Okay, Guys...the RTi12's Are Ready for Install...and A Subwoofer Surprise!

Intel92

I think I'm learning as much as Mike here and I definitely do not understand all of the technical ins and outs of what you are all talking about. But, it makes zero sense to me to not use a sub. I use a fairly POS Velodyne with my system and there is simply no comparison between using it and not. I had my speakers before I bought a sub and was running them large for a couple months under the 80hz crossover. It did sound good but couldn't touch the sound when I got the dedicated sub. So..... all of your technical mumbo jumbo may be accurate, but in reality, it simply doesn't sound as good without a sub no matter how **** you think the 350 is.

wutadumsn23

Glad to hear you got em Mike. Let us know when you get em all hooked up. Congrats man.

-Jeff

anamorphic96

BeefJerky wrote: »

There's a very good reason to set the crossover to 80hz on his RTi12's right now. His Onkyo AVR is limited on power, and asking it to drive the RTi12's full range is just asking for trouble. The AVR will run out of power very easily when trying to push the lower frequencies of the RTi12's. As such, it will be very easy to drive his AVR into distortion. This in turn will equal poor sound quality as well as the likelihood of him damaging his new speakers.

That said, should he add a more powerful outboard amplifier for the RTi12's later on, than by all means run them full range or with a lower crossover point.

If he plays things at ridiculous levels then yes he runs that risk. But he should be fine otherwise. The 12's are reasonably efficient at 90db and 8 ohms. So he should be fine.

I was even opposed to him getting the 12's in the first place due to the receiver he has. But later felt he would be ok due to the fairly easy load the Polk's present. In fact if he is within 12ft of the speakers he should be able to reach over 100db with his current system.

Mike LoManaco

anamorphic96 wrote: »

Mike is quoting me above. I stand by my advice on not using the Polk sub with the 12's. Why would you want less bass extension and output. The 12's will walk all over that sub. One of the most important aspects of a good HT is deep bass extension. It adds that visceral impact to movies.

I still don't understand why people would use an 80hz crossover with the 12's since the are a true full range speaker. I still suggest using a 40hz or 60hz crossover on that speaker when you get a better sub with more extension and output. Why limit such a great set of speakers.

For the rest of your speakers 80hz is ideal.

Wow...you just joined this forum, Anamorphic, to reply to that quote!!??

Did you just surf until you found the topic on every HT forum??

At any rate, I wouldn't have called you "this guy" if I would have known you were on here; I would have addressed you.

Still, I'm wondering what the ideal setting would be for these. I understand what you're saying about bringing the crossover to those settings for the mains because they're so large -- but I also understand the other members' opinions that my 605 doesn't need ANY added stress to run these things.

I'm wondering which would be the more ideal setting.

Mike LoManaco

BeefJerky wrote: »

There's a very good reason to set the crossover to 80hz on his RTi12's right now. Mike's Onkyo AVR is limited on power, and asking it to drive the RTi12's full range is just asking for trouble. The AVR will run out of power very easily when trying to push the lower frequencies of the RTi12's. As such, it will be very easy to drive his AVR into distortion. This in turn will equal poor sound quality as well as increasing the likelihood of damage to his new speakers.

Thanks Beef Jerky,

I understand what you're saying here, and as I said to Anamorphic, it makes sense; but does he have some points here in that perhaps to get a bit more "thump" out of the RTi12 mains, I could run them at a different frequency than 80Hz?

That said, should he add a more powerful outboard amplifier for the RTi12's later on, than by all means run them full range or with a lower crossover point.

Agreed about the amp -- I want to do that later on, but I still think I would run them with a better sub too.

Mike LoManaco

Intel92 wrote: »

I think I'm learning as much as Mike here and I definitely do not understand all of the technical ins and outs of what you are all talking about. But, it makes zero sense to me to not use a sub. I use a fairly POS Velodyne with my system and there is simply no comparison between using it and not. I had my speakers before I bought a sub and was running them large for a couple months under the 80hz crossover. It did sound good but couldn't touch the sound when I got the dedicated sub. So..... all of your technical mumbo jumbo may be accurate, but in reality, it simply doesn't sound as good without a sub no matter how **** you think the 350 is.

I agree, Intel.

Mike LoManaco

wutadumsn23 wrote: »

Glad to hear you got em Mike. Let us know when you get em all hooked up. Congrats man.

-Jeff

Thanks Jeff!

