Bi-amping Monitor 70's

Oggums

Hi all,

Like some others here, I just recently picked up two monitor 70's from Newegg, as well as a PSW505 sub, and I'm wondering what is the best way to set these up. I'm also planning to buy a cs2 center, monitor 50s for the sides, and possibly the 30's for the rear surround, depending on whether or not I decide to bi-amp the fronts.

I picked up a Pioneer VSX-1019AH-K and I currently have it set up in stereo with the sub pre-out set at 80 Hz, and it sounds great. With this unit I can run it in 7.1 or 5.1 with bi-amped fronts. However, I'm unclear about what exactly happens when I bi-amp (my last receiver had inputs labeled "tape" and "VCR", so this is all new to me).

This is what I think is supposed to happen, and tell me if I'm wrong...

The Pioneer receiver outputs everything below 80Hz to the sub, and the full frequency above that is output from two amps to both inputs on the speaker. Is there a crossover in the monitor 70's that takes from there?

I want to get the best sound for music. I can set the Pioneer sub out to either 80 Hz or 50 Hz. The low E on a bass guitar is 41.2 Hz, so I'm assuming if I bi-amp and set the bass out to 50Hz, I'll get most of my bass guitar coming out of the two bottom mids, the high end out of the top two mids and tweeter, and the sub mostly just has to take care of the kick drum. Or am I totally off base here?

I'm just waiting on some speaker wire and banana plugs and I"ll try it out to see how it sounds. I may just buy the 30's and go with 7.1 surround if the bi-amping doesn't give me a clear advantage for music.

wutadumsn23

I thimk what you are refering to is actually called Bi-Wiring, not Bi-Amping. I know that is what the AVR's manual probably calls it, but if what you are planning on doing is running a second set of speaker wire from your Surround Back L/R terminals on your AVR to the second set of binding posts on your speakers, that is Bi-Wiring, and IMHO it isn't worth the cost of the extra speaker wire. Your speakers get their power from the same power soruce on your AVR, and it isn't going to double the power by simply adding a second set of wires. If you have the wires, give it a shot, but I don't expect you will see much in the way of improvement. That Pioneer doesn't appear to have pre outs for adding an external amp, so that won't be an option for you, otherwise I would suggest getting an external amp to really get some extra power to those 70's. I am 100% behind your plan to get a CS2 for your center, it will outperform the CS1 hands down. Keep in mind though that the CS2 is a beast, and can be tough to fit into most entertainment centers. Good luck and welcome to Club Polk.

-Jeff

cnh

WELCOME TO CLUB POLK!

+1, Jeff....when I first got my M70s I biwired them with a pretty good Denon AVR...I could not hear the difference between that and just ONE set of wires so I gave that up.

As for the CS2 I have one of those as well..it's BIG. But I'm lucky because I have a big old rear projection HDTV that has plenty of space on top--the advantage of 'backward' technology, I call it.

Enjoy...!

cnh

Oggums

According to the manual, you can both bi-amp and bi-wire with the Pioneer VSX-1019AH-K. Unfortunately, it doesn't really say much other than this:

Bi-amping is when you connect the high
frequency driver and low frequency driver of
your speakers to different amplifiers for better
crossover performance. Your speakers must be
bi-ampable to do this (having separate
terminals for high and low) and the sound
improvement will depend on the kind of
speakers you’re using.

Bi-Amping setup
Bi-amping connection of the front speakers for
high sound quality with 5.1-channel surround
sound.

1 Connect a Bi-amp compatible speakers to
the front and surround back speaker
terminals.

2 Select the ‘Front Bi-Amp’ setting from
the ‘Surr Back System’ menu

I'm just unclear regarding what physically happens (both inside the speakers and with the amp) when you connect it this way.

And yes, I already measured to see if I have room for the CS2

lmacmil

Oggums wrote: »

I'm just unclear regarding what physically happens (both inside the speakers and with the amp) when you connect it this way.

Bi-amping connects one amp to the woofers and a separate amp to the tweeters so they each get the power of a dedicated amp. I believe by doing this you effectively eliminate the speaker crossover network.

Does it sound different or better? Only you can decide. IMO, it isn't worth the effort without an outboard amplifier. When all 7 amplifiers of the Pioneer are driven, they will individually be putting out only about 30 watts each.

Here's my advice. If you are planning to run a 5.1 setup, run the MCACC and see how you like the sound. If you like it, stop fiddling and start enjoying your system. If you think something is lacking, then tweak the settings until you find a sound you like.

j allen

I've got the same receiver, and I could be out of my mind, but I swear I can hear a major difference in sound quality when 'bi-amping.'

wutadumsn23

j allen wrote: »

I've got the same receiver, and I could be out of my mind, but I swear I can hear a major difference in sound quality when 'bi-amping.'

That's the great thing about this hobby, it is all in the ear of the listener. We can harp all day long about how it won't make a difference according to specs. etc, but the only way to really tell is to do it and hear for yourself.

-Jeff

Oggums

J, what kind of speakers do you have hooked up to this receiver? Stereo or 5.1?

I didn't have a lot of time to play with it today (work 12 hour shifts), but I tried the bi-amping with a variety of different music styles and really didn't notice any difference. The 70's + sub sound great either way.

