What's with the Chinese?

Demiurge

These gymnastics have been effin' ridiculous. It's obviously not all the Chinese, because the judges are from all around the world, but they've left their large footprint on the controversy surrounding these games.

The biggest being the actual age of their athletes. There's no organization that can do anything to verify the facts because the Chinese government is control of what is or isn't truth.

2 nights in a row of some severely subjective results.

F1nut

No ****, the fix is in.

exalted512

And how about getting rid of baseball and softball because no one can beat the Americans then the Chinese beam one of our batters giving him a concussion.
-Cody

Rivrrat

Well, the womens softball team took a huge chunk out of the Chinese's azzes.

Mercy ruled them, 9-0.

swerve

well... when a country's gymnast is competing there is no judge on the panel representing that country.
the age thing is a different matter though. i just think if people weren't complaining about this... they would be complaining about something else.

avelanchefan

exalted512 wrote: »

And how about getting rid of baseball and softball because no one can beat the Americans then the Chinese beam one of our batters giving him a concussion.
-Cody

Yeah what the hell is up with that? Getting rid of softball is stupid. I say if they do that then they should get rid of Badminton because the Chinese always win gold in that. Or diving too.

Let's face it our country is under attack even in the Olympics.

Danny Tse

The local NBC affiliate here in the Bay Area interviewed several former US Olympians and they explained the new scoring system for gymnastics....makes perfect sense. If tied, take away the highest and lowest score, then average remaining scores. If still tied, again take away next highest and lowest score, then average remaining score. Keep doing that until one higher score emerges.

Sami

exalted512 wrote: »

And how about getting rid of baseball and softball because no one can beat the Americans then the Chinese beam one of our batters giving him a concussion.
-Cody

Looks like US is 1-2 in Beijing in baseball. I have no idea if that team is pro or not though.

As for the badminton comment, baseball is still pretty much a regional sport while badminton is international sport.

xeb

the IOC needs a kick up the arse IMO for giving China the games in the first place. China has done nothing it promised on human rights, censorship etc. Banning cars from driving during the olympics to overcome the pollution problems?? it's supposed to be about putting long term plans into effect to better the country, not slapping on a lick of paint last minute. and the whole idea of re-selecting kids at like 3 to be the future athletes is just **** up...

Demiurge

Danny Tse wrote: »

The local NBC affiliate here in the Bay Area interviewed several former US Olympians and they explained the new scoring system for gymnastics....makes perfect sense. If tied, take away the highest and lowest score, then average remaining scores. If still tied, again take away next highest and lowest score, then average remaining score. Keep doing that until one higher score emerges.

Erm, so what? There are rules judges need to follow in scoring. The U.S. Gymnast's score was LOWER than it should have been. That's where the bulk of the outrage stemmed from. She never should have been in that position to begin with.

I was watching NBC as well all night last night, and even after the convoluted new system was explained, there was still a great deal of anger about why she had such a low score when she clearly won the competition.

Bottom line, if this was the only thing that's happened in this Olympics that had been fishy I wouldn't even have started this thread. Last year the Hamm's got away with one. The fact is that there have been a lot of screwy things occurring, such as the Chinese **** with the heads of the athletes of other countries by delaying their routines.

Demiurge

xeb wrote: »

the IOC needs a kick up the arse IMO for giving China the games in the first place. China has done nothing it promised on human rights, censorship etc. Banning cars from driving during the olympics to overcome the pollution problems?? it's supposed to be about putting long term plans into effect to better the country, not slapping on a lick of paint last minute. and the whole idea of re-selecting kids at like 3 to be the future athletes is just **** up...

I think you're right about that. The opening ceremony was great, but you had to laugh at how contrary the messages they conveyed were to how they actually run their country. Case in point, the little girl they deemed "too ugly," to sing in front of the world so they had to trot out some other little girl that was pretty enough to lip synch. :rolleyes:

TroyD

A little off topic but, IMO, there are other things that are pissing me off about the Olympics. Why do we have Americans playing on the national teams of OTHER countries? We've got a chick playing basketball for Russia, a dude playing basketball for Germany....etc

I'm I the only one that finds that a little jacked up? I have a REAL issue with that. Of course, I also disagree with using professional athletes in the Olympics too.....but, I digress.

I also think that China is sort of shooting itself in the foot, but, you have to sort of understand the Pan-Asian mentality. We see things from our perspective and thiers is VASTLY different. I'm not disagreeing with the effed up part of it, but, having spent some time in this part of the world, I see where they are coming from.