The wall unit the system needs to go in will be here on Tuesday, and then I'll begin hooking everything back up -- I have an HT installer coming in tomorrow to look at wiring issues with my preinstalled in-ceiling surrounds (which came with my new house) so I still need some time before the system gets wired up...

But I'll sure let you know how they sound.

Mike LoManaco

So, what do you all think regarding the crossover point for the RTi12's within the receiver's crossover setup...should these be running at something other than 80Hz with the PSW350?

BeefJerky

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

Thanks Beef Jerky,

I understand what you're saying here, and as I said to Anamorphic, it makes sense; but does he have some points here in that perhaps to get a bit more "thump" out of the RTi12 mains, I could run them at a different frequency than 80Hz?

Your receiver is rated for 90 watts per channel at 2 channels driven. When running in surround mode that will be more like 60-70 watts per channel. That's really not enough to push the low frequencies well. Also, keep in mind that the receiver is having to drive the mid and upper frequencies too, not just the lower frequencies. I still believe you are better off setting the crossover to 80hz and using the subwoofer.

You can try it both ways and see what sounds better to you, though. Just be very careful with the volume, and listen closely for *any* hint of distortion. If you hear any, back the volume down immediately. Distortion can and will destroy speakers.

cnh

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

Thanks for all the congrats, fellas...I appreciate 'em.

So, let me break this down so we're all on the same page about my setup and the way I'll be running the 350 and the RTi12's...

The SUB OUT from the TX-SR605 WILL indeed be going RCA out from the receiver to the 350's UNFILTERED LFE IN -- that's the only RCA level in that's on the rear of the sub. No speaker level inputs will be used.

Given this, should PHASE be on "0" degrees (assuming the sound is acceptable at this position) and the LOW PASS still set to the highest (which on the 350 is 160Hz)?

Ok,

Let's get this straight! If your sub in is UNFILTERED that sub crossover is COMPLETELY irrelevant...and the Onkyo WILL do the filtering!

So forget about the sub control entirely! It's not going to do anything.

cnh

cnh

Given this, should PHASE be on "0" degrees (assuming the sound is acceptable at this position) and the LOW PASS still set to the highest (which on the 350 is 160Hz)?[/QUOTE]



YES assuming you have done what I said 0 is OK.....but You MUST determine, by EAR whether the phase setting is 0 or 180!

An unfiltered sub in is completely UNAFFECTED by the low pass filter....it's UNFILTERED! RIGHT!

cnh

anamorphic96

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

Wow...you just joined this forum, Anamorphic, to reply to that quote!!??

Did you just surf until you found the topic on every HT forum??

At any rate, I wouldn't have called you "this guy" if I would have known you were on here; I would have addressed you.

Still, I'm wondering what the ideal setting would be for these. I understand what you're saying about bringing the crossover to those settings for the mains because they're so large -- but I also understand the other members' opinions that my 605 doesn't need ANY added stress to run these things.

I'm wondering which would be the more ideal setting.

Well you have been in touch with Polk and you knew about the forums. So it was pretty easy and I have have seen your other threads. I actually pop in here from time to time. The Polkies are a good bunch and knowledgeable.

Thought I would finally join.

anamorphic96

If your gonna use the sub you could always go with 60hz. You would get a little more out of the 12's and also not stress the receiver to much.

kuntasensei

anamorphic96 wrote: »

Mike is quoting me above. I stand by my advice on not using the Polk sub with the 12's. Why would you want less bass extension and output. The 12's will walk all over that sub. One of the most important aspects of a good HT is deep bass extension. It adds that visceral impact to movies.

I still don't understand why people would use an 80hz crossover with the 12's since the are a true full range speaker. I still suggest using a 40hz or 60hz crossover on that speaker when you get a better sub with more extension and output. Why limit such a great set of speakers.

For the rest of your speakers 80hz is ideal.

With external amplification, you might be right about the 12s. However, it isn't as simple as "the speaker has lower extension than the subwoofer" in this case. You also have to consider that his Onkyo's amp section will have a lower damping factor than the amp in the subwoofer, meaning the subwoofer will have a much tighter sound. By limiting the bass in the 12s to 80Hz, you're letting its deep bass drivers primarily handle the audible bass from 80-120Hz (where it is crossed over to the mid-high array). The bass will be better controlled by the PSW350's amp, even though it doesn't have the spec'd extension of the 12s.

