educate my **** on buying speaker cables
Comments
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"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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also he did ask in another thread what speakers he should look at for 7K. but you know that requries searching. I don't really see the OP troll as much as how your post can be taken. You are stating they are just opinions and that cables won't a difference. This can be taken as "trolling" or trying to start something seeing the OP is just asking for advice of what to look at getting but then you are saying don't even bother. I understand the idea of making sure that the other items are also in line and has decent gear, however if someone is still putting their system together and wants serval recommendations before he goes and buys it, then maybe he doesn't have all the gear picked out yet and wants an opinion on one item.
So that's the standard here, that we should go looking back through all the posts someone has ever made to get the information we need to answer his question? Don't you think it would be a bit more efficient if he told us what he has instead of us having to go looking for it? And tweaking first instead of buying the main components is putting the cart before the horse.
And yes, unless you can show some real evidence that there are measurable reasons that these cables are superior, all the evidence shown around here is subjective, i.e. opinions. You never see the premium cable mfgs sponsoring real double blind comparison tests, though it surely isn't that hard, and it would quiet the naysayers. And I didn't say premium cables make no difference, just that there are better ways to spend your money in order to get improved fidelity. -
^^ Buh.....bye!"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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I have Z rated tires on a Ford Focus. I would highly recommend them to anyone who asks because they improve the performance of MY lowly vehicle. I could get by with less...but choose not to.
Oh well...why even bother...:rolleyes:?
IL here I come.
Why are Z rated tires on a Focus better than H rated? How do they improve the performance? -
'cause he can? I get it, you're one of those "everyone is entitled to my opinion" types. It's all good.
Lets get back on topic...Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2 -
So that's the standard here, that we should go looking back through all the posts someone has ever made to get the information we need to answer his question? Don't you think it would be a bit more efficient if he told us what he has instead of us having to go looking for it? And tweaking first instead of buying the main components is putting the cart before the horse.
And yes, unless you can show some real evidence that there are measurable reasons that these cables are superior, all the evidence shown around here is subjective, i.e. opinions. You never see the premium cable mfgs sponsoring real double blind comparison tests, though it surely isn't that hard, and it would quiet the naysayers. And I didn't say premium cables make no difference, just that there are better ways to spend your money in order to get improved fidelity.
My point is that if you would stick around and look at other threads that are posted, as this one was, you would see what the OP was looking for. Like it was stated before we are nicely giving him suggestions, YOU are saying its a waste of time and now have thread crapped all over this arguing with people. This is NOT what was thread was intended for.
If you feel you disagree then fine, say that you don't beleive that they make a difference from your own experience and move on, otherwise you are just coming across as being the one that is right and will end up probably getting the thread closed.
To the OP good luck finding some cables you like. There have been some good suggestions. -
So that's the standard here, that we should go looking back through all the posts someone has ever made to get the information we need to answer his question? Don't you think it would be a bit more efficient if he told us what he has instead of us having to go looking for it? And tweaking first instead of buying the main components is putting the cart before the horse.
And yes, unless you can show some real evidence that there are measurable reasons that these cables are superior, all the evidence shown around here is subjective, i.e. opinions. You never see the premium cable mfgs sponsoring real double blind comparison tests, though it surely isn't that hard, and it would quiet the naysayers. And I didn't say premium cables make no difference, just that there are better ways to spend your money in order to get improved fidelity.
That's because ABX test are INVALID, INACCURATE, and BIASED with high error rates when it comes to analyzing audio gear whether it is cable or equipment.
Here get your read on, you might learn something;
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98139
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99062
BTW I don't believe anyone appointed you the savior of guys who come here and on their first post make an obvious error about certain cable quality.I am new to this site and it may be my first post so I don't want to start anything, but quality of cables is super overrated. Everyone is going to have their opinions, but monoprice is top notch stuff for very cheap. There is no way you will be able to tell the difference between a monoprice speakerwire/hdmi or monster hdmi. Try it. Monoprice is by far the best hook up site I have ever used. -
I agree that the audioquest slate on audio advisor is a good deal. Also the audioquest GBC that hcmaudio has had on sale forever is good value and about as cheap as it gets.
