Yes, another stupid question :) AVR's and True HD

Pycroft

Hi again,

I think I read someone talking about the newest codecs - TrueHD, DTS Master, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your AVR does NOT have to be able to decode those to get True HD sound as long as your BD player can do it? I have an Onkyo 606, and a Panasonic BD35. The 606 does decode the new codecs, but I'm looking to get another AVR with preouts, have narrowed the choices consierably. But...if it's true that the avr does not need to decode them for me to get true hd sound, perhaps I can look at a cheaper AVR with preouts? What am I missing?

As always, thanks...

James

kawizx9r

You don't need an AVR that internally decodes in order to get the new formats.

What you will need is; an AVR that has multi-channel analog inputs, a bluray player that internally decodes the new codecs and sends that signal over LCPM (multi channel analog outputs), and of course interconnects for all channels being used.

Pycroft

And can someone let me know if I have that Not sure the technical stuff with this bluray, and have no idea what any of that means really FYI, I was lookig at the Denon 1910 and the HK 254 for AVR's. I've seen some used ones - i.e. a HK 335 (Sold already), but I didn't consider because it didn't decode the new codecs. Just want to make sure i know my options before jumping ahead with all of this.

Thanks again

kawizx9r

Usually C-Net reviews and other sites will tell you right off the bat, otherwise check your manual or online at the manufacturer site.

As for an AVR, the 254 isn't bad and I considered picking one up but I've heard people having issues with it. Depending on how much you want to spend on that AVR, will determine what you'll get (uhm, that's pretty obvious lol). But if you don't require HDMI inputs on an AVR, you can pick up a used/older model AVR of better build quality/pre outs/bells+whistles for the same coin as a newer model.

Pycroft

Here's what I found out about the BD35 from CNET -

Connectivity is standard on the DMP-BD35. The HDMI output is the most important connection, capable of outputting high-def video up to 1080p resolution, as well as high-resolution multichannel audio.

The Panasonic DMP-BD35 significantly changes the game. It's a Profile 2.0-compliant player with onboard decoding for both Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio, and it carries a $300 list price.

Soundtrack support is comprehensive on the DMP-BD35. It has onboard decoding for all high-resolution soundtrack formats, including Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio, so you don't need a new receiver to take advantage of the improved audio quality. The player can also output high-resolution soundtracks in bit-stream format, so you can opt to let your AV receiver handle the decoding duties itself.


SO....it seems this will work...the question is...will I lose anything from doing it this way? If not, I can basically buy ANY AVR with preouts, and it will work well???

Thanks agian!

kawizx9r

You're confusing preouts with multichannel analog inputs it seems like

Preouts on an AVR are used for sending the signal (that your AVR is currently dealing with) out to an external amplifier.

Multichannel analog inputs, AKA 5.1/6.1/7.1 EXT IN on the rear of most AVR's, allow you to accept said-outputs from a DVD/BDP if it indeed has them. It's basically 6-8 RCA inputs, one is used per channel.

Edit: Added this pic of the rear of my AVR (not my actual one but same model). You see the 8 rca inputs on the bottom left? Thats my multi channel analog input, to the right above the speaker terminals are my preamp outputs.

Pycroft

Thanks...I meant that my only real requirement is to get an AVR with pre-outs...so I when I said, "SO....it seems this will work...the question is...will I lose anything from doing it this way? If not, I can basically buy ANY AVR with preouts, and it will work well???" I basically meant that I can get an AVR with Preouts (My requirement) and not worry at all about the codecs. There are other HK, like the 347. I believe that has preouts, but does not decode the codecs. Will I lose any quality doing something like that?

kawizx9r

Just the way there are audiophiles here, the same can be said about those that have a passion for home theater. I've always read that analog is indeed the way to go, but that all depends on the gear itself (what is decoding what) and your interconnects. I'd go that route but my priorities are stuck in 2-chan mode

Pycroft

Great...thanks Kawizx9r...looking forward to hearing others opinions.

Mike LoManaco

This has been at the forefront of issues for me since jumping onto the BD bandwagon...