The lower -3dB point of the 12s is 30Hz, so with a 12dB/octave transition, he'll want to set the 12s to AT LEAST 60Hz once he gets another sub, but for now 80Hz is a good compromise. He can switch to direct to get their full music potential for 2-channel listening in the meantime. Additionally, the really deep bass where he'll need the most power will be in the LFE channel anyway, which needs to go to a subwoofer instead of his speakers or he's going to seriously muddy the midrange. Though the standard is for each channel to be full range (i.e. 20Hz-20kHz), the reality of film mixing is that sounds with non-directional deep bass are placed in the LFE channel anyway, so either way he needs to use a subwoofer in addition to his floorstanders.

I definitely agree with you about him needing a better subwoofer though. I used to own the PSW350 and replaced it with a SVS 20-39CS+ rig, and there's no comparison. But in the meantime, he's better served sticking with crossing his 12s over. He'll miss out on the full energy from 20Hz-38Hz LFE in the meantime, but he'll get cleaner mids and highs and a less muddy sound by leaving the RTi12s at 80Hz for now.

The good news, Mike: These are easy things to try yourself once you have things set up. Then you can decide which sounds better to you. At least now you know both sides of the argument and can decide for yourself.

maximillian

The 12's bass is going to be impressive, but a good sub will outperform the 12's response. The problem as BeefJerky mention is that the AVR will not have enough power to adequately drive the 12's as a full-range speaker. So might as well take advantage of the 350's power supply and let it handle the lower stuff.

Anamorphic also has a point in that the PSW350 is really not a good sub. Polk's PSW series subs are often not liked compared to other brands. Polk's newer subs are supposed to be much better. So the 12's will have a better response than the PSW350 if driven with enough current.

Mike, the best advice is to setup the system as Billy mentioned and then try to tweak it to see if you can get better sound. Eventually you will want to upgrade the AVR, get an external amp, then finally get a better sub. Probably in that order. For music the 12's are fine by themselves but for movies you will want a better sub.

Realize you can pickup an inexpensive external amp for little money ($200-$300) on the FM. Since you are in the RTi line, which is 8 ohms, let the AVR handle the other speakers and get a 2 channel amp for the 12's. A better sub will run you more money, but it depends on how much bang vs how much buck you want to spend.

The great part about buying the 12's is that you have a great speaker for your current and future needs. As you slowly upgrade the weaker points of your system the fronts are all set.

kuntasensei

Honestly, I think if Mike runs the RTi12s at 80Hz and gets a more capable subwoofer, he could get away without external amplification. Since he's running an Onkyo 605 and the lower end Onkyos are notorious for not delivering their spec'd power beyond transient bursts, he'd have to buy a more capable AVR anyway so that he could have pre-outs... And if he got an AVR that delivered a more honest power rating near 100w, that would be sufficient to run the 12s with a 60Hz crossover, giving him the advantage of floorstanders without the power requirements of driving them full range. With a deeper trolling subwoofer, he'd have the best of both worlds on the cheap, and could then add external amplification later if he finds it lacking.

Either way, I think we can all agree that his next purchase should be a more serious subwoofer.

Sherardp

I see two things being needed here; 1) better sub and 2) external amplification. In my own setup I felt the 12s really needed power to really open up. I suggested Outlaw Audio monoblocks as they can be had fairly cheap. Also the OP is running an Onkyo 605, we all know that most receivers look good on paper but are over rated. I would suspect a much lower number. The 605 does not have pre inputs, so in time the OP may even have to step up to a better receiver to get the most out of this system. Just my thoughts.

Mike LoManaco

Thanks for all the replies, fellas...

Okay, so from what cnh and now Polk support is telling me, if I am running an unfiltered LFE IN to the 350 from my receiver's SUB PRE OUT, this LOW PASS knob is irrelevant. The only thing I would need to play with would be PHASE.

As for the relationship with the 12's and the 350 and needing upgraded gear, believe me, I know it...as I said, the house needed to be bought first and now we have a s**tload of other necessities, so budget has been a bit tight. Still, a receiver or amp and new sub are definitely the next upgrades.

Now, the issue comes down to how to set the 605's internal crossover for the RTi12's...some are saying 80Hz while some are suggesting 60 (Anamorphic); can it be confirmed that using 60Hz for the 12's will allow them to use a good amount of their woofer abilities and won't stress the 605 too much?

Ricardo

How many times will you ask in how many threads? How many people need to answer your question over and over again before you decide to actually do something? Are you blind? Many people have already answered and provided suggestions, yet you once again ask the same question for the 1,000th time.

