Question for da' Polkies in da' house.....

treitz3

Okiedookie. Treitz3 here and I have a question for all you guys and gals of the forum.

9 and 1/2 feet is what I have to work with. For right now, we have no other option. This is for my dedicated stereo wall. [Dedicated room coming when we upgrade the house because of the wifey expecting a little one, or an "ooops". Whichever comes first ]

I have two Polk RTi10's as a footprint, one Polk PSW1000 as a footprint and a schweeeet **** looking audio rack [32"W] to display/hold the gear. The speakers and sub all sit on marble over carpeted flooring and are all on spikes. This is my current situation.

As for hookups, my rig is very unconventional with more gear than listed [and pic's to come], so I will just stick to the basics for what I would like to achieve. I'll fill you in later on the entire rig. The system is currently hooked up with the subwoofer using the preamplifier's line outs [RCA] directly into the line in inputs. From there, I have the line out outputs of the sub going directly to the amplifier's inputs.

Note that which is highlighted. This is where [I believe, maybe not] my problem lies. Not the actual hookup, but the length of run from the pre to the sub and then back to the amplifier.

On my old audio stand, the components were off to one side of the stand, making it easy for the "old" sub location. The stand also acted as a "wall" for the frequencies of the sub to bounce off of. In the old location, the sub was in between the L speaker and the stand and was able to sound very nice in a lot of aspects. The L side of the entire rig was cornered into another wall producing some really nice reverbs and bass.

Enter a new audio rack. [preface] With this rack, I lost all A/V gear. TV, VCR, DVD, SAT, CAB, DVDR....you name it, ALL A/V crap is gone. Finne'. Sianara. Asta-la vista. So, with all this space available I was able to get a "dedicated" audio rack. It's about three feet shorter in length than the other one and just flat out bad ****. Now I have more room to play around with the speakers and subs and I have had a lot of fun [and not so much fun, as it can be a lot of work moving this rack as it's not on wheels] trying to achieve the best sound possible in the room.

Here is my main problem, which I believe I have narrowed down to what is written above in bold......the sound is not as good in the lower frequencies as before. No matter where I put the sub. I can put it [the sub] in the corner, with the speaker in between the sub and the new rack. Or I can have it like it used to be, with the sub in between the speaker and the rack. I've even tried putting the sub on the R side of the rack [no-go there, sound sucked]. I can not try it on the R side of the system [in a corner] because a door accessing the room is there. Like I said before, right here, right now, this is what I have to work with. 9 and 1/2 feet. ALSO: currently, my longest RCA IC's are 2 meters in length....and I need four with the current configuration, which I do have.

Now, finally, here's my question(s) to get the sound back, or improve LF response;

Should I go pre>amp>sub>line out to speaker or would this lose the crossover on the PSW1000?

-or-

Should I buy [4] 3 meter RCA IC's so I can get the sub into the corner [without moving the rack every time], or wherever I want to try to achieve better bass response?

-or-

I can put the sub in the other two corners and put up with the freakin' wires trapesing across the doorway's, but how would I hook it up? Also based upon experience, I don't think I'd like the LF coming from behind me when the sound stage is coming from in front of me, but I'm open to those with experience. Still, how would I hook it up and still utilize the X-over on the sub?

-or-

I also have a Velodyne SMS-1 that I haven't hooked up yet. Would this open up any possibilities that are available to me that I haven't thought about yet?

If it were your system, what would you do? How would you go about achieving what I am trying to accomplish?

Face

Instead of running wires back and forth, how about using a pair of Y's on the preamp out, 2 males one 1 female end. This would play the mains at full range and may add a little extra punch to your sub. As for the sub though, you may have to play with the phase a little so you don't cancel out your mains, etc... Do you have a SPL meter? Sounds like it's time for some test tones/sweeps.

treitz3

Face wrote: »

Instead of running wires back and forth, how about using a pair of Y's on the preamp out, 2 males one 1 female end. This would play the mains at full range and may add a little extra punch to your sub. As for the sub though, you may have to play with the phase a little so you don't cancel out your mains, etc... Do you have a SPL meter? Sounds like it's time for some test tones/sweeps.

Hehe, I knew this would happen. Not on the first response, though.

I actually have a pre that has two LL variable outputs [controlled by the volume on the pre]. One is for a tube sound, one is for an SS sound. The SS sound "route" [route 2] is what I am interested in improving. "Route 1" [which is for the upper frequencies] I have absolutely NO problems with. I'm as happy as a clam in mud there.

I do not have a test tone/sweep, unless the Velodyne SMS-1 has one and I do not have an SPL meter.

I do understand that test equipment will help me get to where I am going, but my ears [yes, EarlyB ] can determine just fine what I am missing. It's not so much the accuracy at this point, it's the missing.

I want it back.

Face

Hook up a laptop loaded with test tones up to your pre and get a SPL meter for around $30. I'd use that as a base point, then fine tune from there.
It's amazing what moving a sub 1' or playing with the phase knob can do.

treitz3

BTW, nothing has changed except the stand [and all assoc. A/V gear.] and the location of said speakers.

