So... why can't I tell a difference between my Denon 3910 and 2200?

dbaldus

Hello everyone,

I recently picked up a Denon DVD 3910 to replace my Denon DVD 2200. From all of the reviews of the 3910, I was expecting a huge difference in sound quality between the two. However, I've done some serious listening and cannot tell any difference at all!

Before I decide to sell the 3910, I just wanted to make sure there weren't any settings I'm missing in the player? I know a lot of people love this thing (and I agree, it DOES sound fantastic) but its just not up to what I expected when compared to the 2200. Could someone help me out here to get better performance out of the 3910? I feel like I may be missing something somewhere as everyone else seems to love this player...

Just to lay things out for everyone here, this is what I have done for testing:
1. 2200 connected to the CD input on the PL/D 1100 pre-amp
2. 3910 connected to the Direct input on the PL/D 1100 pre-amp
3. Took two copies of the same CD (full redbook quality) and played them at the same time on each player (both started at the exact same time so they were in sync)
4. Switched back and forth between the CD and Direct input and listened for differences

I have done this with 5-7 CDs and can tell absolutely no difference whatsoever while switching between the two sources on the pre-amp.

I have also listened to a couple of SACDs (Pink Floyd - Dark Side of the Moon, NIN - The Downward Spiral), some DVD-Audio discs (The Beatles - Love, NIN - With Teeth) and some stereo 24-bit/96kHz recording (NIN - The Slip and NIN - Ghosts I-IV). While I don't have multiple copies of these on hand, I switched back and forth between players, listening to sections I was familiar with, and could not tell a difference either.

My setup is listed in my signature. For cables, I'm using Signal Cable Analog II Interconnects all around and AudioQuest Type-4 speaker cables. I am using analog outs on the 3910 and 2200 to let the players do the decoding.

Thanks everyone!
Derek

steveinaz

Changes like this can very subtle, but real. You'll need a week or two of listening thru as many of your Discs as possible to begin to hear the differences. Same can be true of most DAC's.

Connect up ONLY the 3910, and listen for a couple weeks---any changes will be more apparent then. During this listening period, don't make any other changes.

After the 2 weeks, remove the 3910 and reconnect the 2200. Give another critical listening comparison.

dbaldus

Steve,

Thanks for the idea - I'll definitely give that a try before I decide what I'm going to do.

Also, I'm glad to hear your response as I was on the fence between getting a 3910 and a DAC1 to use with my 2200. I opted for the 3910 just for the price difference for now, but am now considering selling the 3910 and getting the DAC1 instead. In your opinion, would you think the DAC1 + 2200 would be better than the 3910 on its own? I'm looking for a bigger difference than going from the 2200 to the 3910 as I'm not quite sure I can justify spending loads of money for a "subtle" difference in sound quality. At this point in my audio career, I'm looking to spend money to make more noticeable differences (such as when I got my SDAs, the amp to power them, or the pre-amp). Unfortunately, at this point in my system's life, I'm starting to feel that that time may be up

Your opinion would be much appreciated as I was planning to contact you regarding your DAC1 in the future anyway.

Thanks again

concealer404

I think you'd see a bigger improvement using the DAC1 with the 2200 vs. just going from 2200 to 3910.

There won't be much difference at all between the 3910 + DAC1 and 2200 + DAC1, because at that point, you're just using the player as a transport.

tcrossma

Have you made sure to turn off all extra circuitry on the 3910 but pressing the bottom right button on the front panel until it shows "all off"?

steveinaz

dbaldus wrote: »

Steve,

In your opinion, would you think the DAC1 + 2200 would be better than the 3910 on its own?

Thanks again

Oh absolutely. Not to mention the verstility of the DAC1 to be used as a preamp/line level/ and headphone setup. I had a 2910, it couldn't light the Benchmarks power switch in terms of sound reproduction.

I'd recommend going with the DAC1/USB or DAC/PRE as these 2 versions have the upgraded opamps in the analog stage.

dbaldus

tcrossma wrote: »

Have you made sure to turn off all extra circuitry on the 3910 but pressing the bottom right button on the front panel until it shows "all off"?

Yep.

