listen to your SDA's without the interconnect SDA cable?

shadowofnight

Every schematic pdf I looked at...every brochure and piece of polk literature I looked at...as well as testing my own SRS...2.3...and the CRS+'s confirms that below 150Hz EVERY 6.5" driver works in phase ...ONLY with its relative channel...and with the same output.

Where polk played around with was what frequency AFTER 150Hz the SDA effect kicked in and what frequency it signed off at ( Their progressive point source for the higher frequencies technology proves this as the higher the frequency goes less tweeters are active until only one is active on the very high end ...as well as that the tweeters are vertically stacked ...cant have any differential time delay wise between them ( The VERY early sda's experimented with high end sda effect ..remember the early CRS's with dual sideways mounted tweeters ...but it was dropped right away in the sda line ).

So polk realized early on the sda effect was a midrange based technology...another problem with attempting to use sda at anything under 150Hz would be bass cancellation as the 6.5" drivers are air coupled with themselves and the radiator and that would cause all kinds of lower frequency havok inside that enclosure.

Polk was one smart cookie with this sda effect and it still shows today

John in MA

Thanks for the research. I'm curious, does that cool extra manual have a name? I've never seen one like that. I thought I had all the original paperwork. Does yours cover the 1.2 series, too?

danger boy

has anyone but me and a few other's listened to their SDA's without the cable?

shadowofnight

John in MA wrote: »

Thanks for the research. I'm curious, does that cool extra manual have a name? I've never seen one like that. I thought I had all the original paperwork. Does yours cover the 1.2 series, too?

It covers the 1.2 and the 2.3 ( Came with the 2.3 though ) ....I thought the pictures were great in it....no misinterpreting written words....it shows what is active at what frequency.

I already knew that all of the 6.5" drivers worked in unison below 150Hz....what I learned by going deeper is that I was thinking ( Along with a lot of others here ) that if the SDA cable was off you had ZERO signal going to the sda drivers...this is clearly not the case. The sda cable is a pathway for the sda frequencies from the opposite channel's crossover....the 6.5" sda drivers are actually paralleled internally inside each cabinet to the stereo drivers ( As you mentioned in your posts ) for 150Hz and below functionality.

So basically all you are losing by pulling the sda cable is the frequency range from 150Hz to 2KHz ( Give or take a frequency here and there between different sda models crossover points ) for the sda 6.5" drivers ONLY. They are still in circuit and producing output from 150Hz and below ( Which is why you lose no bass output with a pulled sda cable....you only lose the sda effect )

If you would like a copy of the manual PM me your address and I will make a copy for you.

heiney9

danger boy wrote: »

has anyone but me and a few other's listened to their SDA's without the cable?

Al, I'm all for people doing what they want but I truly have never had a need to listen w/o the cable. I've unplugged it for demo purposes when I have people over to listen that have never heard SDA's but that's only for a few seconds at a time.

I do have a few recordings that aren't really recorded for the SDA's strengths and do sound a bit unnatural, for lack of a better word, but very few are that bothersome.

Piano is the one type of recording that's gets mentioned a lot and for most of the piano music I listen too it just isn't an issue, but the George Winston can sound a little detached. In all honesty when I listen to a live piano in person the sound is extremely non-directional so in the case of piano recordings I'd bet it's the recording process that is the culprit.

H9

shadowofnight

danger boy wrote: »

has anyone but me and a few other's listened to their SDA's without the cable?

Actually, with the multiple driver sda's you might even end up with a "Cleaner" sound for recordings that have no benefit with an sda effect.

Think about it...on an SRS you have 8 drivers taking care of the full midrange spectrum ( L/R channels ) ....without the sda cable the 8 sda drivers can now reproduce the 150Hz and below bass frequencies without the sda higher frequency harmonics muddying up the bass frequencies.

Sure the sda effect widens the soundstage on music that is recorded to have a benefit from the technology ( Lots of stereo effects in the music ...moving between right and left channels...RUSH sounds amazing ) ...but a lot of music just doesnt have these stereo effects in the recording.

