writers strike is getting me really po'd

tonyb

shack wrote: »

Since I don't watch network TV this strike has not affected me in any way...so I don't care in this particular situation....but...

Have I mentioned that UNIONS SUCK?

You mean Jack Daniels doesn't have a union ?:D

Demiurge

rskarvan wrote: »

Executives aren't the dominant owners of a corporation. The stock-holders are the owners. Yes, executives own stock. But, nobody owns >50% of the stock of major US companies.

So, the executive teams should be modular and replaceable. University of India is just as capable of crank-ing out good management teams as any Ivy League school. And, those teams would be happy to out-perform the US teams at a fraction of the cost. Lets stop treating MBA's as "special". The fact is that skill-set is as replaceable as any other.

Uh, I own 49% of this company right now. Another executive owns 51% and they are the chief decison maker because of it. In time, I'll buy the majority share and eventually 100% share. It's also a private company, which a lot of major U.S. companies are (you don't hear about them because of it) . The reasons to stay private or go public vary. Going public tends to bring in an influx of cash that will allow rapid expansion. In that case, shareholders do have a say, and in some cases can replace and hire CEOs. Nothing is wrong with that.

tonyb wrote: »

Unions are makeing concessions to keep them afloat,but don't see anyone giveing alittle in management.

All I glean from unions has been an us vs them mentality. If you want to be a shareholder (owning part of it, public/private) in a business, then you can have some say. Until then, you're just an employee.

Myself and business partner took half salary for 1 1/2 years a while back when sales were down. Nobody knew we did that other than me and my business partner -- the rest of the people got full pay. Yet I read threads like this where guys like rskarvan look at people like me as a greedy bad guy.
So, like I said before, nobody forces you to work for an ****. If you think things are unfair let him run his own business into the ground and look elsewhere. Find a place that's fair to their employees and takes care of them.

I'm a no **** kind of guy. I'll tell you what's wrong and why. I'm upfront about costs and I take care of people when things are going well. That's how I run a business. The guy across the street may have a different view and I respect his/her right to run it however they want. Any place that doesn't treat their employees well isn't going to have employees if the positives don't outweight the negatives.

Unions aren't needed. We need to let the market work for itself. So far as I know, James and Bobman both work for someone else by choice. Why is it that they get all this, but you two don't?

Early B.

jdhdiggs wrote: »

OMG! Ron, there is a reason one of the largest companies in India is paying me and 2 other employees over $2,500/day EACH to turn their company around. It's because they can't produce the intellectual property domestically. But they can answer phones with the best of them!

That's **** and an insult to the people of India. (BTW -- you used the term, "intellectual property" incorrectly.) There are a ton of Fortune 500 companies in America that use experienced executives or consultants and pay them $2,500/day or more, and some of them are of Indian origin. My experience with consultants or exectutives is that they aren't any smarter than the mid-level employees.

FWIW -- I have my own consulting company.

rskarvan

I've spent my career working for/with the Detroit BIG 3. It hasn't been a walk-in-the-park. Maybe that is why I have a little sympathy for the UAW (who work their butts off) and I am a little disappointed by the management side of the business. The story is always the same.... the reason for all of the big 3 problems is the UAW. The fact is that the UAW has very little to do with anything on the design and sales side of the business - while the companies are bleeding market share.

MikeC78

Join the Pipe Hitters Union.

http://www.pipehittersunion.com/index.asp

tonyb

Whats not to get? You have a choice to work for someone else.All employers are not equal.Just have no faith in some owners or corporations dictateing what pay scale to use.But that is my industry,yours could be totally the other way,I dunno.You are looking at it from a small buisness owners point of view,Ron is looking at it from a big corporate evil doer point of view,I just dig the back and forth.While unions may/maynot benefit all sectors,I know it does for me and thats all I can add to this.

jdhdiggs

Dave:

I do work for myself, I just happen to be subcontracting myself to my current employer, if you catch my drift. I think people need to figure that out that you are a corporation of one person and you own both your physical and intellectual property that you choose to contract out to others for pay. If they won't pay you enough, you find another client for your services. Personally, I think it's that viewpoint that seperates acheivers from the entitlment groups.

As for why I don't own my own comapany? Not enough grey hairs to get anywhere in the business that I want to do and too much financial risk at this point. I'll get there though.

jdhdiggs

Early B. wrote: »

That's **** and an insult to the people of India. (BTW -- you used the term, "intellectual property" incorrectly.) There are a ton of Fortune 500 companies in America that use experienced executives or consultants and pay them $2,500/day or more, and some of them are of Indian origin. My experience with consultants or exectutives is that they aren't any smarter than the mid-level employees.

