Free isn't always better

tugboat

A couple of years ago I was given 200' of Monster Cable XP Navajo white for free. I put it away until 6 months ago. I decided that since my cable runs were under 20' I could get away with using the MC I was given. The cable is 16ga, so it should have been fine for the job. I even created an IC out of it.

At first it seemed to have made a favorable difference in sound quality and I was pleased. Around the same time I also got new, thicker carpet, new sofa, etc and when it seemed the sound stage narrowed and things got duller, I blamed all of those new things. Well after hearing from so many hear about needing better cables, I decided to purchase some 12ga Belden from BJC. It arrived yesterday and I went about measuring, cutting and terminating the new cable and am not finished with the new wiring.

First listening impressions....Brighter, tighter, more depth and wider sound stage. Makes me wonder if the Monster Cable was really 16ga. Still, from reading here, anything under 14ga seems too small for most applications.

A question.... I'm going to remake my IC (single wire pin to pin). Should I just use one 12ga wire, or combine the two 12ga wires together and solder on the pin ends? Would this be overkill?

Thanks everyone! My next task is the XO rebuild. I should have the new Sonicaps here on Thursday!

mmadden28

I doubt its 16awg, they certainly don't print the guage on the wire or the packaging. It might have a overall wire diameter equivalent to 16awg (w/o insulation), but it also has the flux tubing in the center taking up space-filling that out a bit. I'll bet the actual guage is smaller if you were to remove the flux tube and measure.

You're making ICs from speaker wire?

Early B.

You're simply coming into the realization that wire matters. If you want a stellar rig, get rid of the cheap cables, including the Belden wire and go with a higher quality cable such as Audioquest, Kimber, DH Labs, etc. If you're gonna do XO rebuilds with Sonicaps, you may as well change cables. Without doing so, it's kinda like putting premium unleaded fuel in a Hyundai and expecting it to perform like a Mercedes. To truly benefit from your crossover mod, you gotta bring everything in your rig up to the same standard, and Sonicaps represent a fairly high standard.

tugboat

mmadden28 wrote: »

I doubt its 16awg, they certainly don't print the guage on the wire or the packaging. It might have a overall wire diameter equivalent to 16awg (w/o insulation), but it also has the flux tubing in the center taking up space-filling that out a bit. I'll bet the actual guage is smaller if you were to remove the flux tube and measure.

You're making ICs from speaker wire?

I just cut open a section of the wire and I'll be....it not only has a plastic core in it, but two sections of color fiber strands. One is red and the other is black. You take those and the core out and the wire is about the size of a standard 18ga wire or smaller! Guess I should have paid more attention. I just striped and stuck a crimp banana plug on each end. I only looked to see the jacket was removed and not at the strands. Stupid me.

I only had the AI-1 with my 1.2TLs, so I had to make my own IC. From reading and asking here I found that only the pin is needed, so I went out and got some solder RCA plugs, pulled the center pin out and soldered it to the ends of a 15' length of the MC XP wire. If I ever go mono blocks, I'll go back to the AI-1.

tugboat

Early B. wrote: »

You're simply coming into the realization that wire matters. If you want a stellar rig, get rid of the cheap cables, including the Belden wire and go with a higher quality cable such as Audioquest, Kimber, DH Labs, etc. If you're gonna do XO rebuilds with Sonicaps, you may as well change cables. Without doing so, it's kinda like putting premium unleaded fuel in a Hyundai and expecting it to perform like a Mercedes. To truly benefit from your crossover mod, you gotta bring everything in your rig up to the same standard, and Sonicaps represent a fairly high standard.

I'm doing things in steps. The Belden upgrade only cost me $40 and gives me a base. It has given me another point to go from. When I upgade to AQ in a few months, I'll know if it makes a noticable difference to my ears. If I had gone directly from the MC XP to AQ, I know I would have heard a difference, but now I'll be compare AQ to a better wire over the MC XP.

mmadden28

tugboat wrote: »

I'm doing things in steps. The Belden upgrade only cost me $40 and gives me a base. It has given me another point to go from. When I upgade to AQ in a few months, I'll know if it makes a noticable difference to my ears. If I had gone directly from the MC XP to AQ, I know I would have heard a difference, but now I'll be compare AQ to a better wire over the MC XP.