Where's the beef?

reeltrouble1

I would consult Jim and Johnnie, if that does not work then Jack, after which it is not going to matter anymore.

I need a picture, too many words for me to follow Tom....., if you do not like the bass do the old bass trick of putting the sub where you listen and crawling around the perimeter until it sounds best then put the thing there.

If you have another sub why not use it as well, you can try stacking or moving one to a different wall, you do not have the present sub equadistant from the back and side wall do you????

RT1

treitz3

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

you do not have the present sub equadistant from the back and side wall do you????

I went out and got some 13' IC's to play around with the sub location a little more, so to answer your question, yes. By the end of tonight I should have the sub exactly as you described. I have had it there before with good results, but when I wanted to utilize the x-over on the PSW1000, I had to move the sub to the inside of the speaker.

I also went out and blew some more cashola on a device for my computer that accepts RCA audio and video in so I can finally set up the Velodyne SMS-1. Again, hopefully by the end of the night. [I suck at ANYTHING computer :mad: ]

Where would be a good source for an SPL meter that I can use my 'pooter to actually see the frequencies? I take it I could just use the mic. provided with the SMS-1? One more question and that's it [for now], I promise . Where do I get a test tone or a sweep?

Face

RadioShack.com for a SPL meter. I personally like the digital readout better, but many swear by the analogue model.
Just search here or google for test tones, there's a few sites out there.

treitz3

How exactly would a SPL meter help me in what I'm trying to accomplish though? Doesn't it just give a Db measurement? I would want a frequency reading on at least 30-31 bands, each channel, preferably. No?

Oh, and before and after pic's coming. Not tonight, but they are coming RT1. TXS!

reeltrouble1

The spl meter is not going to do what you want. You need a techie to get that waterfall stuff, I think Sid is into it, me, I have used the Avia disc which has some sweeps and can identify standing wave problems, but its not like I am going to move the in-wall subs..........btw the Polk SWA-500 with the CSW-200 subs are awesome, to bad the 500 was DOA at the Fest, Polk sent me another pronto, but you got the idea of the CSW-200's.

cool beans on the pics......

RT1

Ron Temple

A RS Meter and REW loaded on a laptop, can get you a visual plot of what's going on in your room. You can also integrate the data in conjunction with a BFD for on the fly eq. REW is a free download, there's a link, tutorial and help thread at Home Theater Shack. I'm told there's a learning curve, but once you're up and going it's a snap. I've downloaded it, but not the java plugin yet. I'm still doing FR by hand and test tones, the old fashion way .

treitz3

Thanks Mr. Temple, I will look into that.

OK, I got the sub and speakers set up in the new position and I have all the sound again that I was used to. The sub is in the L corner equidistant from both walls currently and I will be testing different locations [now that I can] in order to get the best possible sound.

One thing I have noticed is that I was able to turn the volume of the sub up without "boom" at the bottom or without telling where the location of the sub is. No added noise in the long IC runs [13'] that I can hear, so that's a good thing. Sometimes the rig scares me with what it reproduces. A drum beat will come out of nowhere on BB King Live at the Regal and I'll duck. THIS is the sound that I was used to before I got the new audio rack.

Still need to hook up the thingy for the 'pooter and install the SMS-1, but for now, the main issue is pretty much solved. I'm still open to suggestions to achieve better sound. Whether that means a different configuration or whatever, I'm open.

treitz3

Actually, this setup sounds better than any of the past speaker locations.

engtaz

Congrats

engtaz

Face

If you can, move it side to side. Moving mine back along the wall 1' made a big difference.

treitz3

Crap. Ran into a brick wall. I am reading that the SMS-1 wants the x-over on the Polk PSW1000 disabled. I quote from the SMS-1 manual...."Disable your subwoofer's crossover if possible, and set its volume to one-quarter up to one-half setting."

Can you disable the x-over?

Face

Use the LFE input if it has one.

treitz3

Just got off the phone with Polk customer service and they said that you cannot defeat the x-over, but you can minimize the effect. I have to turn the crossover all the way up in order to minimize.

Turns out that I may be able to return one pair of the 13' IC's because I only need one run of L+R line level out from the SMS-1 to the sub.

treitz3

Eiy-yie-yie. If it ain't one thing, it's another. So I went to go hook up the SMS-1 and with the current configuration, I have to reconfigure even more. Here is my best plan of attack so far to achieve the best possible sound.

On the SMS-1.....
1. take the EQ output and hook up line level into aux. input to the pre.
2. LFE output(s) connected line level to the sub w/sub x-over all the way up. +3Db button engaged on PSW1000.
3. use the "output" and not the "thru" line level directly to the amp.

I am correct. Correct?

Oh, I have been reading up on the SMS-1 and it has a built in sweep. Cool deal.

treitz3

Face wrote: »

Use the LFE input if it has one.

The Velodyne has the input, but my pre does not have an LFE output.

treitz3

Gentlemen, meet "Sparky". My rig as it stands at this moment in time.

I forgot to take a pic of the PSW1000 sub, but it is to the left of the rig [standing in front of it] about 3/4's of a foot away from the wall.







And the Nitty Gritty just landed today....