CASINO ROYALE COLLECTOR'S EDITION (Blu-ray; MGM/Columbia)

Mike LoManaco

McLoki wrote: »

Mike, what sub are you using again?

A fairly older PSW10 (Polk).

McLoki

I know it has been mentioned before, but that is really limiting your impression of bass in a dvd or blu-ray. It will only play down to about 40hz. You are missing over an octave of bass in most movies.....

You really owe it to your self to at least demo a good sub and hear what you have been missing. (if you are ever in central Illinois - you are always welcome to stop by - even though I consider my subs the weak link in my system as well)

Michael

Mike LoManaco

McLoki wrote: »

I know it has been mentioned before, but that is really limiting your impression of bass in a dvd or blu-ray. It will only play down to about 40hz. You are missing over an octave of bass in most movies.....

You really owe it to your self to at least demo a good sub and hear what you have been missing. (if you are ever in central Illinois - you are always welcome to stop by - even though I consider my subs the weak link in my system as well)

Michael

LOL. Thanks, Michael.

Let me say a few things here, though -- and I thoroughly appreciate your suggestions and offers; first, there aren't many titles that come across my desk or are in my collection that give me this issue. 98 percent of the titles I review and play back exhibit wild wallops of LFE on this PSW10 -- even though I may be missing the octaves of the lowest regions herein. Further, as I have explained in other review threads of mine, my gear has actually been "accepted" as "passing" for the publications and online resource sites I do reviews for; they are well aware of the fact that I own a "mere" 10-inch driver that's not a real monster in any way, yet it's been seen as "acceptable" by my editors as long as I have the up-to-date processing for the high resolution codecs. There really is no "point" per se here; I'm just mentioning it.

That said, I understand where you are coming from 100 percent -- when I have some extra scratch, my next upgrade is going to be in the form of new floorstanding speakers and a good, larger sub...probably along the lines of an SVS, plus a new Blu-ray player.

Still, I'm having a difficult time wrapping my head around the fact that most titles, as aforementioned, I run through this system exhibit the LFE they're supposed to, and now when demo'ing Casino Royale, its TrueHD track as transcoded into PCM by my player was almost completely devoid of LFE information; it's really baffling. However, I have heard from others that PCM their TrueHD and Master Audio tracks that this phenomenon of "lower output" versus the bitstreaming method when sending PCM signals from a player is very common and normal. I'm working on getting a response back from Panasonic, Onkyo and Sony Pictures' press relations department.

McLoki

While I know you did not ask - I really feel your money will be best spent by sub first. (and spend a decent budget on it) - upgrade your speakers if you feel you want to. I have a hard time believing that your electronics are even close to the weak link in your system.

Please don't get me wrong - everyone has a budget they must hold to, I am just trying to help you get the most out of yours.....

I have yet to experience any of the HD codecs in my system, (no HDMi on my pre/pro) but I hope to soon (well before next summer anyway). It will be interesting to hear the difference between lossy and lossless - Until i can, I can't contribute much more to your current issue - but I do find it very interesting as well.

Michael

Mike LoManaco

Thank you, Michael...

An interesting find I just came across was this review of the title on BIG PICTURE BIG SOUND (if I got the name of the site right); here's what the reviewer had to say about the TrueHD audio:

For this release Sony switched from an uncompressed PCM 5.1 (48kHz/16-bit) soundtrack to a Dolby TrueHD 5.1 (48kHz/24-bit) losslessly encoded mix, which should theoretically result in better sound quality because of the increased bit-depth. However, they have also added +4db of DialNorm (Dialog Normalization) to the TrueHD mix and, to my ears, the new TrueHD mix sounded slightly less dynamic than the PCM. I discovered, however, that on my Onkyo TX-SR805 A/V receiver, TrueHD with DialNorm defaults the "Late Night" mode (dynamic range compression) to "Auto", when normally I have it set to off. So, I turned "Late Night Mode" off and listened again, comparing the two releases, and they sounded nearly identical.

Casino Royale has a lively mix, whether it's PCM or TrueHD. Its low frequency extension is superb. The opening scenes in Madagascar at the embassy when Bond blows up the propane tanks are thunderous, as is the scene where he rolls the Aston Martin over. Engines roar, bullets fly directionally -- it's brilliantly designed. The one flaw I find with Casino Royale's sound is a slightly tweaked high end that can sometimes sound brittle and grating during some of the more active scenes, but otherwise it's flawless. Dialogue is clear, the surround channels are lush with reverberation and atmospheric sound effects and the score sounds expansive and robust.

Now beyond what was said about the thunderous bass, which he evidently found and I didn't (and the differences in our opinions regarding uncompressed PCM and TrueHD sounding similar/different), this dialnorm issue could be a problem -- however, I don't think my Onkyo is automatically engaging a late night mode because it's not doing the decoding, but merely processing the incoming PCM...

