New PIONEER Plasma buyers ...possible read

bassaholic · February 2009

Found this off Fat Wallet...http://www.fatwallet.com/redirect/bounce.php?afsrc=1&mid=13506302&url=http://newteevee.com/2009/02/21/pioneers-kuro-killing-a-tipping-point-in-the-plasma-era/

pablo_rodz · February 2009

What does it says?? For some reason its blocked at work, and I'm about to order a Kuro...

MikeC78 · February 2009

It talks about Pioneer getting out of the Plasma business. This pretty much sums it up...

The end of the Pioneer Kuro line of TVs represented a true tipping point in the TV industry, one preceded by long-gestating momentum from opposing forces. The recession and LCDs tipped over plasmas for good, and the slope downward will be quite steep, and fast.

As for Pioneer, not all is lost. Reps say that the plasma TVs only accounted for 14 percent of its business worldwide, and patents for the Kuro technology will provide a profit for awhile. But any positives are bittersweet. The legacy of the Kuro TV will be that it was another best-in-class technology that was humbled by the force of the economy and the competitive market.

MikeC78 · February 2009

http://newteevee.com/2009/02/21/pioneers-kuro-killing-a-tipping-point-in-the-plasma-era/

Maybe this link will work for you?

brettw22 · February 2009

When you're charging $1500-4000 more for a comparably sized set, why would it be a surprise that people aren't buying them in the numbers they want........

They DO have control on keeping their business alive......too bad their pricing structure didn't fit in line with the goal of gaining market share.

MikeC78 · February 2009

What is a comparable set? BTW, currently the Kuro 5020 is under the 2K mark and the Elite Pro-111FD is about $2800 all from authorized dealers.

I do agree with the current state of economy and the price of LCD's, it's hard for the average consumer to justify purchasing such a high priced set. Pretty much what the article stated.

cnh · February 2009

I read that article as well, It seems to indicate that Panasonic might hang onto the plasma market for a bit as Kuro engineers jump ship to Pannie.

But how much longer......?

cnh

Systems · February 2009

cnh wrote: »

I read that article as well, It seems to indicate that Panasonic might hang onto the plasma market for a bit as Kuro engineers jump ship to Pannie.

But how much longer......?

cnh

Yes it looks like good things ahead for Panny plasma development.But what I can't understand is why they are losing ground to LCD when in fact in my and many other peoples opinion offer superior picture quality at very competitive pricing.

brettw22 · February 2009

IF you're looking at quality vs. cost, plasmas are a good amount more for the same level of LCD.

I bought a Sony XBR6 52" set that is one of the higher rated for black levels sets, but comparing the price I paid ($2300) to what a comparable plasma (Kuro) would have been was over 1k difference (at the time).

It's a little late to compare them now because KURO is on their way out, but if they had been pricing them more in line with the LCD sets all along, they could have had a much bigger market share. (and no, I'm not saying that a Kuro should have been priced at a Vizio level......)

We're talking electronics for cryin out loud.......the markup is often times 3-400% of their costs, so it's not like there hasn't been significant wiggle room to keep yourselves in the game.

Marty913 · February 2009

GV#27 wrote: »

But what I can't understand is why they are losing ground to LCD when in fact in my and many other peoples opinion offer superior picture quality at very competitive pricing.

Ever heard of Betamax or Laserdisc?

Systems · February 2009

brettw22 wrote: »

IF you're looking at quality vs. cost, plasmas are a good amount more for the same level of LCD.

I have seen many instances in the last year where Panny plasmas are selling for less than name brand(Sony, Samsung,Sharp) LCD's of the same size.IMO the the plasma smoked em in PQ.

We're talking electronics for cryin out loud.......the markup is often times 3-400% of their costs, so it's not like there hasn't been significant wiggle room to keep yourselves in the game.

3-400% I don't think so.I bet margins on flat panel TV's are in the 10-25% range.

pablo_rodz · February 2009

GV#27 wrote: »

I bet margins on flat panel TV's are in the 10-25% range.

True margin goes only up to 30 - 35%

btw... I just ordered a Pio Kuro Elite... You migth by bigger for less, but the PQ of the Quros is unbeatable

Systems · February 2009

Marty913 wrote: »

Ever heard of Betamax or Laserdisc?