I would bet money a mono recording would sound measurably cleaner and with no less output ( db per watt ) on a pair of srs's that had the sda cable removed.

I didnt know at the time...but now I think I can answer why the CRS+'s sounded just as good if not better when I left the sda cable off in the family room home theatre...the transitioning between left to center to right was better and visa versa ( Only reason I even tried was because it was gonna be a major pain in the **** to run the sda cable behind all my gear ) I caved in to perceived perfection and ripped everything out to run the sda cable. I couldnt compare perceived bass loss ( Now I know there is no bass loss without the cable ) because they were set to small and only doing 80Hz and above.

heiney9

shadowofnight wrote: »

Actually, with the multiple driver sda's you might even end up with a "Cleaner" sound for recordings that have no benefit with an sda effect.

I have yet to hear a recording (except mono) that doesn't benefit from the natural human effect that the SDA provides. Recordings that have little spatial information don't suffer one bit on SDA's. My 1C's have one of the clearest presentations I've heard and the ability to see "into" the recording is really a trip. The layering of instrument and voices is spectacular. Instruments float around within the soundstage as one would imagine them in person (unless of a poor recording/mixing process)

I'll add that I do listen to a lot of live music and the SDA's are superb for live recordings, whether they be amateur bootleg recordings or professionally mixed live recordings, that's where it's at for me. ****, there are times when someone in the crowd yells out and I jump because they sound like they are right next to me

No matter what we will always be at the mercy of the source material and the recording process.


For me personally, I see no need to run the SDA's w/o the cable.

H9

shadowofnight

heiney9 wrote: »

For me personally, I see no need to run the SDA's w/o the cable.

H9

I always use the cable as well...I even left it on the CRS+'s for HT use...it was just interesting what I found out last night in terms of the sda 6.5" drivers being used for 150Hz and below with or without the sda cable...that was the interesting part for me.

I always thought if you pulled the sda cable you just chopped your active drivers in half and screwed the pooch....not the case at all.

heiney9

shadowofnight wrote: »

I always use the cable as well...I even left it on the CRS+'s for HT use...it was just interesting what I found out last night in terms of the sda 6.5" drivers being used for 150Hz and below with or without the sda cable...that was the interesting part for me.

I always thought if you pulled the sda cable you just chopped your active drivers in half and screwed the pooch....not the case at all.

Your experiments and info was great. Relearning old stuff and learning some new stuff in the process never hurts.

H9

danger boy

very well said guys.... and thanks for clearing up some of the dimensional driver info..... i learn something every time we have a lively conversation like this going back and forth. it benefits everyone with new or clairified information.

i wasn't trying to say that I only listen to SDA"s without the cable.. or that it sounds better with or without it. just for the purists, I was trying to convey that the SDA's sound quite good even without the cable. to each his own though.

i go back and forth with and without cable.

Systems

shadowofnight wrote: »

I always use the cable as well...I even left it on the CRS+'s for HT use..

Having no expierience with SDA's I'm curious as to how wide the listening window is and still being able to get the full SDA effect.

I have heard the Carver Sonic Holography generator(which does something similar though electrically) but the effect seemed limited to one listener.

heiney9

GV#27 wrote: »

Having no expierience with SDA's I'm curious as to how wide the listening window is and still being able to get the full SDA effect.

I have heard the Carver Sonic Holography generator(which does something similar though electrically) but the effect seemed limited to one listener.

I'm not sure I understand your first question. The Carver is a very limited piece; the passive approach used in the SDA's is much more realistic in the sense of compensating for natural aural phenomenon. As well as being less limiting to listening position. Early gen. SDA's, especially those that use a dimensional tweeter, were more listening position specific.

H9

P.s. maybe I did answer your first question. On later gen SDA's you can be outside the sweet spot and still benefit from the SDA experience, but the sweetspot is still the "best" for 100% listening experience.

MarcLazarek78

I pose a new simplified question; how can the IC cable hurt?

heiney9

MarcLazarek78 wrote: »

I pose a new simplified question; how can the IC cable hurt?

It can't; they were designed to use the cable and the SDA interaural crosstalk cancellation won't work w/o it. It's really not a relevant question as it's part of the design of the speaker.

