I'm clipping.

24

Comments

  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited April 2009
    Face wrote: »
    MMG impedance curve.

    mmg6.gif
    Thats the crossover point which will have the rise as with a normal speaker,but the rest of the impedance should be very flat in comparison to a a moving coil driver because it will not have the inductive rise.It will act more like a resistor (over most of the range).Notice how it levels off below the xover point and the complete lack of any change in the bass range.A very easy non reactive load that.
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  • ben62670
    ben62670 Posts: 15,969
    edited April 2009
    Thanks GV I was wondering what was going on there;)
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
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  • Ricardo
    Ricardo Posts: 10,636
    edited April 2009
    Yes, the impedance curve for the MMG's is very flat, and does not get below 4 ohms.

    Efficiency is 86 db, which is not that low either. So there must be something else to it, because they are a tough load. Go play with those formulas and someone will probably find the reason ;)
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  • reeltrouble1
    reeltrouble1 Posts: 9,312
    edited April 2009
    so what happens if the impedance was to rise to say 50k in the bass and a then a large bass transient hits followed along with a high treble hit with an impendance of 1-2 ohm's??? The amp just cant keep up, if you say the MMG is flat then it is, I thought it was a panel??? why does it have a cross-over?? some kind of woofer in there???

    if you are implying that all panels by design have a flat curve that is just not the case. although a 50k load is easy to drive you have closed the pipe down so far that should a bass transient hit at that impedance a lesser amp will struggle to produce. with Ricardo's description of the problem that amp does not apper to be seeing a flat 8 ohm load, if so why the clipping???? Since speaker sensitivity ratings are based on nominal impedance ratings the 86 db is not even in the park with a 50k load, you can increase the sens. rating by lowering the nominal impedance rating the opposite occurs as the impedance rises causing the speaker to be harder to drive. This is a game some of the vendors play to get the sensitivity rating higher.

    Anyhoot, cool amp Ricardo, only thing lacking is well, the proper output devices and input devices............

    j/k nice amp.

    RT1
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  • Ricardo
    Ricardo Posts: 10,636
    edited April 2009
    reeltrouble1 wrote: »
    Anyhoot, cool amp Ricardo, only thing lacking is well, the proper output devices and input devices............

    RT1

    Funny; I was thinking that it was a good thing it doesn't have those annoying devices that make sound change over time ;)
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  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited April 2009
    reeltrouble1 wrote: »
    if the impedance was to rise to say 50k in the bass
    A sealed or ported box design will some impedance peaks in the bass range that may rise into the 10's of ohm's range but not 50k.As you can see from the posted graph the MMG's impedance is essentially flat in the bass range.
    why does it have a cross-over?? some kind of woofer in there???
    The main panel crosses over to a ribbon tweeter.;)
    if you are implying that all panels by design have a flat curve that is just not the case.
    It is the case with Planar Magnetic panels and ribbon tweeters.
    with Ricardo's description of the problem that amp does not apper to be seeing a flat 8 ohm load
    Other than at the crossover point it is a flat 4-5 ohm load with which his Marsh should have the current capability to drive.
    if so why the clipping????
    You got me
    even in the park with a 50k load,
    Where is the 50k coming from ?That is the the type of impedances you would normally see at the inputs of an amp or preamp,not a loudspeaker.
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  • reeltrouble1
    reeltrouble1 Posts: 9,312
    edited April 2009
    GV,

    It comes from the speaker from hell known as Sound Lab. I will link the whole review but take a look at the specifications on the last page as listed by TAS, especially the bass and then look at the highs, now you know why its the speaker from hell to drive and as you see planar do not necessarily have a flat response by design. Think about the demand on an amp this speaker creates.

    The Sound Lab are awesome though, get the right power and the rewards never end.