I've also toggled the "Source Direct" mode and cannot tell a difference either.

vc69

I think steveinaz has a good suggestion.
I know that I personally have to live with a piece of gear for awhile before it's strengths and weakness are revealed to me.

dbaldus

steveinaz wrote: »

Oh absolutely. Not to mention the verstility of the DAC1 to be used as a preamp/line level/ and headphone setup. I had a 2910, it couldn't light the Benchmarks power switch in terms of sound reproduction.

I'd recommend going with the DAC1/USB or DAC/PRE as these to versions have the upgraded opamps in the analog stage.

So you wouldn't consider the difference between your 2910 doing the processing and your DAC1 doing the processing "subtle" then?

I'd like to get the DAC/PRE, but am just looking at the original because its about half the price and I already have a nice pre-amp. However, I guess I would consider the PRE version if it really is that much better than the original. Would just have to save up quite a bit longer...

steveinaz

"Subtle" is a very subjective term; and it's going to depend largely on the resolution of your system as a whole. To put it in perspective, differences were immediately noticeable when the Benchmark was in system, vs the 2910's analog outputs. Not that the 2910 sounded bad--it didn't; but through the Benchmark sounded better. My CD player is a different beast. It's a little tougher to hear the differences between its analog outputs and the same signal fed thru the Benchmark, but after a few hours the differences become more apparent.

To me, the Denon's sound a little "soft." I think they're trying to pull off a more pleasing sound, instead of maximum resolution. They are a very easy player to listen to, which is why they are so popular, but the Benchmark will give you both resolution AND listenability with an extremely neutral tonal character, IMO.

The only "real" difference between the DAC/PRE and USB/DAC is that the PRE has more inputs and an analog input. Both can be used line level or as preamlpifiers. I use my DAC/PRE as my preamplifier--and I love it. All my sources are digital (plus I do have 1 analog input).

hoosier21

it is possible you will never hear a difference and have wasted your money.

sell the more expensive 3910 and be happy.

steveinaz

dbaldus wrote: »

However, I guess I would consider the PRE version if it really is that much better than the original. Would just have to save up quite a bit longer...

My first Benchmark was the DAC1. I'll try to compare for you:

The differences between the DAC1 and the DAC/PRE (also the DAC/USB) that I noticed were extremely subtle. I did note a very slightly cleaner treble, with less edge; and bass seem to dig just a little deeper. I don't think the differences are great enough to justify a jump to the DAC/PRE (unless you are wanting specific features of the PRE), but I would go from the DAC1 to the DAC/USB. I think the upgraded opamps are making the difference, but you'd have to be mighty fussy for it to be a deal breaker.

Some other factors with the DAC1; the tiny toggle switch for selecting your input seems fragile, and could be difficult to operate with big fingers. I like the source select knob on the USB and PRE versions better. Benchmark also dimmed-down the LED a bit on the 2 newer versions---another plus. The DAC1 is ON all the time, the USB and PRE have a "standby" mode.

Just something to think about.

dbaldus

steveinaz wrote: »

My first Benchmark was the DAC1. I'll try to compare for you:

The differences between the DAC1 and the DAC/PRE (also the DAC/USB) that I noticed were extremely subtle. I did note a very slightly cleaner treble, with less edge; and bass seem to dig just a little deeper. I don't think the differences are great enough to justify a jump to the DAC/PRE (unless you are wanting specific features of the PRE), but I would go from the DAC1 to the DAC/USB. I think the upgraded opamps are making the difference, but you'd have to be mighty fussy for it to be a deal breaker.

Some other factors with the DAC1; the tiny toggle switch for selecting your input seems fragile, and could be difficult to operate with big fingers. I like the source select knob on the USB and PRE versions better. Benchmark also dimmed-down the LED a bit on the 2 newer versions---another plus. The DAC1 is ON all the time, the USB and PRE have a "standby" mode.

Just something to think about.

Excellent information - thanks a lot!

I'm definitely going to give the 3910 a try for another week or two before swapping it out with the 2200 again, but at this point I'm just a little bit discouraged by the fact that I can't notice a difference immediately when switching between the sources playing the same CD in sync. It sounds like pairing the 2200 with the DAC1 or DAC1 USB would probably give me that difference I'm looking for.

Thanks again for all of the information - I'll keep you posted on what I do.

steveinaz

I just noticed that Benchmark isn't showing the standard DAC1 anymore on their website. Still good info if you buy used though.