H9

John in MA

I'm not sure if there's anything specific you can point to, but in general a recording with exaggerated stereo seperation or unusual sound location might sound a little weird on an SDA speaker. When you get music that's trying to unnaturally stretch things out on a normal stereo rig the SDA channel isolation can be peculiar.

There's an experimental track on one of my Jefferson Airplane albums (After Bathing at Baxters) that does some switching from mono to wide, wide stereo. In my too-small room it sounds like the drums are coming from outside the house.

Systems

heiney9 wrote: »

maybe I did answer your first question. On later gen SDA's you can be outside the sweet spot and still benefit from the SDA experience, but the sweetspot is still the "best" for 100% listening experience.

Yes it is the relative size of the sweetspot I was curious about..ie can two or three people experience the benifits.

heiney9

GV#27 wrote: »

I was curious about..ie can two or three people experience the benifits.

Yes, absolutely. The person in the exact sweetspot gets a bit of an extra treat. But all will notice the aural effect; it's not so subtle . The earlier SDA's with the dimensional tweeters are a lot more listening position specific.

H9

nms

I've used the Carver Holography circuit with my 10Bs before I had the SDAs and there's no comparison: Carver tried to solve a problem tied up in the dimensions of your ears with fancy circuitry, and it kinda worked if you had everything set up perfectly, but in my experience the sweet spot was about 2 inches wide. The SDAs do this so much better it's not even funny: you can still get the SDA effect in a box about 3 feet wide and 5 feet long.

Marty913

heiney9 wrote: »

Yes, absolutely. The person in the exact sweetspot gets a bit of an extra treat. But all will notice the aural effect; it's not so subtle . The earlier SDA's with the dimensional tweeters are a lot more listening position specific.

H9

nms wrote: »

I've used the Carver Holography circuit with my 10Bs before I had the SDAs and there's no comparison: Carver tried to solve a problem tied up in the dimensions of your ears with fancy circuitry, and it kinda worked if you had everything set up perfectly, but in my experience the sweet spot was about 2 inches wide. The SDAs do this so much better it's not even funny: you can still get the SDA effect in a box about 3 feet wide and 5 feet long.

I agree (especially about the earlier dimensional tweeter models like the SDA2) but would even go further with "benefits" to sweet spot deprived listeners. My couch is 7 feet wide & seats 3 comfortably. A large chair sits a foot or two outside of that. In each of the seating positions the SDA effect on my 1C's is very apparent. Obviously, as H9 pointed out, the center couch position is THE PLACE - except I can reach my drink as easily :eek:.

F1nut

shadowofnight wrote: »

I always thought if you pulled the sda cable you just chopped your active drivers in half and screwed the pooch....not the case at all.

As did I.......things that make you go, hmmmmmm.

I have tried it without the cable in the past and soundstage just collapses, so I can't see a reason to run them without the cable.

Systems

nms wrote: »

Carver tried to solve a problem .... and it kinda worked if you had everything set up perfectly, but in my experience the sweet spot was about 2 inches wide.

This was my impression when listening to the SHG years ago.Your head essentially had to be in vice to get the correct spatial effect.

F1nut

Actually, with the multiple driver sda's you might even end up with a "Cleaner" sound for recordings that have no benefit with an sda effect.

Any stereo recording benefits from SDA speakers. The SDA "effect", as you say, isn't suppose to make the sound come from 20 feet L/R or from behind you, etc. Rather, it is to present a realistic soundstage as if the band was playing in front of you. SDA's properly set up and with some better than average gear will present that soundstage perfectly without sounds coming from weird places 99.5% of the time. Every once in a while you'll get something whacky, but that's got to do with the recording more than the SDA's. You'll detect the whacky placement from the same recording with conventional stereo speakers as well, although it may be to a lesser degree.

Again, I see absolutely no purpose in listening to SDA's without the cable connected. To do so makes them just like all those other "less than" speakers that other people own.

shack

I bought my SDA 1Cs...because they were SDAs. If I had wanted something that didn't do what the SDAs provide...I would have bought something else.