BDT

obieone

I can't believe anyone here is surprised or outraged. We're talking about the I.O.C.= U.N.= seedless wonders.

Sami

TroyD wrote: »

A little off topic but, IMO, there are other things that are pissing me off about the Olympics. Why do we have Americans playing on the national teams of OTHER countries? We've got a chick playing basketball for Russia, a dude playing basketball for Germany....etc

Plenty of people who got citizenship in another country representing their new homeland. The US basketball player is now a Russian citizen. Granted the way she took/got the citizenship isn't exactly the way most do (by marriage or immigration), she took it just to be able to play Olympic basketball. She is ineligible to represent US for the rest of her life, IIRC.

NotaSuv

obieone wrote: »

I can't believe anyone here is surprised or outraged. We're talking about the I.O.C.= U.N.= seedless wonders.

And winning the Gold for the worlds most corrupt committee goes to


The I.O.C

xeb

TroyD wrote: »

also disagree with using professional athletes in the Olympics too.....

interesting debate this one. isn't an athlete an athlete no matter whether pro or not? the olympics is supposed to celebrate/recognise athletic excellence so shouldn't pro's be allowed to compete (i'm not sure this is my stance on the matter, i'm just interested to hear viewpoints)

completely OTT sorry

Sami

NotaSuv wrote: »

And winning the Gold for the worlds most corrupt committee goes to


The I.O.C

Don't whine too much about it though, the Americans know their way too when it comes to cheating and pulling it home in international stage. It's unfortunately part of the sports world, everyone does it.

Sami

xeb wrote: »

isn't an athlete an athlete no matter whether pro or not?

Pro vs. amateur once was someone who was able to train 24/7 without having to worry about money vs. someone who had to have a day job and on the the spare time train. Most amateurs today are training with government scholars and similar so in reality none of them are amateurs. College athletes in the US for example aren't exactly amateurs since they can devote most of their time to training.

NotaSuv

Yeah but we did kick some Chinese **** in baseball

great play at home being rolled over by someone twice your size

NotaSuv

Sami wrote: »

Don't whine too much about it though, the Americans know their way too when it comes to cheating and pulling it home in international stage. It's unfortunately part of the sports world, everyone does it.

No whinning anywhere here....did I whine? sorry then.....pure truth....dealt with I.O.C before the Denver games.......

shack

TroyD wrote:

A little off topic but, IMO, there are other things that are pissing me off about the Olympics. Why do we have Americans playing on the national teams of OTHER countries? We've got a chick playing basketball for Russia, a dude playing basketball for Germany....etc

I'm I the only one that finds that a little jacked up? I have a REAL issue with that. Of course, I also disagree with using professional athletes in the Olympics too.....but, I digress.

I disagree with you on both points. I have no issue with either one. If an athlete doesn't make the US team and there is criteria or a tie of some sort that lets them play for another country...so be it. It gives an athlete a chance to participate. I was watching the men’s all round gymnastic competition early in the Olympics. Of the four men competing, one was Russian (Alexander Artemev), one was Chinese (Kai Wen Tan), one was Indian (Raj Bhavsar) and one was American. I do believe all were born here. Our American female gold metal winner was born in Russia to parents who won Olympic medals for Russia. Have you noticed that most of the world class foreign track athletes actually were members of the NCAA and competed for major college teams? Sort of the same thing. It is becoming a Global community and borders are not what they used to be.

As far as pros....there have ALWAYS been pros in the Olympics...they just weren't recognized as such. It would be nice if it was pure amateurs...but it hasn't been that way in 50-60 years. NO going back now.

As for the judging...nothing new there either. There has always been bias against the US. It exists in everyday life and the Olympics are a mirror of that. EVERYONE wants to shoot down the biggest and best. In pure performance events it is hard to have bias...but even there it exists. A lot you are too young to remember the 1972 US vs Russia Gold medal game where the US was robbed of the Gold. I saw it (on TV). Bias against the US has been around for a long time and is something our athletes have to overcome...just as they always have.

For those that don't remember....

1972 Final: United States vs. the Soviet Union
Soviet Union wins 51-50

In a controversy that ranks among the most hotly contested in the history of all Olympic sports, a young US team was handed its first loss ever by the veteran Soviets. The particulars of this case are incredible.

Doug Collins hit the second of two free-throws despite the game-ending horn sounding during his second attempt. His two points put the team up for the first time all game, 50-49, with three seconds left in the game. Following his free throws, the Soviet team inbounded the ball and failed to score.