You DO NOT need an AVR or pre pro to hear the new formats IF you have a PLAYER that decodes these internally as multichannel PCM -- these soundtracks can be passed to an AVR either over analog or HDMI, so old receivers that don't have HDMI can play the decoded tracks back as PCM over the analog connections...

BUT, from what I am experiencing with MY personal setup, my player is decoding TrueHD tracks into multichannel PCM and sending them over HDMI, yet these tracks don't sound nearly as good and "as strong" as bitstreamed legacy Dolby Digital tracks sent from the same player. So as many times you may hear "it doesn't matter where the signal is decoded," I don't believe all players are equal when they internally decode the soundtracks to PCM for pass, especially taking into account clock jitter and such.

I'm convinced that I'm not really experiencing Dolby TrueHD until I get a new player that bitstreams the codec...

Mike LoManaco

kawizx9r wrote: »

You don't need an AVR that internally decodes in order to get the new formats.

What you will need is; an AVR that has multi-channel analog inputs, a bluray player that internally decodes the new codecs and sends that signal over LCPM (multi channel analog outputs), and of course interconnects for all channels being used.

He can also send the internally decoded TrueHD, etc. signals over HDMI as PCM -- it doesn't HAVE to be analog. I'm doing it over HDMI from my Panny 10A to my Onkyo 605.

beaglehead12

Hey kawi so when i opted for dts master audio in the menue on the bluray i rented the other night thats what i heard it in even though my reciever is 10 years old

kawizx9r

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

This has been at the forefront of issues for me since jumping onto the BD bandwagon...

You DO NOT need an AVR or pre pro to hear the new formats IF you have a PLAYER that decodes these internally as multichannel PCM -- these soundtracks can be passed to an AVR either over analog or HDMI, so old receivers that don't have HDMI can play the decoded tracks back as PCM over the analog connections...

BUT, from what I am experiencing with MY personal setup, my player is decoding TrueHD tracks into multichannel PCM and sending them over HDMI, yet these tracks don't sound nearly as good and "as strong" as bitstreamed legacy Dolby Digital tracks sent from the same player. So as many times you may hear "it doesn't matter where the signal is decoded," I don't believe all players are equal when they internally decode the soundtracks to PCM for pass, especially taking into account clock jitter and such.

I'm convinced that I'm not really experiencing Dolby TrueHD until I get a new player that bitstreams the codec...

I would think the same can be said when comparing audio from a CD-player whether the signal is sent via digital optical/coaxial or analog rca's. Not all devices are equal :rolleyes:

You're correct as well regarding that the signal does not have to be over analog. I simply assumed the AVR would not have HDMI if it were, as he stated "old"

kawizx9r

beaglehead12 wrote: »

Hey kawi so when i opted for dts master audio in the menue on the bluray i rented the other night thats what i heard it in even though my reciever is 10 years old

That's cool, I was saying you can do it, and describing how this can be achieved. Your post kind of came off like I was saying it wasn't possible

Mike LoManaco

kawizx9r wrote: »

I would think the same can be said when comparing audio from a CD-player whether the signal is sent via digital optical/coaxial or analog rca's. Not all devices are equal :rolleyes:

You're correct as well regarding that the signal does not have to be over analog. I simply assumed the AVR would not have HDMI if it were, as he stated "old"

Have you read anything about the ongoing rage and debate regarding the fact that soundtracks shouldn't sound ANY different based on where they're decoded, in a player or in a surround device, such as a processor or AVR? These people SWEAR by this notion -- but my ears are telling me that something is indeed different when the TrueHD tracks are being decoded by the player rather than the receiver because they don't sound nearly as dramatic in output.

I also wanted the OP to know that he didn't need to only go through analog to hear the new formats decoded by a player -- he could pass them over HDMI, if his equipment supports it.