I went ahead and bought the 50's, CS2 and 30's for rear surrounds so I'll be running a 7.1 setup instead of bi-amping. If there was a noticable difference, I would have happily sacrificed the rears. I'll probably test it out in a 5.1 and see if I can tell difference, though. I should have the new speakers by Thurs. night. Newegg's shipping is wicked fast (and free on these Polks )

Oggums

lmacmil wrote: »

Does it sound different or better? Only you can decide. IMO, it isn't worth the effort without an outboard amplifier. When all 7 amplifiers of the Pioneer are driven, they will individually be putting out only about 30 watts each.

How are you figuring only 30 watts (maybe I need something better )?

They say it's a 350 watt AVR, 120watts per channel, and the manual says this:

Specifications
Amplifier section
Continuous average power output of 90
watts* per channel, min., at 8 ohms, from
20 Hz to 20 000 Hz with no more than
0.2 %** total harmonic distortion.
Front (stereo) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .90 W + 90 W
Power output (1 kHz, 6 Ω, 0.05 %, 1 ch driven)
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 120 W per channel
Guaranteed speaker impedance
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 16 Ω to 8 Ω,
less than 8 Ω to 6 Ω (setting required)
* Measured pursuant to the Federal Trade Commission’s
Trade Regulation rule on Power Output Claims for
Amplifiers
** Measured by Audio Spectrum Analyzer

comfortablycurt

Oggums wrote: »

How are you figuring only 30 watts (maybe I need something better )?

They say it's a 350 watt AVR, 120watts per channel, and the manual says this:

That's 120 watts max with one channel driven.

It's continuous rating is 90 watts per channel(with one channel driven)


That most likely equates to an actual real world power rating of closer to 60ish watts per channel with all channels driven simultaneously.

Don't get yourself too caught up in wattage ratings though. They can mean a lot of different things, and a watt is not always a watt.

wutadumsn23

Curt makes a good point, you have to read the fine print. Those ratings are only with one channel driven, the more speakers you add to the mix, the more it will lower those numbers. Another good point is that even at 60W (roughly) you will be just fine, ratings are not an end all to an AVR's performance. The Monitors are a very efficent speaker, and very easy to drive.

-Jeff

Oggums

Yeah I wasn't really concerned with the actual number, but 30 sounded low and was wondering what I might be missing there.

But still, if it's not enough to drive these speakers, I'll get one that goes to 11.

wutadumsn23

Oggums wrote: »

But still, if it's not enough to drive these speakers, I'll get one that goes to 11.

Don't sweat it man, you'll be fine. If that is the one you want, go for it. Only "problem" I see with it is the lack of pre outs for adding an external amp.

-Jeff

lmacmil

Oggums wrote: »

How are you figuring only 30 watts (maybe I need something better )?

They say it's a 350 watt AVR, 120watts per channel, and the manual says this:

The 30 wpc figure is from a test report in an online magazine, Home Theater Mag. Here's the quote

HT Labs Measures

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 28.7 watts
1% distortion at 34.3 watts

The manual doesn't say with all channels driven simultaneously.

Don't worry about it. It's very rare (may never happen in fact) for all 5 channels to require max wattage at the same time.

lmacmil

Oggums wrote: »

Yeah I wasn't really concerned with the actual number, but 30 sounded low and was wondering what I might be missing there.

What's missing is a uniform standard for rating amplifier power. I think the only FTC standard is for 2 channel ratings.

Look in the specs for max power consumption, i.e., what it draws from the wall socket. It says 270 watts. Typical amplifiers are about 50% efficient which says the max power output can only be about 135 watts. That's pretty close to 30 x 5.

You have to be in the high end AVRs (e.g., Pioneer Elite) before the actual ratings approach the advertised ratings.

lmacmil

comfortablycurt wrote: »

Don't get yourself too caught up in wattage ratings though. They can mean a lot of different things, and a watt is not always a watt.

A watt is always a watt.

What differs is the measurement approach, as you note. How many channels driven, rated at 1khz or from 20-20khz, .05% THD or 1% THD, etc. Too many variables, not enough standards.

grmaculsay

Sigh... will NewEgg ever put the 70's on sale again?

Local Frys keeps getting one or two at a time, but never two in black. $159 and the elimination of UPS for the last leg is a killer deal, but probably never again.

wutadumsn23

grmaculsay wrote: »

Sigh... will NewEgg ever put the 70's on sale again?

Welcome to the Club man, sit tight they may go back on sale again, only time will tell. It has been real hit and miss lately since I would imagine their stock has to be getting down there. About 6 months ago or so they were on sale almost every week it seemed. I know that if I get an E-mail alert about it, I will post it here.

-Jeff

jacob.simpson

grmaculsay wrote: »

Sigh... will NewEgg ever put the 70's on sale again?

Local Frys keeps getting one or two at a time, but never two in black. $159 and the elimination of UPS for the last leg is a killer deal, but probably never again.

N.egg has cherry for 179.99

wutadumsn23

grmaculsay wrote: »

Sigh... will NewEgg ever put the 70's on sale again?