However, one official had blown the play dead because of the earlier horn that sounded during Collins' second free-throw shot. That, combined with the Soviets' claim that they had called a timeout, led to the decision to put three seconds back on the clock and run the final play of the game again.

The Soviets inbounded the ball with a full-length pass and missed the final shot. Again.

The only problem? The official clock had been in the process of being reset and was not running during the second attempt to finish the game. The Secretary General of FIBA at the time, R. William Jones, ordered the clock reset to 0:03. Again.

This time, Soviet Aleksander Belov caught the long pass at the foul line and Americans Kevin Joyce and Jim Forbes went flying. He turned, drove to the basket, and won the game. Third time’s the charm.

The Americans filed a protest immediately after the game, and the three Communist countries on the five-country Jury decided against their appeal. The US players voted unanimously to refuse the medals, and some even put clauses in their wills concerning the medals.

Sami

NotaSuv wrote: »

No whinning anywhere here....did I whine? sorry then.....pure truth....dealt with I.O.C before the Denver games.......

Maybe you weren't whining but all this talk about "she should have won" surely is. Happens all the time, by everyone. Even Carl Lewis was allowed to take part in the '88 Olympics by USOC despite getting caught doping in the trials. That's worse than pulling home a little in scoring IMHO. Doesn't diminish Lewis's accomplishents though as everyone is doping, you just have to be good enough not to get caught.

exalted512

I just dont understand how gymnastics can be so objective. Its not if you liked the style of the routine...its either they screwed up or they didnt. They need to have a panel of judges that agree on one score, not an average. Thank God they have touch pads in swimming or Phelps would probably have two silvers under his title.
-Cody

mhardy6647

In case you've not seen this... this illustrates simple statistics behind China's inexorable (and unavoidable) rise to complete global dominance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMcfrLYDm2U

It's amazing to me that the US (at the moment) still have more total medals; the odds don't favor it.

devani

saw beijing games as well.....they said over 90% of the linemen are chinese....so any time chinese player goes against anyone, they are screwed...damn those chinese

Danny Tse

Demiurge wrote: »

I think you're right about that. The opening ceremony was great, but you had to laugh at how contrary the messages they conveyed were to how they actually run their country. Case in point, the little girl they deemed "too ugly," to sing in front of the world so they had to trot out some other little girl that was pretty enough to lip synch. :rolleyes:

Like I've always said, whatever "great presentation" the Chinese government does is done to show off to the world. The people of China always get the shaft in the end.

As for the little girl, it is unfortunate but I am not surprised. That type of practice is done all the time in Chinese entertainment. Ask Jackie Chan, who also performed at the opening ceremony.

Sami wrote: »

Don't whine too much about it though, the Americans know their way too when it comes to cheating and pulling it home in international stage. It's unfortunately part of the sports world, everyone does it.

Not surprised.

PhantomOG

swerve wrote: »

well... when a country's gymnast is competing there is no judge on the panel representing that country.

That's also part of the problem. Last night the commentator mentioned that fact and how its actually bad for the judging, since the judges are mainly from countries that don't even have serious gymnastics programs. So we get the world's best gymnasts being judged by a bunch of people who wouldn't know good gymnastics from their ****.

I'm glad gymnastics is over. Its insanely frustrating watching "judged" sports.

Now I get to watch this guy Bolt continue to make an **** of himself. :mad:

zingo

Can you honestly tell me this girl is 16?

Jstas

Um, since when does the U.S. ALWAYS win the gold in Baseball and Softball?


Also, Troy, the reason we lobbied for using our pros in the Olympics is because other countries were using our pros and beating up on our amateurs and making poor sportsmanship out of taunting us over it.

The big deal was basketball. It's an all-American game, conceived, developed and played here. But the problem is that the NBA is very lucrative and many of the best players were forgoing even college educations let alone a shot at the Olympic gold in lieu of tens of millions of dollars yearly. Understandable.

But the same talent from other countries did not have the professional limitation on them for their Olympic teams. Mainly because they were professionals in the U.S., not Germany or Russia or Ukraine or even China. So the U.S. amateurs that weren't good enough for the NBA were getting beat up on by NBA professionals leading other teams to medaling.

That seems like a gross abuse of the rules and spirit to me. So basically, all countries get to use pros but we are the only country with a REAL professional sports base outside of soccer. But, we now get to even the tables a bit and use our pros from baseball, softball, basketball and so on. But so does Japan, Dominican Republic, Cuba, Canada, Russia and so on.