Mike LoManaco

kawizx9r wrote: »

You're correct as well regarding that the signal does not have to be over analog. I simply assumed the AVR would not have HDMI if it were, as he stated "old"

He said he had an Onkyo 606 -- not old in the realm of things, with onboard HDMI 1.3a, like my 605. So he CAN get audio over HDMI for the new surround codecs.

kawizx9r

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

Have you read anything about the ongoing rage and debate regarding the fact that soundtracks shouldn't sound ANY different based on where they're decoded, in a player or in a surround device, such as a processor or AVR? These people SWEAR by this notion -- but my ears are telling me that something is indeed different when the TrueHD tracks are being decoded by the player rather than the receiver because they don't sound nearly as dramatic in output.

I also wanted the OP to know that he didn't need to only go through analog to hear the new formats decoded by a player -- he could pass them over HDMI, if his equipment supports it.

I wouldn't be surprised that people felt that way Mike. It's like saying audio alone decoded by my player or my avr should sound the same.....but to me they do not and the difference isn't subtle. I guess those people don't know what DAC's are :rolleyes:

kawizx9r

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

He said he had an Onkyo 606 -- not old in the realm of things, with onboard HDMI 1.3a, like my 605. So he CAN get audio over HDMI for the new surround codecs.

He currently owns an Oinker 606, but is adding another (older) AVR probably for another setup

His Onkyo already decodes the new formats, hence the thread he posted.

Pycroft

Actually I want an AVR with preouts, so I will be looking to sell my 606, and get an AVR with preouts. I was looking at avr's that decode the new formats AND have preouts, but the reason for the post was to find out if it's possible to save a few bucks, get an AVR that doesn't support them, but has preouts and have it sound the same.

Mike LoManaco

kawizx9r wrote: »

It's like saying audio alone decoded by my player or my avr should sound the same

That's what I'm saying they're saying about it...

.....but to me they do not and the difference isn't subtle. I guess those people don't know what DAC's are :rolleyes:

Agreed; can't wait to get a new BD player with bitstreamed TrueHD output.

However, in certain cases, it may NOT be a matter of DACs -- in my situation, I am sending TrueHD out over HDMI as PCM but this is a DIGITAL connection, so I don't think my player's DACs are being utilized because it's NOT an analog connection. As a matter of fact, I know the receiver's DACs are being used because the processing is being done in the Onkyo...

And it's ONKYO -- not OINKER!

Mike LoManaco

kawizx9r wrote: »

He currently owns an Oinker 606, but is adding another (older) AVR probably for another setup

His Onkyo already decodes the new formats, hence the thread he posted.

Right, but I thought he was asking about decoding internally vs. at a receiver or processor...

I'm not certain what the initial post or question was about now...

kawizx9r

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

Right, but I thought he was asking about decoding internally vs. at a receiver or processor...

I'm not certain what the initial post or question was about now...

I don't either but anyone that reads this will gain a good amount of knowledge (if they don't already know this).

And Mike, when you do get a new bluray player....make sure to give us your thoughts. I take much interest in your movie reviews and would like to hear one regarding said-component.

BlueFox

kawizx9r wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised that people felt that way Mike. It's like saying audio alone decoded by my player or my avr should sound the same.....but to me they do not and the difference isn't subtle. I guess those people don't know what DAC's are :rolleyes:

If the BRP decodes the format and sends it over HDMI as PCM then the AVR DAC is used. The same DAC used if the AVR uncompressed the data. No differance.

Now my AVR does not decode the new compressed lossless audio formats so I let the Oppo BD83 do it and send it over HDMI. It sounds fantastic. The sound is so clearer, more precise, more detailed, and appears to make better use of the rear channels. As I said in another post I am glad I did not skrimp on my rear channel speakers (LSi15). Another bounus is that the bass appears better integrated with the overall sound in the new lossless formats. In the older lossy DVD formats the bass appeared to be over emphasized and out of proportion to the rest of the soundtrack. Now it is spot on.

Mike LoManaco

kawizx9r wrote: »

I don't either but anyone that reads this will gain a good amount of knowledge (if they don't already know this).

Indeed they shall.

And Mike, when you do get a new bluray player....make sure to give us your thoughts. I take much interest in your movie reviews and would like to hear one regarding said-component.

Thanks so much -- I appreciate that! I will indeed get back to everyone regarding the Oppo if I get it; I just want to be sure all bugs and issues have been worked out of them.