Still...would this really affect LFE output? Not sure about that...

McLoki

a late night mode would absolutely affect LFE output.... It compresses the dynamic range and LFE is usually all dynamic. (it is usually silent, then something blows up and all hell breaks loose, then its silent again) I know late night is supposed to affect dolby tracks and not DTS. Not sure about PCM though.

Mike LoManaco

McLoki wrote: »

a late night mode would absolutely affect LFE output.... It compresses the dynamic range and LFE is usually all dynamic. (it is usually silent, then something blows up and all hell breaks loose, then its silent again) I know late night is supposed to affect dolby tracks and not DTS. Not sure about PCM though.

No, I meant the DialNorm application affecting LFE; I am almost positive that my Late Night feature is not being tripped during the PCM transcode, but I will double check later...

Ron-P

If you've got some basic woodworking skills and about $400 you can build a sub that would kick the psw10 to the curb and compete with subs in the $1000+ category. My Sonotube sub cost a bit over $400 and started to roll off at 17hz, it was a fantastic sub for dirt cheap for a sub that could do that.

kuntasensei

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

Before we go any further -- it's important to know whether you are bitstreaming the TrueHD from your Oppo or sending it as decoded multichannel PCM...

I'm bitstreaming TrueHD and DTS-HD Master to my 705. I A/B'd bitstreaming vs. PCM out of curiosity, but didn't notice an appreciable difference.

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

Another standout moment on the DVD was the opening pre title sequence where we see flashbacks of Bond's dealings with the turncoat agent's contact -- on the DVD, when the agent asks Bond, "How did he die?" and Craig replies "Your contact? Not well," this is followed by punchy, overtly loud bass when Craig starts kicking the guy's **** in the men's room. There's a punch and heft to the sequence that's simply missing on the TrueHD mix.

See, I found the overcooked bass hits on the DVD during that sequence kind of unrealistic. The TrueHD mix still has some nice bass punctuation there, but it sounds more like I recall that scene when I saw it in the theater.

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

The biggest difference came into play during the end sequence when the Venice building is coming apart -- this scene on the DVD rattled my walls when the building starts breaking up and crumbling into the sea; the TrueHD track exhibited weaker LFE and didn't add any impact to the visuals at all, and this was disappointing because I know what that sequence was supposed to sound like!

That scene shook the room for me on both the DVD and the TrueHD mix, but I found that the DVD's bass was more generalized and unfocused, whereas the bass on the TrueHD mix seemed more directional. During the interior shots where you can hear all the creaking and groaning around you, the DVD just rumbles... but the TrueHD seemed to have that same deep bass, but with mid-bass from the other channels giving it more of a "stuff breaking all around you" feel. Just my opinion... and it may just come down to personal preference at this point.

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

Wasn't this your first foray into Blu-ray? Did you have a PS3 before this?

It's my first player in my home, though I've watched BD on the PS3 at friends' houses. I've monkeyed with a Samsung player that a friend has as well, which seemed cheap and took FOREVER to load discs. My first in-home experience was when a friend brought his BDP-83 over to spin a disc on my setup (though he was actually trying to get me to buy it from him to hide the purchase from his wife, and he ended up returning it).

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

Thanks again for taking the time to post your impressions -- I was looking forward to recalibrating my display with the Spears disc if I got the Oppo, even though it's been calibrated and double checked by a standard DVD setup disc and the HD Basics Blu-ray -- are the patterns not accurate on the Spears disc for analyzing contrast, color, etc?

The patterns are all accurate... but the S&M disc recommends setting contrast so that you can see distinct shades of white all the way up to level 253, whereas 235 is typically where you should focus when trying to maximize contrast on a projector. I also just like the patterns on the free AVS disc more, as they're easier to see the results of the adjustments and include more in-depth patterns for testing your display (as well as comprehensive grayscale patterns for those of us with the equipment to use them). If you haven't tried the AVS 709 HD patterns, check them out here. It's a free download and they should list which version to download and burn to DVD for your player.

kuntasensei

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

Now beyond what was said about the thunderous bass, which he evidently found and I didn't (and the differences in our opinions regarding uncompressed PCM and TrueHD sounding similar/different), this dialnorm issue could be a problem -- however, I don't think my Onkyo is automatically engaging a late night mode because it's not doing the decoding, but merely processing the incoming PCM...

Still...would this really affect LFE output? Not sure about that...

People constantly make this mistake when talking about Dialnorm. All Dialnorm does is tell your receiver to boost all channels by a specified global amount so that dialogue reproduction is consistent from disc to disc. So if a disc says it has +4 dialnorm, it has the same effect as bumping all your level trims up +4dB. It doesn't affect the balance of the mix itself one bit.