Geez.

maximillian

He may just want to be reassured about his setup. That's OK. Mike, it's fine to just hook it up now with the best setup you can. Enjoy it. Pay the rest of your bills. Then next year's tax refund check can buy you a new sub or a new AVR and external amp.

Again, as many people have mentioned, you got a killer front set of speakers so you will be set in the future. Enjoy for now!

Menasor

Just set it up now with the crossover at 80hz. Enjoy them for what they are, and when you have the budget, you can upgrade your sub and your receiver later. Just do it already!

kuntasensei

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

Now, the issue comes down to how to set the 605's internal crossover for the RTi12's...some are saying 80Hz while some are suggesting 60 (Anamorphic); can it be confirmed that using 60Hz for the 12's will allow them to use a good amount of their woofer abilities and won't stress the 605 too much?

Okay, someone please quote this so Mike can see it.

Per Sound & Vision's bench test, the 605 only puts out 80w/ch with all channels driven, though it can peak a channel at 144w for transient bursts. Whether that's enough for you depends on the size of your room and your normal listening levels. As far as whether 80 or 60Hz can be confirmed as the better setting, your 605 will probably drive the RTi12s with a 60Hz crossover and not do too bad a job so long as you're not pushing them hard. But ultimately, no matter what ANY of us tell you, this is something you need to try for yourself and judge with your own ears. We can talk theory all day long, but it's real easy to switch between 60 and 80Hz, so it's best to try it both ways and see which works best for your individual preferences.

Osarion

[QUOTE=kuntasensei;1294789]Okay, someone please quote this so Mike can see it.

Per Sound & Vision's bench test, the 605 only puts out 80w/ch with all channels driven, though it can peak a channel at 144w for transient bursts. Whether that's enough for you depends on the size of your room and your normal listening levels. As far as whether 80 or 60Hz can be confirmed as the better setting, your 605 will probably drive the RTi12s with a 60Hz crossover and not do too bad a job so long as you're not pushing them hard. But ultimately, no matter what ANY of us tell you, this is something you need to try for yourself and judge with your own ears. We can talk theory all day long, but it's real easy to switch between 60 and 80Hz, so it's best to try it both ways and see which works best for your individual preferences.[/QUOTE]

Here ya go

comfortablycurt

kuntasensei wrote: »

Okay, someone please quote this so Mike can see it.

Per Sound & Vision's bench test, the 605 only puts out 80w/ch with all channels driven, though it can peak a channel at 144w for transient bursts. Whether that's enough for you depends on the size of your room and your normal listening levels. As far as whether 80 or 60Hz can be confirmed as the better setting, your 605 will probably drive the RTi12s with a 60Hz crossover and not do too bad a job so long as you're not pushing them hard. But ultimately, no matter what ANY of us tell you, this is something you need to try for yourself and judge with your own ears. We can talk theory all day long, but it's real easy to switch between 60 and 80Hz, so it's best to try it both ways and see which works best for your individual preferences.

+infinity sentillion


Mike, seriously...this question has been answered numerous times already. The only way that you are going to know which sounds better, is by hooking it all up and actually trying it yourself. There isn't going to be a universal optimum setting that any of us can give you. Things like this vary from room to room, and rig to rig. Your own personal taste will also come into play.

That being said, IMO, the best setting to start with would be a 120hz crossover point on the sub, and an 80 hz crossover point on the 12's.



Polk CS is correct on the crossover adjustment on the sub. That knob will be irrelevant, since you're filtering the sub in your AVR. Turn the knob all the way up(all the way, as high as it will possibly go), to avoid double filtering. This point is something that we can confirm for you, right now. You don't need to have the gear hooked up and playing for this to be a solid fact.

So, to reiterate, without a single, tiny, insignificant, little shred of a doubt in my mind...you will want to turn the internal crossover of your Polk Audio PSW350 all the way up. Since, once again, your sub won't be doing any of the filtering, and will instead be crossed over in your AVR.

So, just to be clear. Turn your subs internal crossover all the way up.

