Now, I've got problems....

Ricardo

heiney9 wrote: »

I found this a great interesting read.

http://www.milbert.com/TVTFC.bdc

Hmm...it's in the internet.....and it's written by a tube amp manufacturer. It must be true.

megasat16

Ok Brothers! I am not against any Tube Rules. I know Tube Rules for some and I know Tube Rules for others. But most likely, Emotiva Rules for the newbs.

Enjoy whatever you all prefer to listen to. I have tried several Tube Amps and Preamps but I still prefer my sand gears.


H9, I understand you love Pass Gears with some Tubes in the mix. I don't want to object the fact that Tubes add souls to the music. I think it's all comes down to a matter of preference, taste and the mood.

I have tried Tubes mix in my rigs also but I don't have patience to get up and change tubes whenever I feel like.


So, in short, I'll drink to whatever Rules for you Polkies!

heiney9

Ricardo wrote: »

Hmm...it's in the internet.....and it's written by a tube amp manufacturer. It must be true.

Did you follow the rest of this thread..............the part where I said I would never part with my Pass amp..............and I didn't agree 100% w/ Milberts findings.? :rolleyes::)

Oh Yeah and for Mega...........Tubes add Soul

reeltrouble1

megasat16 wrote: »

I know Tube Rules
So, in short, I'll drink to whatever Rules for you Polkies!

hehehehe, OK, the flotilla may return to port, leave back one battleship just in case of a flare up.

mega your cool
cuz in your heart you know

TUBES RULE

Face

Didn't Troy create this thread because Tubes Blow?

reeltrouble1

and cannot blowing be a very good thing?????

RT1

concealer404

Face wrote: »

Didn't Troy create this thread because Tubes Blow?

Oh god i laughed.

TroyD

Tube DO rule...the Heaths will be back up and running and all will be right with the world.

I was just having a bit of a tantrum....

BDT

Ricardo

heiney9 wrote: »

Did you follow the rest of this thread..............the part where I said I would never part with my Pass amp..............and I didn't agree 100% w/ Milberts findings.? :rolleyes::)

Do you really think I read all posts in a thread?

SolidSqual

I think SS amps and Tube preamps rule in combination!

heiney9

Ricardo wrote: »

Do you really think I read all posts in a thread?

Ricardo...........really are you kidding me?

Face

SolidSqual wrote: »

I think SS amps and Tube preamps rule in combination!

I remember Doro saying this a long time ago. I couldn't agree more.

heiney9

Face wrote: »

I remember Doro saying this a long time ago. I couldn't agree more.

I agree as well, but the exception being a small powered tube integrated used on smaller bookshelf speakers in a more intimate setting. Like an office/bedroom rig.

I will say my brother's system is the exact opposite and it sounds Fan-fricking-Tastic.

BAT VK60 mono's (all tube) BAT VK40 SS pre-amp; PS Audio Digital Link II DAC

Face

You do bring up a good point. Tubes can help bring out the low end of a speaker that doesn't dig very deep. But I don't play with little speakers anymore.

billbillw

cfrizz wrote: »

Snort, no they do not, and this thread totally proves it.

I push a button, sit down & enjoy the tunes, over & over & over again, not worries about tubes blowin, transformers smokin, etc.

So you all keep deluding yourselves, while you are changing those blown out tubes & whatnot. I'll be sitting back enjoying the music!:p:D

Cathy,
I hope you are not that naive. Your setup has as many or more potential disasters waiting every time you turn things on. Pretty much every solid state IC has an unknown lifetime until failure. They typically have a low probability of failure and will last many years, but they can still go at any time. In addition, you have relays, caps, diodes, resistors, and yes, transformers that could go,...although its unlikely you'd loose a tranny unless there was a lightning strike.

That said, I'm just not into tubes and I will never be because I refuse to consider them, mainly due to fears of uncontrollable upgraditis.

reeltrouble1

just a glimpse into the Rabbit Hole and you will bill, oh yes, you will...............