I tried PNF Symphony and did not like it at all. Sounded too dark. Detail was missing. Just my opinion.2 Channel
NAD C545 -> Benchmark DAC1 -> Bryston BP6 -> Bryston 4B SST2 -> Dynaudio Contour S1.4 -
So that's the standard here, that we should go looking back through all the posts someone has ever made to get the information we need to answer his question? Don't you think it would be a bit more efficient if he told us what he has instead of us having to go looking for it? And tweaking first instead of buying the main components is putting the cart before the horse.
And yes, unless you can show some real evidence that there are measurable reasons that these cables are superior, all the evidence shown around here is subjective, i.e. opinions. You never see the premium cable mfgs sponsoring real double blind comparison tests, though it surely isn't that hard, and it would quiet the naysayers. And I didn't say premium cables make no difference, just that there are better ways to spend your money in order to get improved fidelity.
Ok...I haven't seen a single recommendation in this thread for truly high end cables. It sounds like the OP is looking for some relatively lower end cables, that are still a cut above the average cables. These can be had for very little money...not the "premium" prices that you seem to be alluding to. There have been numerous suggestions for AQ Type 4's speaker cables. With a little patience, you could snag a used pair of Type 4's for around $80. That is by no means "high end". There have also been several suggestions for Canare 4S11, which is even cheaper.
Also, unless you can show some real, factual, scientific evidence that cables don't make a difference, your point has no more weight than anyone else.
The cable companies don't sponsor double blind testing...because the double blind testing method is riddled with inaccuracies, mis-testing, and is just an overall terrible way to test audio gear.
The OP wants to buy some nicer cables for his rig. What's wrong with that? You're saying he'd be better served to upgrade his other gear first.
If he's going to upgrade the speaker cables eventually anyway, what's the difference? Whether they come now, or later, they're still going to be coming along eventually.The nirvana inducer-
APC H10 Power Conditioner
Marantz UD5005 universal player
Parasound Halo P5 preamp
Parasound HCA-1200II power amp
PolkAudio LSi9's/PolkAudio SDA 2A's/PolkAudio Monitor 7A's
Audioquest Speaker Cables and IC's -
comfortablycurt wrote: »The cable companies don't sponsor double blind testing...because the double blind testing method is riddled with inaccuracies, mis-testing, and is just an overall terrible way to test audio gear.
This is a pretty weak argument against blind testing. I'm a believer myself. I disagree with people that say "all amps sound the same" or "all cables sound the same", or whatever. However, I've never been satisfied with the answers that the industry gives regarding blind testing.
I find it very odd that the industry claims that these products are noticably audibly different, but nobody can seem too detect the difference blindfolded.
I think most people accept the possibility of a placebo effect with audio products. I don't think placebo can explain away all the differences I think I hear with audio products, but I also think that it might explain away some of them...
If cable manufacturers think that blind testing is riddled with problems, why don't they invest in a blind test that addresses all those problems? Surely they are not insurmountable? Or is it their contention that a human being must be able to see the equipment in order to hear it properly? That's a hard bite to swallow...2 Channel
NAD C545 -> Benchmark DAC1 -> Bryston BP6 -> Bryston 4B SST2 -> Dynaudio Contour S1.4 -
I could give all sorts of reasons about why double blind testing is inaccurate...but I don't really feel like typing that all out, because I don't really feel like I need to convince anyone of anything...lol
Search DarqueKnights threads...he has a fairly recent one that goes very in depth about the inaccuracies of the DBT.The nirvana inducer-
APC H10 Power Conditioner
Marantz UD5005 universal player
Parasound Halo P5 preamp
Parasound HCA-1200II power amp
PolkAudio LSi9's/PolkAudio SDA 2A's/PolkAudio Monitor 7A's
Audioquest Speaker Cables and IC's -
This is a pretty weak argument against blind testing. I'm a believer myself. I disagree with people that say "all amps sound the same" or "all cables sound the same", or whatever. However, I've never been satisfied with the answers that the industry gives regarding blind testing.
I find it very odd that the industry claims that these products are noticably audibly different, but nobody can seem too detect the difference blindfolded.
