XO upgrade SDA3.1TL's

ben62670

Well we all know what the upgrades do so here are some pics, and not a lot of talk. If you compare both boards you can see the rerouting of a few of the components to make things fit better, or in the case of the resistor to lay flat.

Before


After

I chose to **** the caps a little sideways so they would be more rigid.
The resistor used to go from B to G, but I routed it G to R2.
The center 12uf cap runs from P1 to one of the holes for L5.
I drilled a hole in the board to attach the large cap vertically.
Ben

zingo

Very well done like always, and I like the Sonicap/Dayton combo. You'll have to let up know how it sounds.

ben62670

zingo wrote: »

Very well done like always, and I like the Sonicap/Dayton combo. You'll have to let up know how it sounds.

I would love to, but they are not mine. You try the Dayton's yet? I like them even on the highs, but I never push them. Sonicaps have a very good rep, and I wouldn't want anyone wondering if they should have used them instead of the Dayton's. Also the Sonicaps are not that expensive to run on the highs.
Ben

zingo

I love my all Sonicap RDO 4.1TLs, but I haven't been able to try the Daytons yet. They will be the cap I use on my next project.

ben62670

I want to do a shootout between Sonicap, Dayton, and ClarityCap. Price wise the ClarityCap is in between the others. I also want to build an amp setup to burn in caps with a resistor instead of a speaker. This way I can keep track of time, and I don't have to hear it! I could use one of these $15 Accurians;)
Ben

zingo

That's a good idea. I really like the Jantzen caps I have in my 5Jrs also, but they are probably similar to the Daytons.

Face

Daytons are a little more forward and don't have the depth of Sonic Caps, but are still a big upgrade over most OEM caps.

engtaz

Ben where did you get the 3.1TL crossovers?

engtaz

george daniel

I was guessing that they are yours Roy,, guess I'm wrong. :eek:

Seems like Ben is back on the "bench" again.

ben62670

george daniel wrote: »

Seems like Ben is back on the "bench" again.

Well I was feeling good last night. I did a few things here. This morning I woke up in a pool of sweat. My kids were up, and watching TV. It was 10:30, and they were supposed to be in school. I laid off the pain killers, and I don't no if it could be any sort of withdrawal being that I only was on them for a week. My arm still looks good, but I am not feeling so good

2-tall

Has anyone done a comparison with the modified xover and the original.

zingo

I have done a few personally and the new components makes a very noticeable difference in sound quality, soundstage, etc. I don't know if anyone has done a side-by-side with one modified and one unmodified, but it would be a strange sounding test even if you did.

Face

It does sound odd to compare them side by side. I've compared modified to stock before and it's good to compare difference in detail, brighness, etc... Otherwise it's best to just rely on your sonic memory because you really can't compare differences in soundstage, etc... with stock side by side with modified.

zingo

One of our favorite banned members was very critical of people (me included) who would modify a XO, then report that it sounded different (or gasp! even better) because we didn't do one, then compare them side by side. In his mind, if it wasn't a side by side comparison, it didn't hold any value.

But, that is an incorrect train of thought as that isn't the way people compare speakers in general. If I, or anyone, is going to demo a new pair of speakers to buy, you don't listen to one of them next to your old speaker, or any other speaker you are demoing. Can you image asking the salesman to hook-up one of each speaker for a test in the store?!? They wouldn't even humor you because it would hold no weight or accuracy as a test.

BAD ASP

The 3.1 tl crossovers that are shown here are mine. Ben did my 1.2's a few weeks back and I immediately could tell an improvement.
It will be interesting to me to put the 3.1's back together as I've had them since they were new and I am very familiar with their sound. I have not updated the tweeters yet and I'm not sure if I will. I will definitely write back with my impressions.
Ben did a great job on the 1.2's and these look equally fantastic.Great job Ben... thanks.

engtaz

Please let me know what you think of the changes.

engtaz

BAD ASP

engtaz wrote: »

Please let me know what you think of the changes.

engtaz

That will be my pleasure. I have always liked these speakers and I hope this upgrade is as surprising as the 1.2's.

ben62670

E how long you been hear, and you have to ask?

engtaz

You know I like the hear other opinions of crossover upgrades. I also keep up the "my caps better and bigger then yours" war of words.

engtaz

zingo

engtaz wrote: »

You know I like the hear other opinions of crossover upgrades. I also keep up the "my caps better and bigger then yours" war of words.

dacoupedeville

I did the sonicap upgrade to my 3.1 tls and love it. The improvement in the highs was so great that I still have not gone to the silk domes after five months. Very clear and smooth sound.

I also would like to thank all you crossover guys here on CP. You are all an amazing resource and made the project simple.

Polksaladanni

Good job Ben!

I'll take the Bennic/Daytons MP's all day long.

Especially with the hard poly or silk tweeters.

I like the . 47uf FF on the RT55 soft poly trilam's though. The rest are MP's.

Bennic/Dayton is a MAJOR player in the (us)casual modder/diy &commercial builders so they keep their plants updated and up to spec.

FYI: This is the only manufactor I know of that makes a plastic-cased cap.

They also make em for Cardis also... Looks mighty similar to-See Above

http://www.rtie.com/imb/audio_fc.htm#

Paul

ben62670

These will be shipped tomorrow. It is the same make up as many sets that have been done by Polkies including myself. I am sure he will be very happy with them.
Thanks Paul.
Ben

Polksaladanni

2-tall wrote: »

Has anyone done a comparison with the modified xover and the original.

I did with the 55's. It was horrible since the rcvr I used doesn't even have a mono button.

The new caps changed the Q a little and the spl also. So it was very hard to judge with different levels and no mono.

They sound MUCH better soft and loud though.