FWIW -- I have my own consulting company.

Actually, I used the term correctly in our case genius. BTW, I wasn't talking about US companies now was I, so what relevence does that have? Also, what Indian consulting company is there that is working in the US without being controlled by a US firm? I am not aware of any, perhaps you care to educate me. After all, we only do work for 80+ of the fortune 100 and we'd like to know who our competitors are.

If there were companies from India doing work in the US, why would we have both US and Indian companies BEGGING us to open an India office even while keeping US wage rates? I would assume any Indian based company would have a huge cost advantage over us if they had all of the engineering and analysis tools that we have developed and could do equivelent work.

It's not that India doesn't have smart people (Although I'm guessing that's what you meant as an insult to Indian's) The problem is they are no longer domestically employed. They leave for foreign countries and don't come back until retirement, if at all.

After your response I am extremely curious to know what kind of consulting you really do...

Demiurge

tonyb wrote: »

Whats not to get? You have a choice to work for someone else.All employers are not equal.Just have no faith in some owners or corporations dictateing what pay scale to use.But that is my industry,yours could be totally the other way,I dunno.You are looking at it from a small buisness owners point of view,Ron is looking at it from a big corporate evil doer point of view,I just dig the back and forth.While unions may/maynot benefit all sectors,I know it does for me and thats all I can add to this.

I appreciate the business from large corporations and I do deal with them regularly. I also deal with the 1 or 2 man operations who work out of their homes doing contracting work. I see all sides. The worst people to deal with for the most part are the big companies. I won't trash talk my customers, but the amount of **** you need to go through to process a single transaction sometimes doesn't feel worth it.

There is a reason they're so hard to deal with and the reason why has a lot to do with how much the unions have tied them up. We can argue this I guess, but it seems futile. I didn't say there aren't morons out there running businesses -- all I am saying is that a moron running a big company is the same as a moron running a small company. If you own it, it's yours to run it however you want. There are plenty of people running "mega" million dollar operations that are private companies. There really doesn't need to be a difference between big business and small business other than the size.

I'm not sure if you've ever heard of McMaster-Carr. They're my largest customer by a long shot, but they fly way under the radar and they like it that way. They're a private business and they keep their employees very happy. They're an example of a huge company that is run as well as a small company -- they also don't have a union tying their hands in any way.

Anyhow, I don't have an issue with you tonyb. You seem to understand where I am coming from. It's the irrational comments of rskarvan that didn't start with this thread and is with whom I take most issue. In general, I don't like unions nor do I support them. If you're part of one and it's working for you there's nothing wrong with that. I'm arguing the philosophy of them more than anything, not trying to needle you because you're part of one.

Jstas

Wow, you guys are angry!

tonyb

jdhdiggs wrote: »

OMG! Ron, there is a reason one of the largest companies in India is paying me and 2 other employees over $2,500/day EACH to turn their company around. It's because they can't produce the intellectual property domestically. But they can answer phones with the best of them!

Oh, and don't you follow the news? CEO's are pretty expendable from what I see, and they are pretty damn good at negotiating their own salaries...

LOL!! Yeah,agree on that front.Ceo's are pretty expendable these days,but look at the contracts they NEGOTIATED......no ownership in the company,no loyalties,just a job.The power of negotiating is all about whats at the core of a union.

PhantomOG

Jstas wrote: »

Wow, you guys are angry!

Oh yeah, well.... FORD sucks compared to Toyota!!! Because of UNIONS!!!!

Discuss.

tonyb

Demi......I know........no need to explain.

tonyb

PhantomOG wrote: »

Oh yeah, well.... FORD sucks!!! Because of UNIONS!!!!

Discuss.

Expand on that.The Unions in the auto industry need some work I can agree.They sold their members down the river in short.But for the sake of it all,tell me when you think the auto industry started to take a dump.

PhantomOG

I was poking fun. He got pretty riled up yesterday in a dicussion of Ford versus other manufacturers.

Demiurge

tonyb wrote: »

Expand on that.The Unions in the auto industry need some work I can agree.They sold their members down the river in short.But for the sake of it all,tell me when you think the auto industry started to take a dump.

Pension plans.

Jstas

PhantomOG wrote: »

I was poking fun. He got pretty riled up yesterday in a dicussion of Ford versus other manufacturers.

I wasn't "riled up". I was making counter points to arguments presented to me. I was quite calm and enjoying the discussion throughly. Sorry if I came off as being upset. I was just getting in to it and having fun.

rskarvan

jdhdiggs wrote: »

Dave:

I do work for myself, I just happen to be subcontracting myself to my current employer, if you catch my drift.