With your system, and the fact that you really like your pre, I'd get the DAC/USB model. You have the resolution in your components to capitalize on the Benchmarks strengths. If you do pick up a Benchmark, try it in preamp mode, I think you'll be in for a surprise.

FWIW, I seriously doubt I would hear differences between those 2 DVD players via their analog outputs.

mmadden28

dbaldus wrote: »

...
3. Took two copies of the same CD (full redbook quality) and played them at the same time on each player (both started at the exact same time so they were in sync)
4. Switched back and forth between the CD and Direct input and listened for differences
...

Just a suggestion...Don't start them at exactly the same time. Start Player B 5-10 seconds (or however long) after Player A. That way when you listen to something on player A and switch to Player B, you'll hear the exact same passage you just heard. If they are in sync then you aren't doing an exact comparison, but comparing different passages of the music.

I have a very short audio memory. I had the hardest time doing AB comparisons until I did it with a delay.

dbaldus

mmadden28 wrote: »

Just a suggestion...Don't start them at exactly the same time. Start Player B 5-10 seconds (or however long) after Player A. That way when you listen to something on player A and switch to Player B, you'll hear the exact same passage you just heard. If they are in sync then you aren't doing an exact comparison, but comparing different passages of the music.

I have a very short audio memory. I had the hardest time doing AB comparisons until I did it with a delay.

Nice - I like this idea. Thanks!

vc69

dbaldus wrote: »

Nice - I like this idea. Thanks!

That is my preferred method as well...15-30 seconds offset between the two.

Careful level matching is recommended as well.

dbaldus

steveinaz wrote: »

FWIW, I seriously doubt I would hear differences between those 2 DVD players via their analog outputs.

Definitely surprised to hear this. Actually, I was thinking that the differences between the two were going to be the stronger analog output section and superior DACs in the 3910...

Am I mistaken, or why do you think you would not hear a difference between the 2 players via analog outs?

pearsall001

You're going to drive yourself crazy trying to hear a difference between those two players. Save your money.

cnh

steveinaz wrote: »

"Subtle" is a very subjective term; and it's going to depend largely on the resolution of your system as a whole. To put it in perspective, differences were immediately noticeable when the Benchmark was in system, vs the 2910's analog outputs. Not that the 2910 sounded bad--it didn't; but through the Benchmark sounded better. My CD player is a different beast. It's a little tougher to hear the differences between its analog outputs and the same signal fed thru the Benchmark, but after a few hours the differences become more apparent.

To me, the Denon's sound a little "soft." I think they're trying to pull off a more pleasing sound, instead of maximum resolution. They are a very easy player to listen to, which is why they are so popular, but the Benchmark will give you both resolution AND listenability with an extremely neutral tonal character, IMO.

The only "real" difference between the DAC/PRE and USB/DAC is that the PRE has more inputs and an analog input. Both can be used line level or as preamlpifiers. I use my DAC/PRE as my preamplifier--and I love it. All my sources are digital (plus I do have 1 analog input).

This is a very interesting discussion...there is always a lot of subjectivity involved in listening of course...but from your view of the Denon above it sounds like I would love this player. I tend to 'like' soft. It is very RARE to hear superior 'detail' that does not have too much of an edge for me. When I think about 'live' music in a concert hall I remember how the halls are treated to prevent reflections/brightness, etc, and actually make the music (at least for me) a bit warmer!

cnh

steveinaz

Keep in mind, that's my subjective observation with the Denons. I think it's also the Marantz "house sound" to favor soft, warm over articulatation and brutal neutrality. Synergy and balance is key. If I were running tubed amp and pre, I'd probably go with a very neutral, articulate source to balance out what might otherwise be too warm of a system; sort of like people doing the tubed pre with the ss amp thing.

If your speakers lean to the bright side of things, Denon, Marantz, Ah! Njoe Toeb, or Rega might be a good match for a source.

cnh

Agreed. I also look at Marantz in that same way...so I think our perceptions are probably more similar than different...but that our preferences are probably different since I prefer that sound--that's subjective too....I know a lot of people like to hear ALL the extra detail and that's cool!

cnh

steveinaz

I tend to prefer laid-back, and my Energy C-9's give me that. I like listening at fairly loud levels on occassion, and laid back speaker system makes for a non-fatiquing experience.

sk1939

Why can't you tell the difference? Maybe there isn't enough of one. Wait a few weeks, then retry both players again, if you still hear no difference, return the 3910.