    I still suspect Ricardo is having some of this, otherwise there is no reason for the Marsh to clip.

    http://www.soundlab-speakers.com/m1_review.pdf

    RT1
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  • SCompRacer
    SCompRacer Posts: 9,089
    edited April 2009
    No doubt, ESL's are harder to drive. Mine swing from 143 to 2 Ohms and I do have a proper amp to drive them.

    Congrats on the new amp Ricardo.
    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
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  • Ricardo
    Ricardo Posts: 10,636
    edited April 2009
    Maybe what I have is an EMU in a Marsh shell.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,412
    edited April 2009
    Ricardo wrote: »
    Maybe what I have is an EMU in a Marsh shell.

    I'd open her up and take a look......it's very possible :D
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • reeltrouble1
    reeltrouble1 Posts: 9,312
    edited April 2009
    SCompRacer wrote: »
    No doubt, ESL's are harder to drive. Mine swing from 143 to 2 Ohms and I do have a proper amp to drive them.

    Congrats on the new amp Ricardo.

    Yes Rich, your InnerSound certainly are another very hard to drive ESL speaker capable of smoking the average amp, love to get my ears on those babies.

    RT1
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,412
    edited April 2009
    reeltrouble1 wrote: »
    Yes Rich, your InnerSound certainly are another very hard to drive ESL speaker capable of smoking the average amp, love to get my ears on those babies.

    RT1

    They sound very, very nice especially with the stellar vinyl rig he has hooked to them. :)
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • MikeC78
    MikeC78 Posts: 2,315
    edited April 2009
    reeltrouble1 wrote: »
    Yes Rich, your InnerSound certainly are another very hard to drive ESL speaker capable of smoking the average amp, love to get my ears on those babies.

    RT1

    I believe that has already been done... Rich, remember my place?
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  • Ricardo
    Ricardo Posts: 10,636
    edited April 2009
    MikeC78 wrote: »
    I believe that has already been done... Rich, remember my place?

    I remember. Those were Norm's. Sometimes I think if I could go back in time I would grab them.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,412
    edited April 2009
    McLoki's Cinepro arched the panels because the amp went into protection!!! Pretty light show
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • SCompRacer
    SCompRacer Posts: 9,089
    edited April 2009
    MikeC78 wrote: »
    I believe that has already been done... Rich, remember my place?

    LOL Oh yeah...wasn't that a planned demonstration of using amps with protection circuitry on the highly capacitive load ESL panels present?:rolleyes::eek::D Too bad we didn't have a picture of that.

    Yes, good memory, those were Norm's second pair. They live on out West somewhere. That is also why I went with the arc proof Eros MK III composite stator panels.;)

    Thanks for the kind words. Gotta love all that panel acreage Ted.
    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited April 2009
    Ricardo wrote: »
    Maybe what I have is an EMU in a Marsh shell.

    Sig material,,Gold Jerry,,Gold;)
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • reeltrouble1
    reeltrouble1 Posts: 9,312
    edited April 2009
    The thing is with the ESL the capacitive load, lesser amps shudder at the thought of driving these speakers and freak out like sparky on a hot tin roof in an electric storm. Anyway, totally different animal than the boxes.

    Good to speak of Norm. He is likely shaking his head at us.

    RT1
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  • SCompRacer
    SCompRacer Posts: 9,089
    edited April 2009
    I miss Norm telling me I suck. No worries, we got some members of the RAS that are more than qualified to step in and do that.:D

    I got a call from his sister Peggy a couple of weeks ago. They live up in South Dakota. Sadly, their mother joined Norm. And life goes on.
    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,412
    edited April 2009
    Rich, you suck ;).




















    Btw, did I ever thank you for those nifty "toob" gloves?
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • SCompRacer
    SCompRacer Posts: 9,089
    edited April 2009
    heiney9 wrote: »






    Btw, did I ever thank you for those nifty "toob" gloves?