Local Frys keeps getting one or two at a time, but never two in black. $159 and the elimination of UPS for the last leg is a killer deal, but probably never again.

Not a bad price for the cherry ones, but looks like he was looking for the black ones. Those are much harder to find these days than the cherry ones.

-Jeff

Oggums

The sale on the black 70's for $179 was just two weeks ago, so it's not likely to happen again any time soon. Even at $230 with free shipping it's still a great deal.

They seem to be staggering the sales on the different speakers pretty well so that you can't buy them all cheap at the same time, and it's working. I was going to wait until they had another sale on the black 30's, 50's and CS2, but decided not to risk having them run out and have to spend more on something else that's comparable. Plus, I want them now. :P

Oggums

Imacil, thanks for the further info.

wutadumsn23

What is going to be your final lineup Ogg? Looks like you are shopping, lol.

-Jeff

cnh

Sooner or later...M stock will vanish! I suspect sooner rather than later. But then we'll probably see some discounts on the TSI series which is a 'good' thing!


cnh

comfortablycurt

lmacmil wrote: »

A watt is always a watt.

What differs is the measurement approach, as you note. How many channels driven, rated at 1khz or from 20-20khz, .05% THD or 1% THD, etc. Too many variables, not enough standards.

Not necessarily. In the case of Class A amps and tube amps, for instance.

It's not so much the quantity of wattage that an amp puts out, as the quality of the wattage that you're measuring.


Referring to the specs you posted on the OP's AVR...

It's rated at 30(ish) actual watts per channel. Those 30 watts are not going to be even remotely close to the 30 watts that a Pass Labs XA30.5 puts out. That's just one example of how a watt isn't always a watt.

cnh

comfortablycurt wrote: »

Not necessarily. In the case of Class A amps and tube amps, for instance.

It's not so much the quantity of wattage that an amp puts out, as the quality of the wattage that you're measuring.

Very true a good class A or a good tube Amp will sound fuller and more powerful than not! I remember a really old tube amp a friend of mine had....it was rated 60 watts per channel x 2 and put to shame a 130 x 2 integrated SS amp I had! No contest. Even though my amp could run 4 ohm loads the tubular machine 'spanked' it!

cnh

comfortablycurt

cnh wrote: »

Very true a good class A or a good tube Amp will sound fuller and more powerful than not! I remember a really old tube amp a friend of mine had....it was rated 60 watts per channel x 2 and put to shame a 130 x 2 integrated SS amp I had! No contest. Even though my amp could run 4 ohm loads the tubular machine 'spanked' it!

cnh

The same is true of guitar amps. I remember several years back, I was getting together with one of my friends to play some guitar. I was using a 40 watt(tube) Mesa/Boogie combo, with one 12" driver. My friend had a cheaper Crate(solid state) amp that was rated at 220 watts. He was also running it through a 4x12" cabinet.

He couldn't understand why his amp didn't sound as full or rich as mine. He's looking at my little amp snickering at first...thinking my little amp wouldn't be able to keep up with his.

Needless to say...he was astonished when my little measly combo amp annihilated his massive half stack.


Just as a side note...my current amp has 100 tube watts, through a 4x12 cab, and I've never even turned the volume knob up past 4 or so. And that's LOUD at that point.

If I were to really crank this thing...I could probably have people from 5 blocks away calling the cops on me.:p


It's all about quality. I'll never go back to SS for a guitar amp though. They just can't capture that tone. You can make a tube amp sound silky smooth, fat as a whale, scream like a banshee and even cluck like a chicken.:p The possibilities are endless.


So...My suggestion to the OP, would be to scrap your entire setup, and go out and buy a guitar with a badass tube amp.;)

Oggums

wutadumsn23 wrote: »

What is going to be your final lineup Ogg? Looks like you are shopping, lol.

-Jeff

I have the 70's and psw505 already set up, and I've already purchased a pair of 50's, 30's and the CS2 from Newegg which shipped yesterday. They should be there by the time I wake up tomorrow afternoon (I'm on night shift right now) and I'll have 4 days off to play with it.

Oggums

comfortablycurt wrote: »

So...My suggestion to the OP, would be to scrap your entire setup, and go out and buy a guitar with a badass tube amp.;)

I already have 5 guitars, three amps (1 badass tube), a drum set and a keyboard and amp. Oh and a V-Drums lite electronic drum set just for Rock Band!

wutadumsn23

Oggums wrote: »

I have the 70's and psw505 already set up, and I've already purchased a pair of 50's, 30's and the CS2 from Newegg which shipped yesterday. They should be there by the time I wake up tomorrow afternoon (I'm on night shift right now) and I'll have 4 days off to play with it.

Sounds like you are well on your way to having on kicka$$ HT, I am on nights as well and know how that goes. My TV is supposed to be here in the morning as well, lol. Good luck and let us know how you like it all hooked up.

-Jeff

comfortablycurt

Oggums wrote: »

I already have 5 guitars, three amps (1 badass tube), a drum set and a keyboard and amp. Oh and a V-Drums lite electronic drum set just for Rock Band!

Sweet!!

I guess you can focus on some stereo equipment for the time being then.;)