I think most people accept the possibility of a placebo effect with audio products. I don't think placebo can explain away all the differences I think I hear with audio products, but I also think that it might explain away some of them...
If cable manufacturers think that blind testing is riddled with problems, why don't they invest in a blind test that addresses all those problems? Surely they are not insurmountable? Or is it their contention that a human being must be able to see the equipment in order to hear it properly? That's a hard bite to swallow...
Jax have you read the links I posted above concerning DarqueKnights research on ABX testing for audio? It is very enlightening and proves that the ABX method for audio gear & music (sensory perception) is not a valid test in this area. It maybe used very well with drug testing and others but when it come to sensory perception ABX fails miserably. -
comfortablycurt wrote: »I could give all sorts of reasons about why double blind testing is inaccurate...but I don't really feel like typing that all out, because I don't really feel like I need to convince anyone of anything...lol
Search DarqueKnights threads...he has a fairly recent one that goes very in depth about the inaccuracies of the DBT.
I've posted the links to DarqueKnight's research in post #69 of this thread. -
hearingimpared wrote: »I've posted the links to DarqueKnight's research in post #69 of this thread.
Good deal...I suggest you read them Jax...it may have you thinking a little bit differently about double blind testing.;)The nirvana inducer-
APC H10 Power Conditioner
Marantz UD5005 universal player
Parasound Halo P5 preamp
Parasound HCA-1200II power amp
PolkAudio LSi9's/PolkAudio SDA 2A's/PolkAudio Monitor 7A's
Audioquest Speaker Cables and IC's -
This is an argument that neither camp can prove or disprove. If you feel that there is a difference then by all means spend your money. On the other hand if you feel that there's no difference then by all means save your money. Which camp are you in!!!
Blind tests are like anything else, the side that comes out a winner will swear by it & the other side will dismiss the results with as many excuses that they can come up with. In the end...it's your money, spend it as you like."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
Why are Z rated tires on a Focus better than H rated? How do they improve the performance?
Probably for the same reason i run Victoracer V700s on my 18 year old stock motor'd Celica. You don't think they improve the performance?
I think you're another one for the IL.I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.
Living Room: B&K Reference 5 S2 / Parasound HCA-1000A / Emotiva XDA-2 / Pioneer BDP-51FD / Paradigm 11se MKiii
Desk: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / ISK HD9999
Office: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / Dynaco SCA-80Q / Paradigm Legend V.3
HT: Denon AVR-X3400H / Sony UBP-X700 / RT16 / CS350LS / RT7 / SVS PB1000 -
Bah, Z rated tires are over rated. I use bias ply on my Vette.
"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
polkfarmboy wrote: »I want to buy speaker cables that I can use for now and later when I get better electronics . I also want some IC's too
SignalCable would be my choice if they are not out of your budget. They made a nice improvement even in my entry-level system. The quality is also top-notch, not to mention they are MADE IN THE USA which is always a great plus. Here is a link to their website and enjoy:
http://signalcable.com/products.html -
Bah, Z rated tires are over rated. I use bias ply on my Vette.
I'm running like.. WalMart tires on my MX6. Probably not a great idea, but they were new and came with the car!
I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.
Living Room: B&K Reference 5 S2 / Parasound HCA-1000A / Emotiva XDA-2 / Pioneer BDP-51FD / Paradigm 11se MKiii
Desk: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / ISK HD9999
Office: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / Dynaco SCA-80Q / Paradigm Legend V.3
HT: Denon AVR-X3400H / Sony UBP-X700 / RT16 / CS350LS / RT7 / SVS PB1000 -
maximillian wrote: »DarqueKnight has done quite a bit of this testing on this forum. There are many other similar type analysis done by various people on the net. So someone (not speaking of you) saying that there is no "scientific proof to back up their claims" hasn't really looked into the matter.
I know what your saying...I was just using sarcasm to make the point that some folks get so caught up with the "science" behind how certain cables sound, vs. viewing this hobby more as an "art" and let their ears do the analysis. With that said, I also believe DK uses both in his analysis of electronics, cables, etc. and does provide very good info. here based on both... -
I know what your saying...I was just using sarcasm to make the point that some folks get so caught up with the "science" behind how certain cables sound, vs. viewing this hobby more as an "art" and let their ears do the analysis. With that said, I also believe DK uses both in his analysis of electronics, cables, etc. and does provide very good info. here based on both...