Cat is cool
she's just a sandy
AudioPhool

RT1

megasat16

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

hehehehe, OK, the flotilla may return to port, leave back one battleship just in case of a flare up.

mega your cool
cuz in your heart you know

TUBES RULE

When did I ever say that TUBES RULES for me? All my battleships are fueled and ready to depart. I am glad my battleships do not use 1920s Tubes and nothing to fear off the light bulbs be it NOS or Re-issue ones.

*Bwahahaha*

cfrizz

billbillw wrote: »

Cathy,
I hope you are not that naive. Your setup has as many or more potential disasters waiting every time you turn things on. Pretty much every solid state IC has an unknown lifetime until failure. They typically have a low probability of failure and will last many years, but they can still go at any time. In addition, you have relays, caps, diodes, resistors, and yes, transformers that could go,...although its unlikely you'd loose a tranny unless there was a lightning strike.

That said, I'm just not into tubes and I will never be because I refuse to consider them, mainly due to fears of uncontrollable upgraditis.

No Bill I am not that naive. I was just giving the tube folks a little razzin for fun. ALL mechanical equipment will eventually have something fail in time. That's just life. I once had a pair of handle bars snap off my bike while I was riding the damn thing!:eek:

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

just a glimpse into the Rabbit Hole and you will bill, oh yes, you will...............

Cat is cool
she's just a sandy
AudioPhool

RT1

Thanks Teddy! And of course you are a tubey AudioPhool, so right back atcha!;)

megasat16 wrote: »

When did I ever say that TUBES RULES for me? All my battleships are fueled and ready to depart. I am glad my battleships do not use 1920s Tubes and nothing to fear off the light bulbs be it NOS or Re-issue ones.

*Bwahahaha*

:eek::D:D:D:D ROTFLMAO!!!! Nice comeback Mega!:D

Cogito

heiney9 wrote: »

I found this a great interesting read.

http://www.milbert.com/TVTFC.bdc

Hmmm... No bias there <cough>.

I like the part about tubes having "superior sound quality". PURELY subjective.

Then there's the claim of lower distortion with tubes. Typical transistor based circuitry has a magnitude less distortion than tubes.

Oh! And to top it off, there's this gem:

"18.Hardly scientific or objective, but whereas transistors operate on an invisibly microscopic, quantum scale, tubes exist and operate on an intuitive, human scale. You can see the heaters light up, you can sometimes see a glowing plasma, and you can feel and hear the warmth. Everything about tubes exists in a more human realm than hard, cold transistors."

Good grief... Where do these people come up with this crap? If I want some warm glowing plasma, I'll put another log in the fireplace and enjoy my less distorted and more neutral sounding solid state gear.

CoolJazz

Cogito wrote: »

Typical transistor based circuitry has a magnitude less distortion than tubes.

An illusion...less MEASURED distortion isn't the same thing as the important distortion and distortion patterns!

Typical total harmonic distortion and intermod measurements miss the boat as to what's important. The ear tells you that when you listen to both and get over the physical appearance.

Actually, both SS and toobs can be excellent sonically. It's just that its easier to make tube circuits sound pretty good...while few can make SS sound (and not just measure) really good.

CoolJazz

madmax

Cogito wrote: »

I like the part about tubes having "superior sound quality". PURELY subjective.

No, really, they sound better.
madmax

Ricardo

madmax wrote: »

No, really, they sound better.

Well, it depends. What cables are you using?

Cogito

CoolJazz wrote: »

An illusion...less MEASURED distortion isn't the same thing as the important distortion and distortion patterns!

Typical total harmonic distortion and intermod measurements miss the boat as to what's important. The ear tells you that when you listen to both and get over the physical appearance.

Actually, both SS and toobs can be excellent sonically. It's just that its easier to make tube circuits sound pretty good...while few can make SS sound (and not just measure) really good.