Mike LoManaco

BlueFox wrote: »

If the BRP decodes the format and sends it over HDMI as PCM then the AVR DAC is used. The same DAC used if the AVR uncompressed the data. No differance.

Right, to your first statement...but the second statement is where there are tremendous amounts of speculation. I have heard the entire gamut, running from "PCM internal decoding makes NO difference versus decoding by an AVR duing bitstream..." and others like me who swear there is a definite difference in the sound quality of a track when a player is decoding it as opposed to letting a processor or AVR decode it from a bitstreamed signal -- I recently reviewed "Casino Royale" on Blu-ray, and listened to its Dolby TrueHD track sent to my AVR via HDMI as decoded multichannel PCM, and there was a DEFINITE difference in LFE levels and overall "punch" as compared to the DVD's Dolby Digital mix. Which brings me to your next statement:

Now my AVR does not decode the new compressed lossless audio formats so I let the Oppo BD83 do it and send it over HDMI. It sounds fantastic. The sound is so clearer, more precise, more detailed, and appears to make better use of the rear channels. As I said in another post I am glad I did not skrimp on my rear channel speakers (LSi15). Another bounus is that the bass appears better integrated with the overall sound in the new lossless formats. In the older lossy DVD formats the bass appeared to be over emphasized and out of proportion to the rest of the soundtrack. Now it is spot on.

Now, this may be because you are running the new Oppo Blu-ray player and I am stuck with a first generation Panasonic which includes a known "LFE bug" over HDMI, but I find the opposite of what you're saying in terms of the audio being more "clear, precise and detailed"...TrueHD and uncompressed PCM tracks sent over HDMI from my Panasonic as multichannel PCM sound weaker and "less involving" than the bitstreamed lossy codecs from Dolby and DTS; what you state about the bass in the new formats "integrating" better in the mix may be so, but when I used to watch the DVD version of Casino Royale (which I sold just today BTW because I recently obtained the BD) the bass and dynamics of that Dolby Digital track used to shake my room to pieces -- the same exact sequences are not doing that via the TrueHD track on the Blu-ray.

For an extensive look at this debate and discussion, check out my thread of the Casino Royale BD review in this forum and notice the interesting facts me and 'Kunta had regarding this issue.

BlueFox

To me, the bass is over emphasized on regular DVDs, and is more accurate on the BR. Bassholes can always turn the sub up to 11.

cheddar

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

Right, to your first statement...but the second statement is where there are tremendous amounts of speculation. I have heard the entire gamut, running from "PCM internal decoding makes NO difference versus decoding by an AVR duing bitstream..." and others like me who swear there is a definite difference in the sound quality of a track when a player is decoding it as opposed to letting a processor or AVR decode it from a bitstreamed signal -- I recently reviewed "Casino Royale" on Blu-ray, and listened to its Dolby TrueHD track sent to my AVR via HDMI as decoded multichannel PCM, and there was a DEFINITE difference in LFE levels and overall "punch" as compared to the DVD's Dolby Digital mix. Which brings me to your next statement:



Now, this may be because you are running the new Oppo Blu-ray player and I am stuck with a first generation Panasonic which includes a known "LFE bug" over HDMI, but I find the opposite of what you're saying in terms of the audio being more "clear, precise and detailed"...TrueHD and uncompressed PCM tracks sent over HDMI from my Panasonic as multichannel PCM sound weaker and "less involving" than the bitstreamed lossy codecs from Dolby and DTS; what you state about the bass in the new formats "integrating" better in the mix may be so, but when I used to watch the DVD version of Casino Royale (which I sold just today BTW because I recently obtained the BD) the bass and dynamics of that Dolby Digital track used to shake my room to pieces -- the same exact sequences are not doing that via the TrueHD track on the Blu-ray.

In order to do any meaningful comparison of dynamics between tracks, you must first ensure that the equipment is callibrated properly. Not sure what you mean by a 'known LFE bug," but any comparison between tracks with proper LFE and with weak LFE will show exactly the lack of 'shake my room to pieces' that you describe. And it should also color the perception you have of other dynamics as well because the upper end without the bass to balance it will sound very thin compared to a properly callibrated situation.