The stepped way is pretty much the way I do it. I want to know if there is a diff (or if there isn't).

Early B.

I guess what I'm suggesting is to skip a few steps and go straight to the good stuff. I've wasted thousands of dollars over the past decade by upgrading in "steps," and I don't want you to make the same mistakes I did.

tugboat

Early B. wrote: »

I guess what I'm suggesting is to skip a few steps and go straight to the good stuff. I've wasted thousands of dollars over the past decade by upgrading in "steps," and I don't want you to make the same mistakes I did.

I appreciate that. I'm not looking for the holy grail of sound, so I'm bound to stop well before spending too much. From Ben's recommendation I'm going to AQ next and will most likely stop there. The Belden I purchased will find a new home on my SS vintage setup, so it's not wasted money.

I'm not doing anything with my patch cords as every piece except my cassette deck is optical. The cassette doesn't get much use and it's not worth upgrading its connections.

mmadden28

tugboat wrote: »

I appreciate that. I'm not looking for the holy grail of sound, ...

You say that now-until one day you hear what you're missing...;) Then all bets are off.

mmadden28

Early B. wrote: »

I guess what I'm suggesting is to skip a few steps and go straight to the good stuff. I've wasted thousands of dollars over the past decade by upgrading in "steps," and I don't want you to make the same mistakes I did.

I can agree with that. In my 'stepped' approach, I alway consider that anything I buy as a stepping stone will likely be reused in a lesser system (kids room, garage, etc) when I finally do decide to get the 'good' stuff. So no loss really. For me I still don't know what good stuff to get, what good stuff is the good stuff without going overboard. I have long runs in my HT that would be very costly. I have been putting more money into cables on the 2 ch system for now putting the HT on the backburner since it sounds good as is (for now).

ben62670

mmadden28 wrote: »

You say that now-until one day you hear what you're missing...;) Then all bets are off.

Yep! As early stated too. I have done small increments in upgrades. Pretty much a waste of time. AQ is not a huge step, and should just have been done. If you have your speaker cables on carpet try raising them off the floor with some Dixie cups or something. While this may not be noticed as much with some cables it is with others. When I say this I just about spayed I laughed so hard, but as you move up some of these tips become less humorous. Also try not to loop cables. Some areas are worse than others, but looping cables can introduce noise into a system. Keep IC's away from PC's and speaker wires. Cheaper cables are designed to block noise because people don't know how to implement proper cable management. This tends to suck the life out of your music. Don't laugh just try it. Most of my advice is free.

Does anyone know where the free tweaks thread went? I can't find it
Ben

tugboat

ben62670 wrote: »

Yep! As early stated too. I have done small increments in upgrades. Pretty much a waste of time. AQ is not a huge step, and should just have been done. If you have your speaker cables on carpet try raising them off the floor with some Dixie cups or something. While this may not be noticed as much with some cables it is with others. When I say this I just about spayed I laughed so hard, but as you move up some of these tips become less humorous. Also try not to loop cables. Some areas are worse than others, but looping cables can introduce noise into a system. Keep IC's away from PC's and speaker wires. Cheaper cables are designed to block noise because people don't know how to implement proper cable management. This tends to suck the life out of your music. Don't laugh just try it. Most of my advice is free.

Does anyone know where the free tweaks thread went? I can't find it
Ben

I never loop cables and try to keep them only long enough to connect with about a foot of play (for placement changes). I was planning on picking up the cable from the floor by making some wood cradles attached to the top of the baseboard. Then I will encase the cable in wood conduit that can be painted to match. I think this will look better than bunched up along the baseboard.