CoolJazz

I just cringe when people describe the virtues of a particular piece of equipment's "sound". Ideally (IMHO), the less "sound" a system has, the better. While harmonic distortion can make a sound "fuller" and "warmer" (great for guitar amps), such colorations are usually frowned upon in the search for the most "accurate" reproduction of sound.

heiney9

If you truely understood the properties of both types of distortion you wouldn't be asking the question or questioning tubes as an amplification device. Both SS and Tubes have their strenghts and weakness and a small part of the differences are attributed to "distortion" properties.

One can get a similar distortion property with a transistor, but they still won't quite sound like a tube.

H9

Great article here that deals with distortion (and other things)

http://www.passlabs.com/pdf/articles/distortion_and_feedback.pdf

heiney9

The main problem with *most* transistor amps is they have 3rd order harmonics...............3rd order harmonics don't exist in nature so those that are always spouting on about true reproduction of an audio signal and are using SS amps which are heavy in 3rd order harmonics are seriously kiding themselves.

All human voices and instruments naturally create an abundance of 2nd order harmonics, that's the natural process and tubes re-create 2nd order harmonics better than transistors in *many, but not all cases*, there are many, many other things involved too. But I do get a chuckle about people who own SS amps who are going on about "natural" reproduction of sound when their amplification is as far from natural as possible.

Linearity is also a HUGE factor in accurate reproduction.

YMMV............

H9

http://www.passlabs.com/pdf/articles/seclassa.pdf

http://www.passlabs.com/pdf/articles/leaving_class_a.pdf

hearingimpared

Cogito wrote: »

I just cringe when people describe the virtues of a particular piece of equipment's "sound". Ideally (IMHO), the less "sound" a system has, the better. While harmonic distortion can make a sound "fuller" and "warmer" (great for guitar amps), such colorations are usually frowned upon in the search for the most "accurate" reproduction of sound.

The high end Krells have "accurate" reproduction and they sound sterile, flat and dry.

heiney9

hearingimpared wrote: »

The high end Krells have "accurate" reproduction and they sound sterile, flat and dry.

If they sound that way as a sonic signature..............then they're hardly accurate. That is of course if someone is comparing it to the real thing.

I have to say those of you that know me and have been here and read my posts know I used to be in the same camp as Mega, Cogito and others who don;t prefer tubes. I had a certain idea in my head of the way tubes sounded because of some particular tube gear I had heard. I am now 180* opposite and feel tubes in a pre-amp are sublime. And yes, it takes some rolling to truly find what makes you the happiest.........in my case it's the more expensive tubes.

Not totally convinced on the the power amps, but then I've not heard all power tubes to make that absolute decision.

TroyD

Everything has a 'sound'.

If you like tubes, cool.

If you don't like tubes, cool.

There isn't one 'right' answer here.

For the record, I like both.

BDT

hearingimpared

heiney9 wrote: »

If they sound that way as a sonic signature..............then they're hardly accurate. That is of course if someone is comparing it to the real thing.

I have to say those of you that know me and have been here and read my posts know I used to be in the same camp as Mega, Cogito and others who don;t prefer tubes. I had a certain idea in my head of the way tubes sounded because of some particular tube gear I had heard. I am now 180* opposite and feel tubes in a pre-amp are sublime. And yes, it takes some rolling to truly find what makes you the happiest.........in my case it's the more expensive tubes.

Not totally convinced on the the power amps, but then I've not heard all power tubes to make that absolute decision.

For the record Brock I was the same way and I still am up in air with tube amps. I like the tube amps sound but I don't want all the hassles. However I love the sound of a tube pre with a sand amp.

sucks2beme

My ARC is very neutral sounding. That's what they are noted for.
My Millett minimax hybrid tube amp for headphones is a match
for anything under a grand. But , yes, I've heard lots of mushy
bass tube gear. And I owned a Halcro pre that defined the
term "sterile" for SS gear. That one was in and out in a couple of days.

There's a reason why the world went to SS. Yes, it lasts for years.
And there's SS that sounds very good. But, how many times you hear of a guy swapping gear at night and blows that expensive SS gear?

The best thing about the ARC is all parts are still available for it.
No fancy tubes, just standard off the shelf stuff. Now if it was just
100wpc instead of 50wpc ..........................................