>>> For once, I completely agree with you.

PhantomOG

Nah... I know. Its nice that most people here can get into debates and keep things civil.

Early B.

jdhdiggs wrote: »

Actually, I used the term correctly in our case genius.

You're probably confusing the terms, "intellectual property" with "intellectual capital." Intellectual property is a legal term whereas intellectual capital is used when speaking about management, IT, and human resource capital.

You said Indians can't produce intellectual property in their own country. By definition, that's an incorrect statement. And if you meant to say, "intellectual capital," then that is an insult. Either way, it's wrong. Sure, you'll find Indians working in mid-level and executive positions in many countries. That's no different than Americans or Japanese or Chinese, etc. working in other countries.

To answer your question, I've been a health care consultant for 8 years.

tonyb

Demiurge wrote: »

Pension plans.

Yeah,well.....says alot for the big 3's negotiating team.Would love to know which one of those morons said,"sounds good to me".That and the union makes you jump thru 20 hoops to fire anyone is beyond me.

rskarvan

Few more things:
1. I like my defined benefit Pension Plan that is backed by the US Government. Wish my employer was still adding to it. Sigh.
2. McMaster Carr is a fabulous company.
3. Toyota is a fabulous company. Though, it is HQ'd in Japan.
4. Who knows how many years remain in the Big 3 before they sink... regardless of the reason why.
5. I saw a commercial on TV yesterday for the UAW. Thought that was interesting.
6. I really dislike most reality shows and I blame the writer strikes for making them possible.

shadowofnight

Early B. wrote: »

To answer your question, I've been a health care consultant for 8 years.

Consulting breast augmentation patients no doubt

rskarvan

tonyb wrote: »

Yeah,well.....says alot for the big 3's negotiating team.Would love to know which one of those morons said,"sounds good to me".That and the union makes you jump thru 20 hoops to fire anyone is beyond me.

When down-time in a single auto assembly plant costs $20K per minute, the negotiation team has a very tough time saying "NO".

Demiurge

tonyb wrote: »

Yeah,well.....says alot for the big 3's negotiating team.Would love to know which one of those morons said,"sounds good to me".That and the union makes you jump thru 20 hoops to fire anyone is beyond me.

It goes beyond that.

The unions hold the power, not the employer, which is the problem. If the employer gives in they can at least still have a company for a time, even if it means that down the road it will dry up. If an employer doesn't give in to the demands of the union they strike and in short order the business is toast. It's been said it's benificial for the unions to make sure the company succeeds -- I don't see that as the case. Mostly because if you're out a job you just get another one. If an employer loses his company he's out an incredibly large asset including start-up money and all of his personal money that he's had to sink into it over the years, which does happen a lot.

There has been talk of Toyota possibly buying GM. The reason it hasn't happened is because all of the pension crap and a myriad of other things pertaining to the union contracts. The UAW as a whole has been weakened greatly by Toyota's non-union operations, which is what most of their operations are.

I want the Big Three to do well again, but I am afraid it will likely never happen so long as the UAW is around.

shadowofnight

rskarvan wrote: »

When down-time in a single auto assembly plant costs $20K per minute, the negotiation team has a very tough time saying "NO".

Downtime on my wafer fab line costs a whole hell of a lot more then 20K a minute....so thats not a factor. Thats why they can hire/fire on your skills/performance alone...you dont have what it takes to get the tools up in a very short period of time...you are gone...no questions asked. There are no 20 hoops to get walked off the job....you stumble on the first hoop or two and you are escorted out the door.

If we needed 20 hoops to weed out an underperformer the business would tank...period.

jdhdiggs

Gotcha Early and I see how you read it. Actually in our case it still stands, intellectual property is/was the correct term how you and the law define it for this field. We do business engineering-primarily from raw supply ordering->production->distribution->store fronts. We have done some of that managerial BS, but we try to stay away from it which is substanitally different from the healthcare field (which we are currently entering into). If you were around I could show you more of what I meant.

BTW, 66% of the team on the project from are from India originally, just a sidenote.

Shadow: Where do you work? I used to be in a 300mm facility for TI doing IE, mfg design, and tech transfer work.

rskarvan

Shadow,
Without breaking any secrecy agreements, what is the typical Takt rate of a wafer line? And, ballpark, how much does a single wafer sell for? Just curious.

Early B.

'Eff management!!!

I say all of us should strike and demand better wages. Let's bring the whole 'effin' country to a standstill. Because without the writers to entertain us, what's the point of working anyway? We won't need the money to buy big screen TV's, DVDs, HT systems, iPods, computer rigs, or other contraptions to dull our senses.

rskarvan

Nice... Boycott... eh?