So no thoughts on my 1.2TL IC cable? I'm thinking a single 12ga wire will be enough, but it probably wouldn't hurt to have two 12ga wires.

ben62670

A single 12ga wire of decent quality would be fine.

WilliamM2

I was planning on picking up the cable from the floor by making some wood cradles attached to the top of the baseboard. Then I will encase the cable in wood conduit that can be painted to match. I think this will look better than bunched up along the baseboard.

Why go to all that bother? Just run them in the walls, as speaker wire should be run.

tugboat

WilliamM2 wrote: »

Why go to all that bother? Just run them in the walls, as speaker wire should be run.

I'm a renter and I'm already in trouble for mounting my surround speakers on the wall and painting with dark colors. They'd just crap if I started pulling wire through the walls. :eek: I think they've already put me on the list of those not getting back their deposit.

F1nut

Funny thing, once one gets into the higher end cables, the gauge isn't important. For example, I've got no clue what gauge my cables are and I don't care. What I do care about is how they took my systems to the top of the mountain.

Can I get an Amen!?!

ben62670

Amen!

F1nut

Bless you, brother.

mmadden28

WilliamM2 wrote: »

Why go to all that bother? Just run them in the walls, as speaker wire should be run.

Yeah for surrounds and rears-but not the fronts--right?

WilliamM2

mmadden28 wrote: »

Yeah for surrounds and rears-but not the fronts--right?

Of course the front channels too. Exposed speaker wire just looks tacky.

Face

mmadden28 wrote: »

Yeah for surrounds and rears-but not the fronts--right?

It's a matter of preference, I hid the cable for my rears but left neatly left out the cable for my mains.

mmadden28

WilliamM2 wrote: »

Of course the front channels too. Exposed speaker wire just looks tacky.

But to run the wire from the amp into the walls, then up or down to an attic or basement, then back to the speakers would add a lot more length to the speaker cable not to mention all the extra connection points. I would think some Wiremold would work just as well for concealment.
Of course with new construction you can go horizontal in the walls but how often is that possible.

WilliamM2

mmadden28 wrote: »

But to run the wire from the amp into the walls, then up or down to an attic or basement, then back to the speakers would add a lot more length to the speaker cable not to mention all the extra connection points. I would think some Wiremold would work just as well for concealment.
Of course with new construction you can go horizontal in the walls but how often is that possible.

I run mine through the basement, adds about three feet to the length, no big deal, and no extra connectors.

mmadden28

WilliamM2 wrote: »

I run mine through the basement, adds about three feet to the length, no big deal, and no extra connectors.

3'?, I would expect it to be at least 3' from the wall jack down, then another 3' back up.
You're not using any wall jacks to go via the basement?

WilliamM2

No wall jacks. But if I did, why would they be three feet off the ground? The idea is to hide the speaker wire.

But even if it added 10', that wouldn't cause any issues.

mmadden28

WilliamM2 wrote: »

No wall jacks. But if I did, why would they be three feet off the ground? The idea is to hide the speaker wire.

I didn't say 3' off the ground-I was thinking more like the standard 18" off the ground plus the foot or so to get below the floor joists plus some slack for working and getting around any turns, etc. So 3' down and 3' up. So you just run the wire in the wall with no jacks? How do you make it look clean? Or are you going down through the floor or baseboard?

That must make changing you're setup or running new wires a nightmare.

WilliamM2

mmadden28 wrote: »

I didn't say 3' off the ground-I was thinking more like the standard 18" off the ground plus the foot or so to get below the floor joists plus some slack for working and getting around any turns, etc. So 3' down and 3' up. So you just run the wire in the wall with no jacks? How do you make it look clean? Or are you going down through the floor or baseboard?

That must make changing you're setup or running new wires a nightmare.

1 hole drilled just under the baseboard. Much cleaner looking than wall plates and jacks, doesn't really matter though, because you cant see it at all. Changing the wire would be as simple as passing the wire through the hole, but why would I change the wire? Changing the in-wall runs to my center and surrounds would be a pain, but again, why would I change the wire?