As for the late night stuff with TrueHD tracks, the Onkyo's late night mode does default to Auto when bitstreaming TrueHD tracks to it, so if a disc has DRC enabled in the TrueHD track, the Onkyo will engage it. In my case, the Oppo actually lets you set on the player whether TrueHD dynamic range compensation is on, off or auto (meaning if a disc says to apply it, it will, but otherwise DRC is off). Mine is set to off, but I've also been careful to change the Onkyo's late night setting for TrueHD to off when the movie starts to ensure I wasn't getting any DRC.

speedster2333

I have watched this movie more times than any other movie, thanks for the in depth review

Mike LoManaco

Ron-P wrote: »

If you've got some basic woodworking skills and about $400 you can build a sub that would kick the psw10 to the curb and compete with subs in the $1000+ category. My Sonotube sub cost a bit over $400 and started to roll off at 17hz, it was a fantastic sub for dirt cheap for a sub that could do that.

While I appreciate the suggestion and tip, Ron, I wouldn't trust my woodworking skills to hang a nail...:eek: :rolleyes:

Okay -- that's going too far. But I wouldn't build myself a sub.

Thank you, though!

Mike LoManaco

speedster2333 wrote: »

I have watched this movie more times than any other movie, thanks for the in depth review

You are more than welcome; I, too, have probably watched this more than most titles in my collection -- as you are a fan, you probably didn't even need the review to tell you what was going on.

Thank you for your thoughts!

Mike LoManaco

kuntasensei wrote: »

I'm bitstreaming TrueHD and DTS-HD Master to my 705. I A/B'd bitstreaming vs. PCM out of curiosity, but didn't notice an appreciable difference.

Okay. That clears up a great deal. I suppose this comes down to individual players and what they "do" with decoding these signals -- apparently, the Oppo simply kicks the s!@#%^ out of my Panasonic's internal decoders (at least in terms of TrueHD).

See, I found the overcooked bass hits on the DVD during that sequence kind of unrealistic. The TrueHD mix still has some nice bass punctuation there, but it sounds more like I recall that scene when I saw it in the theater.

Again, interesting -- and indeed, the sequence's tacticle response can be labled as "overcooked." But it drew me into the scene better on the DVD. I watched the Blu-ray again last night, and again, the LFE just wasn't there; the track's overall dynamics and mastering levels seem to be reduced on the Blu-ray as well.

That scene shook the room for me on both the DVD and the TrueHD mix, but I found that the DVD's bass was more generalized and unfocused, whereas the bass on the TrueHD mix seemed more directional. During the interior shots where you can hear all the creaking and groaning around you, the DVD just rumbles... but the TrueHD seemed to have that same deep bass, but with mid-bass from the other channels giving it more of a "stuff breaking all around you" feel. Just my opinion... and it may just come down to personal preference at this point.

Indeed, that may be, that it's becoming an issue of personal preference -- my job is usually to report what my ears have heard and experienced on these discs, and there are always differences of opinion on all these matters. And, of course, your Oppo is a much more up-to-date player than my Panasonic, which only transcodes TrueHD into PCM, and doesn't bitstream it, so there are a few factors here -- when the building is crumbling apart in that sequence, you could feel the bass in my system on the DVD version...there's a moment of an extended bass passage when the building is kind of leaning down to fall into the water. This scene left a low, rumbling wave of LFE on the DVD through my PSW10 -- the exact same sequence on the Blu-ray was shallow, as if the bass were almost coming through the main channels.

As I have said, this all could change with the bitstreaming of TrueHD to my receiver -- but I can't confirm this until I get a player that implements this.

It's my first player in my home, though I've watched BD on the PS3 at friends' houses. I've monkeyed with a Samsung player that a friend has as well, which seemed cheap and took FOREVER to load discs. My first in-home experience was when a friend brought his BDP-83 over to spin a disc on my setup (though he was actually trying to get me to buy it from him to hide the purchase from his wife, and he ended up returning it).


The patterns are all accurate... but the S&M disc recommends setting contrast so that you can see distinct shades of white all the way up to level 253, whereas 235 is typically where you should focus when trying to maximize contrast on a projector. I also just like the patterns on the free AVS disc more, as they're easier to see the results of the adjustments and include more in-depth patterns for testing your display (as well as comprehensive grayscale patterns for those of us with the equipment to use them). If you haven't tried the AVS 709 HD patterns, check them out here. It's a free download and they should list which version to download and burn to DVD for your player.

Would it be similarly easy to set the contrast and such for those without front projection systems?

kuntasensei

Mike, the AVS 709 HD patterns are useful for setting contrast/brightness/etc. on any system connected via HDMI to a digital display (LCD, DLP, etc.). It's free... and a disc worth having if you really want your system looking its best.

Ron-P

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

While I appreciate the suggestion and tip, Ron, I wouldn't trust my woodworking skills to hang a nail...:eek: :rolleyes:

Okay -- that's going too far. But I wouldn't build myself a sub.

Thank you, though!

LOL Mike!

Mike LoManaco

Ron-P wrote: »

LOL Mike!

:cool: