Question about amplification

Pycroft · June 2009

So...I'm relatively new to the HT world. I have what I consider a very nice starter system. Onkyo 606, Polk Monitor 50's as mains, 30's as rears, CS1 as a center, and Def. Tech Prosub 800 as a subwoofer. Now, I look at the threads here and elsewhere all the time - here's my question:

I see that many people sell other amplification devices - tube amps, 2 channel/3channel etc. I had someone once tell me I should look to upgrade my Onkyo with something that has a jack to hook up another amplifier (Pre out or something like that). I've read some comments that say certain speakers have too much power for the receiver (many times it seems it has to do with ohms - 4 ohm speakers as opposed to 8 ohm speakers). When do you need to upgrade to some extra amplification? Obviously, my setup is perfectly fine the way it is. What are the advantages of buying a 3 channel receiver (Stereo sound) to a 5.1/7.1 and only using 3 channels? If I were to upgrade speakers to something with a lot more power, would i also HAVE to upgrade my receiver, especially one with a preout (Or whatever it's called) so I can add extra power later? If you'd like to add any general information I should know, please feel free.

Please excuse this whole thread if it seems a bit noobish - I speak, therefore I am (a noob).

Thanks,

Pycroft

cnh · June 2009

Hi Pycroft.

That Onkyo will have no problem running your set up. But if you do want to go with better, bigger speakers in the future or speakers that are not 8 OHMs like the M series. You'll need to think about external amplification.

Onkyo receivers starting with the 706 and up have pre-outs for all 8 channels (including the sub-0ut you're using). Since the 3 front speakers take up the bulk of the sound many just use a 3 channel connected to the pre-outs of a receiver and wire the speakers directly to the External amp and run RCAs from the pre-out L/C/R to the external amp. The AVR acts as a pre-amp/pro and processes your sound and raises and lowers volumes etc. You can still drive the surrounds and back surrounds off the receiver if they are an easy 8 ohm load. If not amplification can also be added for that.

With 4 ohm speakers like Polk LSis you'll need to amplify everything.

I hope this helps some....

cnh

Toolfan66 · June 2009

CNH for President!!

Dude you rock in the help department.

Peace,

Larry.

cnh · June 2009

Thanks Larry,

You don't do to bad yourself. It's just that I remember what it's like to face all this stuff as a newb....And it can be overwhelming. Then add HDMI and blu-ray, Dolby Tru-HD and DTS HD Master audio. DVD-audio, SACDs and so on. And good luck!

cnh

Pycroft · June 2009

CNH, That certainly helps a bit. What kind of amps are there, and what are the difference? What do you look for? I've heard Tube amp mentioned. Sometimes I see pictures, and they look very small...not sure what I'm looking at. My AVR is quite big with millions of places to plug in the speakers in the back a long with everything else. Is an external amp the same? Maybe, if you have time, you can include a link to some selling here. More importantly, what to look for. For example, when buying my Onkyo, I was looking for a 7.1/ over 80 watts per channel, decodes True HD, etc. What should you look for in another amp?

Thanks for your help!

Pycroft

cnh · June 2009

Hi Pycroft,

The Onkyo 606 is a mid-sized AVR (25 lbs). You want see big. Look at an Onkyo 876 at 50+ pounds, a Denon AVR 4308 (over 40 pounds), Pioneer Elite SC-07 (40+). All have around 140 watts/channel or so. And all the inputs and outputs you'd ever need. There are EVEN BIGGER AVRS...see Pioneer Elite SC-09 for example?

Even so, power amps have even more wattage as a rule. They come in different designs with different configurations. What you would do is use the AVR as the main unit. Power amps only have balanced/unbalanced Audio inputs and connectors for speaker wire. And not much else on their back side because they are merely a POWER device--no CONTROLS.

Here's a link for a description and pics of a newer 2 channel Adcom that will help you see what I'm talking about. It is heavier than your Onkyo. 200 watts x 2 channels into 8 ohms, 325 watts x 2 into 4 ohms. That increased wattage when shifting to lower impedances is a GOOD indication of just how powerful an amp is!

http://www.adcom.com/data/manuals/GFA-555SE-BROCHURE-small.pdf

Also amps can be TUBE (vacuum tubes) based designs or Solid State (transistors and so on), some hybrids also exist. And SS amps come in various classes (efficiency) A, AB, A/B, and so on. Suffice it to say that Tubes and class A are most often preferred but also a bit pricier than others. That is a simplification of course. It's just that you're asking a lot for one question.

cnh

megasat16 · June 2009

Pycroft wrote: »

CNH, That certainly helps a bit. What kind of amps are there, and what are the difference? What do you look for? I've heard Tube amp mentioned. Sometimes I see pictures, and they look very small...not sure what I'm looking at. My AVR is quite big with millions of places to plug in the speakers in the back a long with everything else. Is an external amp the same? Maybe, if you have time, you can include a link to some selling here. More importantly, what to look for. For example, when buying my Onkyo, I was looking for a 7.1/ over 80 watts per channel, decodes True HD, etc. What should you look for in another amp?

Thanks for your help!

Pycroft

There are tons of power amplifiers come in all different shapes and sizes. So, is the cost varies depending on the type of amplifier and the power ratings and how good they sound and how low speaker load (such as 4 ohm, 2 ohm, 1 ohm, 0.5 ohm) it can drive. Most AVR can drive 8 ohm speaker with higher sensitivity (higher efficiency) speaker quite well but most AVR can't handle lower impedance load such as 4ohm or 2ohm speaker very well. They usually give up while you try to turn the volume up for the low impedance (4 ohm or 2 ohm) speaker. When it does, it usually ends up in costly repair of the AVR or speakers or both.

Your AVR has tons of places to plug in the speakers and other things and you would still need it to use with external power amplifiers provided your Onkyo 606 has Pre-amplifier output RCA connections.

There are Single Channel (monoblocs) amplifiers, 2 channel (stereo) amplifiers, and multi-channel amplifiers for 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 speakers.

I think it would be hard to make suggestion for what amplifier you should use without knowing what speaker you want to drive for. But for the speakers you already have, I think it should work fine with your AVR as you said. If you want more power for the speakers you already have, you can get external amplifier but check your AVR manual to see it has Pre-amplifier output or not. Some Onkyo models do not have pre-amp outputs.

cfrizz · June 2009

Hi Pycroft. Your Onkyo doesn't have preouts, so you would have to upgrade that first to the 706 or higher to get the preouts needed for separate amplification.

As the others pointed out, amps, come in various wattages & channels.

I always recommend a 5 or 7 channel amp of at least 200wpc. This will ensure you can hook up all of your speakers and you have enough power to drive just about any speaker regardless of ohm load.

Naturally these amps cost more money however, you will keep it through all other upgrades to your system.

The amps I'm talking about are all solid state, not tubes. You can get more bang for your buck by buying a used amp on Audiogon. Or 2 good amp companies to buy new from are Outlaw Audio & Emotiva.

Other brands are Rotel, Parasound, Nad, Adcom, B & K, Sunfire. There is tons of info out there so start researching.

polkie4life · June 2009

cfrizz wrote: »

Naturally these amps cost more money however, you will keep it through all other upgrades to your system

Great piece of advice cfrizz!

Shop carefully this is the one piece of equipment that has the potential to stay forever. Power never grows old.

TECHNOKID · June 2009

cnh wrote: »

Hi Pycroft.

That Onkyo will have no problem running your set up. But if you do want to go with better, bigger speakers in the future or speakers that are not 8 OHMs like the M series. You'll need to think about external amplification.

Onkyo receivers starting with the 706 and up have pre-outs for all 8 channels (including the sub-0ut you're using). Since the 3 front speakers take up the bulk of the sound many just use a 3 channel connected to the pre-outs of a receiver and wire the speakers directly to the External amp and run RCAs from the pre-out L/C/R to the external amp. The AVR acts as a pre-amp/pro and processes your sound and raises and lowers volumes etc. You can still drive the surrounds and back surrounds off the receiver if they are an easy 8 ohm load. If not amplification can also be added for that.

With 4 ohm speakers like Polk LSis you'll need to amplify everything.

I hope this helps some....

cnh

Another important poin to be added to cnh's great reply, since you are using a separate amp for all fronts, the power that would have normally been used by the front is now available for the rear thus providing you with extra power in the rear also!

Pycroft · June 2009

Thanks for all the info everyone. Follow up question: With the Onkyo 606, what would be the best Polk Speakers I can run? I've seen people comment in posts that the Receiver just doesn't power certain speakers well. Obviously, I wouldn't be able to power any 4 ohm speakers (LSi's it seems from a previous post). Is that my only limitation? I don't have the upgrade bug yet, as I have a wife and baby (The boss, and the money guzzler), but just curious my options without upgrading the receiver.

Thanks,

Pycroft

cnh · June 2009

Ms, TSIs, or RTIs, or RTI-As, the difference is the second in each series is that they are the newer version of the former. All those are 8 ohms.

As far as Rtis I wouldn't power the very largest towers with a 606 although its possible because they really need a bit more wattage.

cnh

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