Your sarcasm wasn't lost on me. I just wanted to point out that there has been scientific studies on this. I am an EE and from an initial perspective it would seem that cables of equal area and quality of copper would sound pretty identical. However, it has been shown that there are other issues that also affect sound quality. From a physics point of view I do agree. However, I choose in ignorance to be a skeptic so my wallet doesn't suffer. With that in mind... I keep telling myself that cables over $50 are a waste of money. -
Conradicles wrote: »SignalCable would be my choice if they are not out of your budget. They made a nice improvement even in my entry-level system. The quality is also top-notch, not to mention they are MADE IN THE USA which is always a great plus. Here is a link to their website and enjoy:
http://signalcable.com/products.html
Thanks for the link
I may not agree with $25000 cables being justified compaired to a $2000 processor because alot of R&D goes into making the processor . But I am a firm believer in a quality made product thats constructed from spendy materials to justifiably increase the price tag . This is where for me an audible difference would come
I once bought a spendy component video cable for my xb360 and when playing gears of war I noticed a change in the color scheme that it appeared to be slighly more vivid especially with the reds . Others may not have notoiced this if I was to switch the leads when the went to the bathroom because they havent spent enough time with my tv or the game
If I had a lower end tv then I may never even had noticed the iimprovement at all so I would say I am a beliver and to me the cost is justified -
maximillian wrote: »Your sarcasm wasn't lost on me. I just wanted to point out that there has been scientific studies on this. I am an EE and from an initial perspective it would seem that cables of equal area and quality of copper would sound pretty identical. However, it has been shown that there are other issues that also affect sound quality. From a physics point of view I do agree. However, I choose in ignorance to be a skeptic so my wallet doesn't suffer. With that in mind... I keep telling myself that cables over $50 are a waste of money.
Yes but your ears are more the poorer for that!:p:D;) -
pearsall001 wrote: »This is an argument that neither camp can prove or disprove. If you feel that there is a difference then by all means spend your money. On the other hand if you feel that there's no difference then by all means save your money. Which camp are you in!!!
Blind tests are like anything else, the side that comes out a winner will swear by it & the other side will dismiss the results with as many excuses that they can come up with. In the end...it's your money, spend it as you like.
Phil,
I think Raife's research proves that ABX testing for sensory perception is inaccurate, inappropriate, biased and has too high an error rate to be able to judge accurately audio gear, cables or music. -
maximillian wrote: »Your sarcasm wasn't lost on me. I just wanted to point out that there has been scientific studies on this. I am an EE and from an initial perspective it would seem that cables of equal area and quality of copper would sound pretty identical. However, it has been shown that there are other issues that also affect sound quality. From a physics point of view I do agree. However, I choose in ignorance to be a skeptic so my wallet doesn't suffer. With that in mind... I keep telling myself that cables over $50 are a waste of money.
I'm an EE too - and I tried my own comparisons as a very healthy skeptic.
The first words out of my mouth were..."NF way!"
And as a continued skeptic, I try things for myself and let my own ears decide, not links on the internet and forum 'shoutdowns' by link lemmings....
H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music. -
hearingimpared wrote: »This may sound crazy but I've experienced it first hand. Don't buy speaker cables under 8' or ICs under 1.5 meters. Shorter runs than that sound lousy. I've done experiements with this when I read about it in the Mapleshade Records catelog in the tweaks section. Being skeptical I tried it and was blown away at how true it is.
This is a very interesting point. It'd be fun to dissect the science behind why this could be the case. Here's my take:
Based on this observation, it seems that cable length and sonic differences are positively correlated. From this inference, it appears that the reason cables make music sound "better" is due to coloration and added distortion to the signal, since a longer cable would add more of it and at some length adds enough of it to pass the listeners threshold of noticing it. It also makes sense that any two cables that are both infinitely short would sound the exact same. This agrees with the earlier made hypothesis that cables do sound different based on the amount of distortion they introduce. The difference between good and bad cables isn't a matter of their apparent audio transparency, but rather what type of distortion it adds to the music that is the most pleasing to your ear. This principle of preferred distortion is also apparent in people's preference for vinyl. Vinyl adds significant amounts of 2nd order harmonic distortion, which technically is not part of the original signal, but since it is more pleasing to the ear, it is preferred by many.