Any speaker is likely to be over-driven by the mass majority. It just happens. Electrolytic caps are the most suceptable to death (heat) from clipping. So it makes sense and better sound replacing them.

(Clipping is converting AC/analog watts to deadly DC voltage) Bad! for voice coils. I read 2 review posts of the RT55 where 2 knuckleheads literaly melted the tweeters from clipping and wondered why....

High current amps can do this also if you get close to the limits of small voice coils or XO circuits.

Paul

Polksaladanni

ben62670 wrote: »

These will be shipped tomorrow. It is the same make up as many sets that have been done by Polkies including myself. I am sure he will be very happy with them.
Thanks Paul.
Ben

Glad you have the time to help folks recharge their old Polks.

Keep it up.

Paul

ben62670

Well I have only been here a few years, and I have been helped by this forum, and Polk so much that I truly enjoy helping people out. It is like a family here. I am kinda stuck at home for health reasons, and helping people gives me some satisfaction so I appreciate when I can give.
Thanks
Ben

BAD ASP

I promised an update when I got the boards back and reinstalled. As I had said earlier I have owned these speakers since new in 1990 + / - and I am very familiar with their sound. The amplifier for this is an integrated Denon 5700 5channel. The music source is an onkyo cd player and XM radio through the satellite. When I first powered them up I was not very pleased. The music was Dire Straits - Money... I have always liked the opening for its transitions and since I am an old rocker it suits my taste. It started out so bright I immediately shut it down and checked all of the connections and the sda cable. I then checked the bass management on the reciever to be sure, it was way off but the sound was still almost lifeless with no bass or midrange definition. I know that I am now spoiled by the updated 1.2's I have in another room and those are powered by Sunfire separates so I didn't expect the same type of performance. The underlying thing for me was that the 1.2's were so incredible right out of the box with the XO upgrade that I wasn't expecting such a marked difference between the stock 3.1's and the upgraded version. I kept telling myself that I had read that the XO's do require burn in. The 1.2's did burn in with increasing improved sound so I decided to continue the burn in process but I also decided to stay with the one recording looped over and over so I might tell if the sound was improving. I watched my son's taped college football game while listening.
The short version is that I could definitely hear the speakers picking up depth and sound stage continuously. My wife was justifiably b****** at me to change to something else that it was getting annoying. I invited her to join me and if she would I would change to something she wanted. She went away... oh well for now this trip is mine. The soundstage began to open up slowly and the depth became a little more pronounced. I am still feeling the speakers are bright compared to the originals but the midrange and bass are starting to be more present. The articulation of the speakers is decidedly improved. I am noticeing the same type of subtle sounds that I began to notice on the 1.2's. They only have about two hours of time on them but I will offer that the sound has improved so dramatically in that time frame that I am sure that they will burn in more. I can assure you that Mark Knopfler will be invited to play again but it will probably be awhile.
For now my observation is that the speakers at this point have improved from the first few minutes to say that they are indeed different speakers from the original. The soundstage improvement is noticeable and the overall sound quality is improved but different with the speakers being slightly brighter. I am sure that the continued burn in will bring in more midrange and bass. I am still using the original tweeters (3000's) but I will keep burning them in with these tweeters. I will have additional comments after I have some more time on them
Excellent job on the boards by Ben. Thanks to him and all here for the help and providing a great place to share the madness.:D:D

Herfnwolf

I'm almost ready to upgrade my 3.1TLs. Thanks for the update.

My reference will be Dire Straits Private Investigations. I really enjoy the airy openness and the dramatic high and bottom end percussion outro. Of course the exceptional guitar by Knopfler is always a treat.

jimiles

Excellent looking, as always Ben. It's always interesting to see what you're up to. Keep up the great work! :cool:

BAD ASP

I left the house this morning about 6:00 and I set the satellite on an xm station playing disco. I played this all day at about 75 db's. When I got home around 7:30 the speakers had morphed. They have burned in enough for me to say that they have improved dramatically. I am sure that there is much more burn in to go but they are sounding great. The midrange and bass are now present. The soundstage has deepened and the SQ is as before only much more detail. The vocals are clear and defined, they actually sound more musical than they did before and I always felt they were great. I am extemely happy at this point with having the boards done. I am not sure about changing out the tweeters as I have read from some of you that the 3000's are pretty good. I will be more descriptive with my observations in another week or so, I just wanted to update my post about my immediate reaction compared to now. Thanks again Ben, they are great.

BAD ASP

Well its been a week now and the speakers have really improved. I have let them run continuously and they have really opened up.
My room is somewhat awkward in that the speakers are centered on a 30'0" wall X 16'0" deep. The couches are set 10'0" in front and the speakers are 10'0" apart.
When sitting in the sweet spot they now are very much like listening to headphones. The separation and soundstage are clearly greater than the width of the speakers. When closing my eyes and listening to some well engineered Cd's it much like listening to really good headphones. The separation is fantastic. The lows, mid range and highs are all very well defined. Purity of the sound is also greatly improved at lower listening levels. Voices are very clear and defined. The speakers are much quicker (?) and sound more musical.

I couldn't be happier with the upgrades. If they develop any further I'll be pleasantly surprised. Right now they have about 150 hours on them. From what I've been reading it seems they may burn in more up to about 400 +/- hours.

The 3.1's are connected to my AVR which is the Denon 5700 rated at 170 wpc. I have always felt that the Denon is very musical but it isn't really in the same league as the Sunfire. So this next weekend I will move them to the basement and put them on the same system as the upgraded 1.2's and compare them. It will be an interesting comparison.. I'll let you know my thoughts.

Anyone interested in doing the 3.1 XO upgrades I can honestly say it has exceeded my expectations so far. I can highly recommend it.