Preamp with bass management?
pearsall001
Posts: 5,249
And no, I'm not looking to buy a new preamp! There, that's out of the way. I'm just curious about how one would incorporate one into a system with an AVR & subs. The AVR has bass management that's used for both HT & 2 channel. The separate preamp would be used with HT bypass for movies & then the AVR would be shut off for 2 channel.
How would you get the subs bass management incorporated using the pre? I know Parasound and other companies make 2 channel pre's with built in bass management. But if the pre doesn't have the bass management...how's the hookup go?
How would you get the subs bass management incorporated using the pre? I know Parasound and other companies make 2 channel pre's with built in bass management. But if the pre doesn't have the bass management...how's the hookup go?
"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
Post edited by pearsall001 on
Comments
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I'm out of my league here but wouldn't you run L/R speaker wire from the same out on the pre as is used by the L/R speakers to the Sub and set the subs crossovers?
Ducking for cover now....who has the right answer?Analog Source: Rega P3-24 Exact 2 w/GT delrin platter & Neo TT-PSU Digital Source: Lumin U2 w/Roon (NUC) DAC:T+A DAC 200 Phono Preamp: Rega Aria MK3 Preamp: Rogue RP-7 Amp: Infigo Method 6 Speakers: Joseph Audio Perspective 2, Audio Physic Tempo Plus Cables: Cardas Clear Reflection SC/IC, Shunyata PCs Misc: Shunyata Hydra Delta D6, VTI rack, GIK acoustic panels -
If the preamp has bass full management (sets a high pass for the speakers and low pass for the sub), perhaps you could set the L/R to "large" in the AVR, set sub to "no". This should direct the LFE channel to the L/R preouts.
Then, you would connect the AVR's L/R preouts to a standard input on the pre and calibrate levels using the specific volume level on the pre. You would have to set to this same volume level every time you use the AVR.
I don't think you'd be able to use a pre's HT Bypass because I don't think you would get the pre's bass management in this mode.
Hmmm, with a pre without bass management, I think you would want a crossover between the pre and amp to set a high pass filter for the L/R and low pass filter for the sub. Something like this: http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/high-end-crossover.html
In a non-HT situation, if the pre had 2 sets of outs, you could connect one set to your amp and one set to the sub. Then use the sub's low pass filter to blend with the main speakers. This isn't bass true management though, as the mains would not be filtered. I would not recommend this approach for HT, as your mains would get the LFE channel if you had things set up as in the first 2 paragraphs.5.1 and 2.0 ch Basement Media Room: Outlaw 975/Emotiva DC-1/Rotel RB-1582 MKII/Rotel RB-1552/Audiosource Amp 3/Polk LS90, CS400i, FX500i/Outlaw X-12, LFM-1/JVD DLA-HD250/Da-Lite 100" HCCV/Sony ES BDP/Sonos Connect. DC-1/RB-1582 MKII/Sonos Connect also feed Polk 7C in garage or Dayton IO655 on patio.
2.1 ch Basement Gym: Denon AVR-2807/Klipsch Forte I or NHT SB2/JBL SUB 550P x 2/Chromecast Audio.
2.0 ch Living Room: Rotel RX-1052/Emotiva DC-1/Klipsch RF-7 III/Sony ES BDP/LG 65" LED.
2.0 ch Semi-portable: Klipsch Powergate/NHT SB3/Chromecast Audio.
Kitchen: Sonos Play5. -
Another thought...
Some subs have line level ins and outs with a high pass filter on the outs. I had a Velo a few years back with this feature. It had a selectable 80 or 100Hz high pass filter on the outputs. This was a nice feature for integrating a sub into a 2-ch system.