Using PCM over HDMI, the culprit is usually not the player but the AVR for a severe drop in bass LFE output. Both blu-ray and standard dvds have their LFE tracks recorded at -10db to prevent overloading the connections between the player and AVR. When an AVR decodes a bitstream of either lossless or standard audio codecs, since it knows it's TrueHD, or Dolby Digital, or whatever because it decodes it, the AVR also knows to apply a 10db boost to the LFE channel before it is output to the speakers.

However, if the player decodes the signal and sends it out as multichannel PCM, the AVR has no idea if the PCM was originally TrueHD, Dolby Digital, or even audio from an SACD. So some AVRs apply a 10db boost to the LFE and some do not. So if you callibrated your AVR properly, then feed it multichannel PCM decoded from the player and the AVR does not automatically apply a boost, the bass will be 10db too soft. That is a significant reduction in the low end of the track and will have the EXACT symptoms you describe from your listening experience. You should manually set your AVR to boost the LFE channel +10db on multichannel PCM and see if this helps your situation. There really shouldn't be any other reason that a bitstreamed DD track should sound better than a player decoded TrueHD track if everything is setup and callibrated properly. In fact, this is the exact thing to look for that should tell you that your AVR is not adding the +10db LFE boost to the player decoded PCM. Since the TrueHD track is lossless, there shouldn't be any difference in the PCM that comes from the player decoding vs. bitstreamed decoding (hence the name lossless). DACs, on the hand, do a lossy conversion from digital to analog which does add its own 'color' to the sound. But as has already been mentioned, the DACs used in both player (over HDMI) and AVR decoding should be in the AVR.

wutadumsn23

Hey guys, saw this thread and figured I'd offer my $.02. I am currently running a PS3 as my BR player and I send my HD signal via HDMI LPCM to my AVR and I am extremely happy with the results. If I am missing anything by not sending the signal analog or Bitstream, I don't want to know and don't see how much better it could sound. Don't have any plans to "upgrade" to a dedicated BR player just so I can see Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD Master Audio on my AVR's front panel, lol.

-Jeff

kuntasensei

cheddar wrote: »

Both blu-ray and standard dvds have their LFE tracks recorded at -10db to prevent overloading the connections between the player and AVR.

I agree with most of what you said, but the LFE track being boosted 10dB at the decoding stage has nothing to do with "overloading the connections". It's part of the Dolby and DTS specs for their individual bitstreams, primarily to give them additional range in the LFE channel in theaters (so naturally, it carried over that way to the home). That's why "reference level" gives you 105dB potential in the main channels and 115dB in the LFE channel.

olilugo

BlueFox wrote: »

If the BRP decodes the format and sends it over HDMI as PCM then the AVR DAC is used. The same DAC used if the AVR uncompressed the data. No differance.

This statement does not sound right to me so I am going to re-write it. - sorry if I am misunderstanding it. I am surprise no one else has said anything.

If you have a BRP and you set it to send PCM, then the BRP DAC is decoding the sound and there is not decoding done by the AVR.

If you set the BRP to send bitstream, then the BRP will not decode the sound and the decoding will be done by the AVR.

olilugo

wutadumsn23 wrote: »

Hey guys, saw this thread and figured I'd offer my $.02. I am currently running a PS3 as my BR player and I send my HD signal via HDMI LPCM to my AVR and I am extremely happy with the results. If I am missing anything by not sending the signal analog or Bitstream, I don't want to know and don't see how much better it could sound. Don't have any plans to "upgrade" to a dedicated BR player just so I can see Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD Master Audio on my AVR's front panel, lol.

-Jeff

I don't think of it that way.
I think of it as if the BRP has a better Decoder (DAC), then by all means use the BRP and set it to PCM and don't spend so much money on the AVR.

If you think that your AVR has a better DAC, then set your BRP to bitstream the sound, let the AVR decode it using the AVR's DAC and be happy that it says True HD or DTS HD on your AVR.

This said, I belive the PS3 has a very good DAC, so it doesn't surprise me that you chose it instead of your AVR.