Because on one side, the spirit of the games is in the individual achievement but on the flip side of the coin, the Olympics are a source of national pride for all countries.




On a personal note, I like seeing the U.S. letting it's professional athletes play. Yes, they do tend to have an unfair advantage because of their status as a professional game player but like what was already mentioned, that is how it is for most amateurs now too. That's not necessarily an excuse but when you are sending your best and brightest that couldn't hack it in a pro-sport up against what are essentially every other country's pro levels just to get slaughtered and taunted, were is the Olympic spirit in that? I'm glad to see we get to send our best and after decades of watching our teams get beat up and taunted, it felt good to see Michael Jordan and The Dream Team school the rest of the world in how it's done. Maybe that's arrogant to most people but I honestly don't care. You know what though? we could always allow a pack of jackasses to go and embarrass the country like they did in Athens. I couldn't even watch it and I was throughly disappointed by that display. It has been a welcomed changed to a respectable team this year. Athens, we were no better than anyone else who would beat us and taunt us.

So I'm all for pros getting to represent the country as the best. Just because you get paid to play your sport as best as you can doesn't mean you are somehow not worthy of the Olympic honor of being crowned the best at what you do.

BTW, this just isn't with Summer Olympics either. Look at the Winter Olympics with hockey. For years Canada and Russia and the Nordic countries were fielding teams with nothing but pros because they all were professional players in the U.S. Meanwhile we were suffering with a group of kids who were very talented and most barely out of high school getting pummeled by guys 5-10 years older with years worth of professional experience. Now, not so much. We also don't force our athletes to make the choice of going for Olympic gold and signing that lucrative pro deal anymore. Now they can have both and honestly their hard work and effort at being so good at their sport shows they deserve it.

Shizelbs

exalted512 wrote: »

And how about getting rid of baseball and softball because no one can beat the Americans then the Chinese beaN one of our batters giving him a concussion.
-Cody

Can I assume you did not see the American player lay out the Chinese catcher on a play at the plate? He bowled him over when a slide would have done just fine.

Getting beaned is part of the game.

Norm Apter

mhardy6647 wrote: »

In case you've not seen this... this illustrates simple statistics behind China's inexorable (and unavoidable) rise to complete global dominance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMcfrLYDm2U

It's amazing to me that the US (at the moment) still have more total medals; the odds don't favor it.

Yes, there is no doubt that the Chinese (government) has poured a tremendous amount of human and material resources into training for the games as a "coming out party." But I think we also need to put whats going on now into historical perspective. As of this writing, China has 43 gold medals and 76 total medals. The U.S. has 26 gold medals and 79 total medals. If I'm not mistaken, China had a total of 16 gold medals at the Athens games 4 years ago. Sure there may be some foul play, but is there any country or athletes from any particular country that is immune from such accusations? Just think back to the doping confirmation of U.S. runners from I believe the 84 Olympics earlier this year (medals were rescinded) or for non-Olympic examples, the Tour de France (Lance Armstrong) or MLB doping investigations. So, all in all this is jump is quite impressive -- 16 to 43 in a span of 4 years, and the games aren't even over yet. No one else finds that impressive?

Just a few decades ago the majority of China's then 1.2 billion-person population was mired in poverty. For a variety of factors (opening to Western investment and Western markets and Beijing's turn to quasi-capitalist policies), their economy has been exploding since the early 1990s and hundreds of millions of people have been lifted (or have lifted themselves) out of poverty. The performances they are getting from their athletes these days would have been unthinkable not too long ago and they are a direct reflection of this economic growth.

Now, someone mentioned that in years past the U.S., as the top dog in the world, has suffered from bias at global sporting events. Everybody wants to cut down the top guy. That may very well be true. But I feel the same sort of thing is happening with China. Whether its the Olympics or their economy or their military structure, there is a palpable sense that the country is on the rise, posing a challenge to U.S. dominance, and with that comes a fair amount of China bashing (induced in part by fear), whether it be from the right or the left. Sure, China is rife with social problems, and corruption and irregularities are ubiquitous in the country, but in the midst of all of the stories of negativity, we tend to lose sight of the great advancements that the country has made in the past 30 years. Danny is probably right when he says that the government's ostensible successes many times lead to average citizens getting the shaft; however, in the case of the Olympics, citizens of the PRC are just as proud of their compatriots' athletic performances as the nation's officials are. Who knows? Maybe even that little girl who was not allowed to sing in public because she was not "cute" enough would have felt it was worth it for the good of the nation. There's just this tumult of national pride in China these days that is overwhelming and very palpable.