In this case, you would do the same as is in the 1st 2 paragraphs above. Then, you would run interconnects from your pre to the subs inputs and run interconnects from the sub's outputs to your amp. Lastly, you would set the sub's low pass filter for optimal blend with the high pass filter applied to the L/R speakers.5.1 and 2.0 ch Basement Media Room: Outlaw 975/Emotiva DC-1/Rotel RB-1582 MKII/Rotel RB-1552/Audiosource Amp 3/Polk LS90, CS400i, FX500i/Outlaw X-12, LFM-1/JVD DLA-HD250/Da-Lite 100" HCCV/Sony ES BDP/Sonos Connect. DC-1/RB-1582 MKII/Sonos Connect also feed Polk 7C in garage or Dayton IO655 on patio.
2.1 ch Basement Gym: Denon AVR-2807/Klipsch Forte I or NHT SB2/JBL SUB 550P x 2/Chromecast Audio.
2.0 ch Living Room: Rotel RX-1052/Emotiva DC-1/Klipsch RF-7 III/Sony ES BDP/LG 65" LED.
2.0 ch Semi-portable: Klipsch Powergate/NHT SB3/Chromecast Audio.
Kitchen: Sonos Play5. -
Yes, I believe he looking for ways to integrate a preamp for 2-ch with a sub, but also use the sub for HT with an AVR.5.1 and 2.0 ch Basement Media Room: Outlaw 975/Emotiva DC-1/Rotel RB-1582 MKII/Rotel RB-1552/Audiosource Amp 3/Polk LS90, CS400i, FX500i/Outlaw X-12, LFM-1/JVD DLA-HD250/Da-Lite 100" HCCV/Sony ES BDP/Sonos Connect. DC-1/RB-1582 MKII/Sonos Connect also feed Polk 7C in garage or Dayton IO655 on patio.
2.1 ch Basement Gym: Denon AVR-2807/Klipsch Forte I or NHT SB2/JBL SUB 550P x 2/Chromecast Audio.
2.0 ch Living Room: Rotel RX-1052/Emotiva DC-1/Klipsch RF-7 III/Sony ES BDP/LG 65" LED.
2.0 ch Semi-portable: Klipsch Powergate/NHT SB3/Chromecast Audio.
Kitchen: Sonos Play5. -
In a quick look, your subs have the line level ins and outs with the high pass filter (80Hz) on the outs, so what I described above would work.
Kudos to Velo for keeping that feature.5.1 and 2.0 ch Basement Media Room: Outlaw 975/Emotiva DC-1/Rotel RB-1582 MKII/Rotel RB-1552/Audiosource Amp 3/Polk LS90, CS400i, FX500i/Outlaw X-12, LFM-1/JVD DLA-HD250/Da-Lite 100" HCCV/Sony ES BDP/Sonos Connect. DC-1/RB-1582 MKII/Sonos Connect also feed Polk 7C in garage or Dayton IO655 on patio.
2.1 ch Basement Gym: Denon AVR-2807/Klipsch Forte I or NHT SB2/JBL SUB 550P x 2/Chromecast Audio.
2.0 ch Living Room: Rotel RX-1052/Emotiva DC-1/Klipsch RF-7 III/Sony ES BDP/LG 65" LED.
2.0 ch Semi-portable: Klipsch Powergate/NHT SB3/Chromecast Audio.
Kitchen: Sonos Play5. -
Yes, I believe he looking for ways to integrate a preamp for 2-ch with a sub, but also use the sub for HT with an AVR.
That's it exactly. The pre would be in HT bypass mode for movies utilizing the AVR's bass management. For 2 channel the AVR is turned off. Now how do you get to use the same dual subs with the pre for 2 channel? The AVR is completely out of the picture at this point. This **** is confusing as hell!!!
"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
pearsall001 wrote: »That's it exactly. The pre would be in HT bypass mode for movies utilizing the AVR's bass management. For 2 channel the AVR is turned off. Now how do you get to use the same dual subs with the pre for 2 channel? The AVR is completely out of the picture at this point. This **** is confusing as hell!!!
I've never seen a pre that has a HT bypass for L/R and sub - maybe it exists, but never seen one.