Marketing must be part of the equation but unlike VHS vs Beta choice there are no compatability issues if you purchase a plasma.

brettw22 · February 2009

If I could get a 60" Kuro for around $2500 i'd be all over it........i don't want any smaller than a 52". They've got to be kidding that a 60" plasma costs $6500.........It's nice, but why would it be a surprise that if you price your sets that high that the majority of people aren't going to be forking out that kind of coin?

The guy that came and calibrated my TV from Best Buy told me that they just recently were offered a deal from Samsung to get their 52" series 8 on an employee purchase price of $450. That's less than 25% of the retail cost of that thing, and Samsung isn't going to be selling the sets for less than they made them for.......

I find it hard to believe that on my XBR6 (regular retail of $3500) that Sony is selling them to Best Buy for $2400ish.......but that's just me.

Marty913 · February 2009

GV#27 wrote: »

Marketing must be part of the equation but unlike VHS vs Beta choice there are no compatability issues if you purchase a plasma.

You are 100% correct (thank god). I guess my only point (and a frustrating one at that) is that the general consumer's preferred route is littered with the wreckage of better quality stuff left behind for lower quality but less expensive goods. When Joe / Jane 6-pack shows up at Walmart or Best Buy to finally replace that 27" Sony Trinitron with a brand-spanking new HDTV, they aren't gonna get a lot of quality guidance on black-level performance from the staff. They are ALL gonna look light years better (and bigger) than the Trinitron, and the LCD is probably gonna be cheaper than the plasma.

By the way, probably unfair to even reference Mr. and Mrs Six-Pack. Most people haven't a clue as to what technology drives that pretty picture they are looking at. For a lot of people, it's as simple as what fits the space I have on my current TV stand, and how much will it cost me. Sad but true.

digitalvideo · February 2009

The Pioneer plasmas picture quality in terms of black levels are so far ahead that it will take a good 5-6 years before an LCD comes out that beats it. Sony released their XBR8 which is LED back lit and it costs over $3800 to $5300 and even Pioneer's lowest end plasma of 2008 beat it, so in order to try to get an LCD to compare to a plasma you need very expensive LED back lit technology which Sony and Samsung are at war with each other now and LED back lit LCD's are ridiculously expensive and haven't yet given the picture quality of a Pioneer or top of the line Panasonic. A 2008 Pioneer Elite Kuro Pro will have a better picture than anything put out over the next 5 years and my Pioneer Elite Kuro Pro-111fd plasma will keep me happy for the next 12-15 years atleast.

digitalvideo · February 2009

As mentioned before on other threads, you can get a Pioneer Elite Kuro Pro-111fd for $2800 and their lower end plasma Kuro PDP-5020FD for around $1800. Pioneer's lowest end plasma of 2008 produced the deepest blacks of any tv on the market.

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/pioneer-kuro-pdp-5020fd/4505-6482_7-33002523.html?tag=mncol;lst

Systems · February 2009

pablo_rodz wrote: »

margin goes only up to 30 - 35%

btw... I just ordered a Pio Kuro Elite... You migth by bigger for less, but the PQ of the Quros is unbeatable

Congrats.

Marty913 wrote: »

You are 100% correct (thank god). I guess my only point (and a frustrating one at that) is that the general consumer's preferred route is littered with the wreckage of better quality stuff left behind for lower quality but less expensive goods. When Joe / Jane 6-pack shows up at Walmart or Best Buy to finally replace that 27" Sony Trinitron with a brand-spanking new HDTV, they aren't gonna get a lot of quality guidance on black-level performance from the staff. They are ALL gonna look light years better (and bigger) than the Trinitron, and the LCD is probably gonna be cheaper than the plasma.

By the way, probably unfair to even reference Mr. and Mrs Six-Pack. Most people haven't a clue as to what technology drives that pretty picture they are looking at. For a lot of people, it's as simple as what fits the space I have on my current TV stand, and how much will it cost me. Sad but true.