    Thanks:D, and yes you did.;)
    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
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  • zingo
    zingo Posts: 11,258
    edited April 2009
    I like to see the ESLs go up against the mighty MC2KW. :D

    1240857999092370200.jpg
    Jake
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  • reeltrouble1
    reeltrouble1 Posts: 9,312
    edited April 2009
    nice couch Zing, you pick that pattern out????

    The Mc's have auto-formers in them which help them provide power by changing the load the amp sees, they are generally an amp that can handle the load but some exceptions, the Face man gets his kicks off Mc's, not Route 66. Amplifiers with alot of capacitors generally do well with ESL.

    My tube amps (Wolcott's) do quite well, they have an adjustable damping circuit which helps a great deal, nothing to do with power, but control. Another tube amp would be the OTL AtmaSphere and the big boy VTL's 440 big block's.

    Obviously there are some sand amps up to the task, if you keep a sand amp for about 10,000 years it turns into a diamond and is finally worth something, not its weight, but something.......

    RT1
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited April 2009
    Well, after some tube rolling with the Manley, I started to appreciate tubes again. I still wouldn't mind some newer Mac SS or Pass love either though. Each still has their place.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited April 2009
    reeltrouble1 wrote: »
    nice couch Zing, you pick that pattern out????

    Obviously there are some sand amps up to the task, if you keep a sand amp for about 10,000 years it turns into a diamond and is finally worth something, not its weight, but something.......

    RT1

    Ha Ha Ha...Very Funny! :mad::mad::mad:

    We'll see how my sand amp - Onk Grand Integra M-510 with 2.1KW @ 0.7 ohms (IHF) handles your puny panels. :D

    Or If you insist, I could throw in ML335 to handle 1000W into 2 ohms.

    I could even try my Class A (sort of) Denon POA-3000 or Technics SE-A3 to make your Soundlab digging into the sand dunes. :D;)
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited April 2009
    zingo wrote: »
    I like to see the ESLs go up against the mighty MC2KW. :D

    1240857999092370200.jpg

    Very Nice Amp! Dreaming till I could afford it one day. :D
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • reeltrouble1
    reeltrouble1 Posts: 9,312
    edited April 2009
    Face wrote: »
    Well, after some tube rolling with the Manley, I started to appreciate tubes again.

    Of course you did, it only takes a bit of water to wash the sand from your eyes.....although I keep a warm place for my sand BAT I sold.

    Told you she sings, although I heard you have some new bottles to help the tunes along, still the Manley is not the tube amp for ESL's rather those horn looking speakers you are working on???

    Panels, horns, boxes, speakers speakers speakers..............

    RT1
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  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited April 2009
    reeltrouble1 wrote: »
    It comes from the speaker from hell known as Sound Lab. I will link the whole review but take a look at the specifications on the last page as listed by TAS
    Yeah ESL's are a different breed.Thanks for the link to the TAS review, it should be an interesting read.I will print it out and read it when I get a chance.
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  • reeltrouble1
    reeltrouble1 Posts: 9,312
    edited April 2009
    Another little trick is that 1khz tone for the spec to demonstrate sensitivity function, yea, I listen to all the instruments playing that tone.

    RT1
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited April 2009
    Ted, are you saying 50 ohms and not 50K ohms? I am a little confused now.

    Quote from TAS review ~

    "As with so many electrostats, driving these
    speakers is a bit of a trick. They need considerable
    power and, in theory at least, don’t really cotton to
    solid-state (because their impedance rises to 50 ohms
    or better in the bass). Nevertheless, I managed to get
    a remarkably clear, clean, neutral, present, and highly
    detailed sound using them with the Krell 650 FPB
    CAST-technology monoblocks; for a richer, sweeter,
    fuller, just as present, almost as detailed (albeit
    slightly darker) sound, Ralph Karsten’s MA-2 Mk
    II.2 OTLs are hard to beat. The Audio Research
    Reference 300s also do a good job. (Without annoying
    you, the M-1s will tell you exactly how happy
    they are with whatever is upstream.)"
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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