So, assuming the pre does not have a bypass for sub, you will not be able to have the sub only connected directly to the AVR and still use the sub with the pre when the AVR is off. The sub would have no way of getting a signal from the pre.
The steps I provided earlier should allow the sub(s) to work for HT and 2-ch with a pre.
I'll try to paraphrase:
1) In AVR, set L/R to "large" and "no" sub. This will provide the LFE and bass from channels set to "small" to go out the AVR's L/R preouts. I believe this should work, but you would have to verify that the LFE is being redirected properly to L/R preouts. The goal here is to get the bass into the L/R channel so that the sub wont need to be connected to the AVR at all.
2) The AVRs L/R preouts get connected to a standard input on the pre.
3) Since the pres volume control is active, you will have to calibrate the pres volume with the rest of the channels form the AVR. The pres volume would need to be set to this volume every time you use the AVR.
4) Implement bass management in the 2-ch signal with one of these 3 options
a) in the pre (if it has it)
b) or using the subs line level ins/outs (in your case, one sub would get the R preamp signal and the other would get the L)
c) or using an external crossover.
For b) and c), you would effectively have a filter/crossover between the preamp and amp, to provide a high pass filter for the L/R speakers and low pass filter for the sub.
5) For 2-ch with the pre, the AVR would not need to be on at all. However, you would need to have 2-ch sources connected to other inputs on the pre. You would select one of these sources and adjust the pres volume as normal. The subs volume will scale with the pres volume. The only thing you may need to tweak is the subs level a bit, as you might like to run the sub a little hotter for HT vs. 2-ch music.
This is all a bit unconventional, but I think the above could work. This approach really puts the priority on integrating the sub for 2-ch, so the compromises are more on the HT side.5.1 and 2.0 ch Basement Media Room: Outlaw 975/Emotiva DC-1/Rotel RB-1582 MKII/Rotel RB-1552/Audiosource Amp 3/Polk LS90, CS400i, FX500i/Outlaw X-12, LFM-1/JVD DLA-HD250/Da-Lite 100" HCCV/Sony ES BDP/Sonos Connect. DC-1/RB-1582 MKII/Sonos Connect also feed Polk 7C in garage or Dayton IO655 on patio.
2.1 ch Basement Gym: Denon AVR-2807/Klipsch Forte I or NHT SB2/JBL SUB 550P x 2/Chromecast Audio.
2.0 ch Living Room: Rotel RX-1052/Emotiva DC-1/Klipsch RF-7 III/Sony ES BDP/LG 65" LED.
2.0 ch Semi-portable: Klipsch Powergate/NHT SB3/Chromecast Audio.
Kitchen: Sonos Play5. -
pearsall001 wrote: »That's it exactly. The pre would be in HT bypass mode for movies utilizing the AVR's bass management. For 2 channel the AVR is turned off. Now how do you get to use the same dual subs with the pre for 2 channel? The AVR is completely out of the picture at this point. This **** is confusing as hell!!!
Not confusing at all. At one point, I had my system set up like this using dual subs. Since the subs were hooked up to the preamp, I could use them for both systems without a problem. You'll need two pair of preouts on the preamp.
If you're still confused, PM me with your phone number and I'll explain it. It's easy to do.HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50 LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub
"God grooves with tubes." -
If I recall correctly, you have a SMS-1.
The pre would go to the SMS-1 which would go to the Nikko amp. The SMS-1 would connect to both subs using only one of the subs L+R inputs.
The LFE out from the AVR would be split to go to both subs. You would use the other channel of the L+R input not used by the SMS-1. Make sure you disable the active crossover in the sub.
The L+R of the AVR would go to the pre HT bypass. The AVR L+R would be set to FULL or LARGE or what ever it is called.
You now have a hierarchy of optimizating the subs. You would need to experiment which Velo room correction should be run first or if you need both.
Arthur SchopenhauerAll truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed and third, it is accepted as self evident.