Good post, there is a lot of truth in what you said.

digitalvideo · February 2009

Zero wrote: »

I'll blame this one mostly on consumer ignorance. "omg leik t3h plasmas still leek n stuff rite?". "I hurd they die in a few years" "scr333n burn!!!" "u can get a better LCD for less $$$". Morons... If people actually gave a flying **** about real picture quality and took the time to educate themselves to make a better purchase, Pioneer's plasma department would likely still be alive and kickin'.

I agree. But when I worked at Best Buy and been into Circuit City often and know people who own LCD's they aren't really into having the best picture out there, most people buying these tv's aren't big electronic fans, they just want something that has a good picture that is HDTV compliant and because of the economy not many people want to spend over $1200 on any tv. Vast majority of tv's I sold and seen sold were 27" to 40" LCD's and were the lower end to middle of the road Samsung's and Sony's.

My friend's mother bought a Samsung lower end model around December for around $800, the picture on it is horrible, it's very clowdy, not sharp at all, their older tv had a better picture on it. I'm not a fan of LCD tv's, all they are is giant computer monitors that don't have the pop and 3D'ish picture to them that a good plasma has.

brettw22 · February 2009

I completely disagree with y'all.......

I don't think that most people care less about PQ......but in reality, price point plays a huge part in EVERYone's purhcases (otherwise we'd all have 103" Plasma's in each room)

I understand their prices have been coming down, and that's a good thing, but that's also something that should have happened a few years ago to keep themselves grabbing market share.

I'd love to say that I'm wrong, but the reality is they're closing shop and getting out of the business because people weren't buying (couldn't afford) their stuff.........They gambled.....and lost.

Pepi28 · February 2009

I completely agree with the pre-conceived notion that people all have with the burn-in and leaking and having to "recharge plasmas". Every one of my idiot friends all fell for that stupid belief and bought lcd's that they are constantly complaining about now. I will keep buying plasma until there is no more plasmas left to buy.

brettw22 · February 2009

That also has a LOT to do with the quality of LCD that they buy. My XBR6 is a crazy looking set, and there's not ONE thing I dislike about what I see on that thing every day.

Marty913 · February 2009

Good posts Brett and Zero, a lot of truth there about the misconceptions and perhaps failure to educate people (at the least that burn-in was no longer an issue really never was for most people). Having said that, there is also the "my friend just bought an Acme brand" factor. A lot of people get their perceptions and misguided preferences from friends, family, and neighbors. I guess it's a long way of saying that volume begets volume. In Pioneer's case that may have been a factor along with those mentioned. The appliance-type stores plus Walmart, Sams, Costco always prominently displayed the Samsung's and Sony's along with a price-appeal loss leader (Vizio, Olevia, Philips/Maganox). Pioneer has always been a huge boutique shoppe and custom installer favorite (ie: knowledgeable dealer, quality conscious customer). Not too many folks visiting those places in this economy.

digitalvideo · February 2009

The technology used in LCD is easier to produce and mass market it, again, LCD tv's are just giant computer monitors, some are better than others, sure the top of the line Sony XBR8 and Samsung LN95 that are the only two that are LED back-lit are very good and come close to producing as deep of black levels but not as deep as the Pioneer or Panasonic plasmas.

One thing I can give credit to Circuit City to, well atleast to my local CC is the salesmen were very open and aggressive in educating customers on the misconceptions of plasmas. I seen the salesmen tell customers that the plasmas do not burn anymore and that technology has been corrected a few years ago. B
But at the sametime they were just as aggressive in pushing customers to Samsung LCD's. One of the biggest reasons why Samsung is the market leader in LCD's is because the salesmen at CC and BB and other retail stores find it quite trendy today to bash Sony products and push and persuade people to go with Samsung which I didn't like. I personally found it a trend for salesmen at any store to bash Sony and say Samsung is so superior in LCD's. I do believe the Sony XBR6 beats the Samsung in it's class.

digitalvideo · February 2009

I really do believe that Samsung has a much more aggressive marketing campaign compared to Sony and have some sort of deal or contract with stores like Best Buy, Circuit City, Walmart and others to give some sort of commision in selling Samsung's. If you go to www.cnet.com their biggest sponsor is Samsung as well and that can lead to a conflict of interest and bias.

New PIONEER Plasma buyers ...possible read

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