All the way.

dekuda

Mike,
You are just going to have to try differant settings. I have these speakers and they are wonderful but play with the settings. I would go at 80hz and let the sub take some power load off of your receiver. When you get a better sub that can go down to around 20hz and get a amp to properly drive them then you can take the crossover to 60hz. Then try setting the speakers to small,then try large. I had someone do this with my eyes closed and listening to Floyd's " welcome to the machine" and ended up with the speakers set to "small" and crossover at 60hz. I am running these with a Carver TFM35x (250 watts/ch) Some say I should be running these with the large setting but my ears were the final judge. They should be for you also. Enjoy your speakers!:D

---

Yamaha RX-V2600 AVR
Carver TFM35X Amp
Sony NC685V DVD/CD/SACD
Pioneer BDP-320 BD Player
Samsung 52” LCD
Mains Polk RTi12’s
Center Polk CSi6
Rears Infinity Alpha 20’s
Subs Mirage Omni S 10’s (2)

cnh

kuntasensei wrote: »

Okay, someone please quote this so Mike can see it.

Per Sound & Vision's bench test, the 605 only puts out 80w/ch with all channels driven, though it can peak a channel at 144w for transient bursts. Whether that's enough for you depends on the size of your room and your normal listening levels. As far as whether 80 or 60Hz can be confirmed as the better setting, your 605 will probably drive the RTi12s with a 60Hz crossover and not do too bad a job so long as you're not pushing them hard. But ultimately, no matter what ANY of us tell you, this is something you need to try for yourself and judge with your own ears. We can talk theory all day long, but it's real easy to switch between 60 and 80Hz, so it's best to try it both ways and see which works best for your individual preferences.

That's actually pretty good....since the AVR is rated at 90w/channel. I thought it would be even less than 80. So I'd say if you follow all the advice so far, Mike,...you certainly do have enough power to run the 12s in the configuration noted above.

Good Luck and stop worrying so much!

cnh

comfortablycurt

cnh wrote: »

That's actually pretty good....since the AVR is rated at 90w/channel. I thought it would be even less than 80. So I'd say if you follow all the advice so far, Mike,...you certainly do have enough power to run the 12s in the configuration noted above.

Good Luck and stop worrying so much!

cnh

+1

Those are some surprisingly good bench test ratings for a relatively entry level AVR. I wonder if my 606 would perform just as well, or if this is another 805 vs. 806 instance.

I'm guessing the 605/606 would perform very closely to one another...since I don't think there were really any major changes between the two.

That just further backs up my philosophy that Onkyo has the best entry level AVR's on the market(IMO), if not for the lack of pre-outs.

kuntasensei

comfortablycurt wrote: »

Those are some surprisingly good bench test ratings for a relatively entry level AVR. I wonder if my 606 would perform just as well, or if this is another 805 vs. 806 instance.

I'm guessing the 605/606 would perform very closely to one another...since I don't think there were really any major changes between the two.

The 606 benched pretty well over at Secrets, but I hear they've really declined on their low end gear since then. From what I recall, the new low end models aren't holding up well on bench tests. Power wise, the legacy of the 805 seems to be carried on by the TX-NR1007 instead of the 807.

Still, for most small to medium home theaters, Onkyo offers a pretty big value as far as processing and features. And at under $700, a 707 makes for a hell of a decent AVR if you want to add additional amplification later.

Mike LoManaco

Thanks Capri and cnh,

It's my belief, from using their AVRs for so long, that Onkyo makes AVRs that are good even beyond the "entry level" class; there's absolutely nothing wrong with their flagship or below flagship models, either.

That said, I still hold to the notion and opinion that the "600" class in their lineup is not genuinely "entry level" as there are now a few models beneath this class with lower power, lower prices and which do much less, processing wise (okay, maybe not MUCH less, but...).

I will sure post back what I think about the RTi12's once I get them set up and connected to the rest of my system guys, thanks.

I am leaving for a business trip for one of the magazines I write for to cover the opening of a brand new lavish mega-resort on the Asian continent in less than a week, and the new part to my wall unit won't be delivered until AFTER that, so if I find time to connect everything on the floor in a makeshift setup, or as I like to call it, "Ghetto Rigging" it, I will and post back.

Because I don't plan on doing anything drastic until then, or even if I connect things like that, I have ended my discussions in the other distance thread.

BTW, if and when I do upgrade the amplification stage, I think I'll stick with Onkyo (and I have definitely taken the suggestions for the Pioneer into consideration with the RTi12's, guys, thanks) just because it's a kind of brand loyalty thing, which I'm sure everyone here can relate to; I'll either get one of their high-powered upper-tier receivers, or a step up model with pre outs so I can connect a multichannel power amp.

Sherardp

Where in Asia? I been all over the place out here.