Basically the picture I'm drawing is that sonic preferences and the degree of accuracy to the original signal are not intrinsically linked. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with preferring music with a noticeable amount of distortion if that's what your ear likes best. Every piece of audio equipment adds distortion, it's up to you to pick the kind that pleases you most.
Sorry, I think I went on a complete side tangent, but what I said made sense to me, so I thought I'd throw it out there. Now, I want to go test some longer, "better" cables than what I have now. -
I'm glad you figured it out because I have no clue as why or how I just know that it is.
Quick story. The fellow who owned the Tweak Shop way back when (Bruce Jodar) tried to hard wire a Spectral DMC 10 pre to the Spectral DMA 100, the amp designed to be mated with the DMC 10 pre. It sounded like pure ****. It didn't sound right until they used the Spectral ICs to make the connections. Weird, wild stuff. BTW Spectral recommends MIT IC for all their gear. -
hearingimpared wrote: »I'm glad you figured it out because I have no clue as why or how I just know that it is.
Quick story. The fellow who owned the Tweak Shop way back when (Bruce Jodar) tried to hard wire a Spectral DMC 10 pre to the Spectral DMA 100, the amp designed to be mated with the DMC 10 pre. It sounded like pure ****. It didn't sound right until they used the Spectral ICs to make the connections. Weird, wild stuff. BTW Spectral recommends MIT IC for all their gear.
That's interesting. Audio and psychoacoustics are very amusing subjects. The audio part is pure science, but the psychoacoustics part is very difficult to model due to the lack of understanding of how the brain analyzes sound waves. One good example I can think of is listening to digital copies of music and vinyl rips of the same music. If I blind test them I can't always tell a difference, but if I play one long enough, they just sound different after awhile. I can't really explain it. Maybe it has something to do with listener fatigue. Maybe that's just one of the main goals of enjoying different equipment (or sources) - whatever gives you less listener fatigue is what your brain will prefer more. Just an idea. -
polkfarmboy wrote: »I want to buy speaker cables that I can use for now and later when I get better electronics . I also want some IC's too but dont have a clue
Theres so many costing more than a good set of speakers themselves so I would like to know if theres and speaker and IC cables that are awesome at a realistic price
Also why do they cost so much and what do they do?
Audioholics recommends Blue Jeans Cable website for info and cable.
I had my eyes opened. No, it doesn't bash audiophiles, they are audiophiles. it confirms a lot of assumptions and challenges others.
Read their articles. U will be enlightened. Or at least you will know b*llsh*t when you read it.
I bought a pair of 12' 10AWG cables terminated with locking banana plugs from BJC. Reasonable. I also bought a pair of Dayton SCP-10s 14 AWG with banana ends too, non locking. I confess I bought the Daytons because they look GOOD. I intend to do a blind switch test with my girlfriend to see if I can tell the difference under varying conditions. After her girlfriend leaves we will test the cables. HAH! Got you! Just kidding.. :-)
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/index.htm -
I notice that you have exempted yourself and the other Magic Wire True Believer Club members from this, since you don't start your posts that way nor do I see you admonishing them for failing to qualify their opinions as such. Let's be honest; all the posts here about premium IC's and speaker wires have an implied "In my opinion.." disclaimer, since nobody seems to be able to show any scientific proof to back up their claims, and are always giving dubious excuses why such proof isn't possible. Lecturing only the people you disagree with is a wee bit hypocritical, don't you think? Or are "the good folks at club polk" just the ones you agree with?
Magic Wire! hey thats sounds good! I heard that that even a deaf mute can tell the difference between those wires and the best Monster cable..I heard that they sound warm and cool at the same time! They sound brilliant and neutral with clarity!.. Gimme some! I want my Magic Wire!
Do you take Amex?
This discussion has been closed.