adding to the knowledge base for those of us who are not electronic diagram/rebuild men. And while I'm at it...where does one even get such information outside of training as an SS engineer?

    Or do you guys just spend hours reading technical journals? Even so, you'd need to have some 'background' in the solid state electronics field to be able to process such journals as this is extremely specialized knowledge...and at the level of a 'repair-shop'?

    This is just to say Thanks to Heiney and mega..! Let this thread serve as a model for what the Club can be and IS at times...

    cnh
    Currently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!

    Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
    [sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash]
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited July 2009
    Thanks cnh for your kind words. I was an EE a few decades ago but I haven't practiced my skills for many years. But I have some basics and I did design a few industrial amps back then. I didn't come back to the field of Electronics till very recently and I am always been an audio hobbyist. I can troubleshoot most of my equipments since I have most of the equipments I need.

    I think there are also a few things I missed to address...

    Like H9 said, I don't want to scare away people from buying a good Class A amp. Regardless of Class A or Class AB or Class D based amps, you'll get only 5-10 years of manufacturer warranty (exception for a few small companies in US and Bryston in Canada). 10-15 yrs is a very long time for most power amps. If you are looking to buy a 10-15 yrs old Class A amp, ask the seller if he had the amp serviced before and what went wrong before. Also, ask the seller what kind of speakers he used with the amps. If he used to drive demanding speakers at high volume, you'll likely need to have it checked by a trustworthy repair tech.

    If you have a high power Class A amp (more than 100wpc at 8 ohms), it's wise to run in wide open space and provide proper ventilation around the amp to cool it off during listening sessions.
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited July 2009
    megasat16 wrote: »

    I am also a fan of Technics and Have SE-A3.
    Wow really,thats a real nice collection of vintage amps you have there mega.I'm envious.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,426
    edited July 2009
    cnh wrote: »
    This has been one of the more interesting threads I've seen in a while, mainly because people are engaging in an honest converstation that is adding to the knowledge base for those of us who are not electronic diagram/rebuild men. And while I'm at it...where does one even get such information outside of training as an SS engineer?

    Or do you guys just spend hours reading technical journals? Even so, you'd need to have some 'background' in the solid state electronics field to be able to process such journals as this is extremely specialized knowledge...and at the level of a 'repair-shop'?

    This is just to say Thanks to Heiney and mega..! Let this thread serve as a model for what the Club can be and IS at times...

    cnh

    Thanks chn, mine is a book knowledge of over 25-30 years in this hobby as well as reading anything and everything I can get my hands on regarding my interests in this hobby.

    Mega, GV and many others actually have "hands-on" working with these things. I hope to start educating myself by actually getting my hands on building an amp, etc. I know a lot about the theory and design principles but very little hand on measuring and building.

    A good analogy would be a race car driver who can make the best lap times around the track and knows what a well built race car needs and feels like to perform well.............but has very little idea how to turn a wrench-LOL :)

    H9

    P.s. Nice amps Mega!
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited July 2009
    GV#27 wrote: »
    Wow really,thats a real nice collection of vintage amps you have there mega.I'm envious.

    No need to envious! This may be the path to your satisfaction for Technics SE-A5 MKII and guess what, it's in Canada. ;):D

    http://cgi.ebay.com/FAMOUS-TECHNICS-SE-A5-MKII-POWER-AMPLIFIER-RARE_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ65Q3a12Q7c66Q3a1Q7c39Q3a1Q7c72Q3a1205Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a25QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem4836836df6QQitemZ310152228342QQptZLHQ5fDefaultDomainQ5f0QQsalenotsupported
    heiney9 wrote: »

    P.s. Nice amps Mega!

    Thanks H9! ;)
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited July 2009
    megasat16 wrote: »
    No need to envious! This may be the path to your satisfaction for Technics SE-A5 MKII and guess what, it's in Canada. ;):D

    http://cgi.ebay.com/FAMOUS-TECHNICS-SE-A5-MKII-POWER-AMPLIFIER-RARE_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ65Q3a12Q7c66Q3a1Q7c39Q3a1Q7c72Q3a1205Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a25QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem4836836df6QQitemZ310152228342QQptZLHQ5fDefaultDomainQ5f0QQsalenotsupported
    Thanks for the link,that looks in great shape but unfortunately it's not within the budget.:(
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  • reeltrouble1
    reeltrouble1 Posts: 9,312
    edited July 2009
    good lord, I go away for a bit and the sand is piled up in drifts, speaking of one finger, I have something for each of you.

    RT1--Tubes Rule.
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited July 2009
    You unappreciative tubey nut, one finger back at you.
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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