What's the best way to break a system in?

venomclan

wingnut4772 wrote: »

Nay, I say!:p I just can't believe that electronics or cables have to burn in. I need evidence. Speakers I have no problem believing.

I believe in break in for anything with moving parts, such as the transport on a CDP, speakers, etc...

Everything manufacturers today with moving parts has a cycle failure rate. How many times can a light switch be turned on and off before it fails - usually a million, maybe 100K for lower end models. Eventually all will fail, may take many years, decades. But breakin will bring gear to its stride, in many cases.
Venom

VR3

Anyone that has owned an Odyssey piece of gear from Klaus himself KNOWS what freaky things burn in is for these components

They do some jeckel and hyde type stuff on you...

They sound polar opposite to what they do out of the box... and it just happens randomly 3 months later...

You will be listening one day and be like - holy ****! thats awesome!

treitz3

venomclan wrote: »

I believe in break in for anything with moving parts, such as the transport on a CDP, speakers, etc...

Everything manufacturers today with moving parts has a cycle failure rate. How many times can a light switch be turned on and off before it fails - usually a million, maybe 100K for lower end models. Eventually all will fail, may take many years, decades. But breakin will bring gear to its stride, in many cases.
Venom

I hope you are being sarcastic.

VR3

I have a hard time believing that... manufactures can predict how many cycles a speakers will take before it dies...

You are talking TRILLIONS of cycles, if not more in an average speakers life...

What a ludicris statement...

I think moving parts will eventually wear out, but I highly doubt they are predetermined ---

I think CDPs with moving transports have a limited life, but not for the reason you mention...

Part of the reason I like my shanling...

SolidSqual

Trey,

I hate to break your bubble, but I gurantee some companies determine the life of their components. If they made components that lasted a lifetime, who would buy their new ones? I'm not saying every manufacturer does this, but consider an apple ipod. Apple releases a new version three times a year. The battery of an iPod dies or will only hold half its original charge after a year. Do you really believe apple couldn't get hold of some technology that would make batteries last 10 years?

Consider your car, why are there 50,000 mile warranites? Because the parts will begin to break after 55,000. They make industrial earth moving vehicles that have parts that last 30 years. Why couldn't they do the same for a car?

One reasons is that all cars would cost a million dollars and no one could afford one. . . . also how pist would you be if someone wrecked your million dollar car. Most importantly, the car companies want you to buy the new cars.

But I digress, companies like Odyssey make products to last a lifetime, others are designed to fail so you have to buy the latest design.

VR3

Now Im not saying that things are not predetermined to break...

I just think its ludicris to say...

This person can press the "Open/Close" button 1000 times (500 CD changes) and then this unit will be considered broken and need repairs...

Or...

This amplifier can be turned off 10,000 times and it will fail, spontantiously combust in this mans living room, thus him needing a new one!

Or this speaker can run trough 50 trillion cycles, and the surrounds will disconnect from the cone and the spider was catch on fire and land in the middle of his living room -- thus he needing new speakers!

To me, that is just silly! lol

SolidSqual

OK I agree to that. Approximations are preferred. Afterall, a button that will last about a million pushes may last only 750,000 pushes if its punched on every time; whereas, a button gently depressed may last 1,250,000 pushes.

And that's only one factor. Everything could change if he breaks it in during a hurricane.

VR3

exactly...

Thats my partial attraction to the Shanling or something like the Rega...

There really isnt anything "mechanical" on it --

The only thing that can really break on my CDP is the laser assembly part -- the Transport, I have to open manually and close manually - and I'm pretty freaking gentle with it!

And of course, all my components stay on all the time...

Speakers should last you FOREVER

Now capacitors have a limited life - 20 to 30 years, there really isnt anything else that can go wrong unless it is just faulty...

Thats kind of why I think warranties are useless unless you have something like from Klaus -- 20 year warranty... 100%!

SolidSqual

Klaus is my hero for that thing. Just sent it in today.

SolidSqual

How do you think my Rogue Audio Metis would compare to that Candela? Do you ever swap the tubes on yours?

VR3

Hard to say -

The Candela is so freaky precise...

What you experienced with the Khartago, I cant imagine the Candela being any different. It really is a kick **** piece of gear...

Uses very high quality internals, lots of space...

I swapped them to some different ones and didnt hear any difference, apparently by design tubes dont make a huge difference...

Uses Sonicap capacitors, everything is just high quality..

Its basically what you would do to it if you modify it

Cases are tuned for low vibrations, whole nine yards ---

SolidSqual

I'm thinking about picking one up used just for comparison. I'm really impressed by Odyssey.

VR3

Hey, it has my vote - by far

They are spooky good

the Tempest is pretty sweet, just make sure its a Tempest extreme...

But its basically an Analog version - also has a pretty good Phono in apparently....

Anything Odyssey is going to rock your world, I garuntee it

SolidSqual

Have they stopped making Candelas? Is the Tempest the new version?

VR3

Candela is actually brand new, Its just not on Klaus's site..

the Tempest is the first preamp Klaus made ---

Actually, he only makes Tempest Extremes - the circuit board is much much thicker, the original Tempest's just had alot of problems -- the Extremes are hardcore...

But anyones, Klaus currently offers 3 preamps --

Tempest Extreme
Candela
Estian

the Estian sales for like 350 bucks or something --

the Candela starts at lke 1200 or so, and you can work your way up from there ---

But basically the Tempest is SS and the Candela is Tube, cost around the same...

This is alot better site for Odyssey info than Klaus's site --

http://www.odysseyaudiosg.com/

However they still do not have the Candela on there...

venomclan

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »

I have a hard time believing that... manufactures can predict how many cycles a speakers will take before it dies...

You are talking TRILLIONS of cycles, if not more in an average speakers life...
What a ludicris statement...
I think moving parts will eventually wear out, but I highly doubt they are predetermined ---
I think CDPs with moving transports have a limited life, but not for the reason you mention...

Part of the reason I like my shanling...

Speakers would not be rated in cycles, they would be rated in hours. As cars are rated in miles, boats in hours etc...

Predetermination is similar to planned obsolesence. And manufacturers do that too. Rating something in # of cycles, is more for quality control. Not they are going to fail at that exact cycle, rather they are rated to meet at least those #'s of cycles.

SolidSqual wrote: »

Trey,

I hate to break your bubble, but I gurantee some companies determine the life of their components. If they made components that lasted a lifetime, who would buy their new ones? I'm not saying every manufacturer does this, but consider an apple ipod. Apple releases a new version three times a year. The battery of an iPod dies or will only hold half its original charge after a year. Do you really believe apple couldn't get hold of some technology that would make batteries last 10 years?

Consider your car, why are there 50,000 mile warranites? Because the parts will begin to break after 55,000. They make industrial earth moving vehicles that have parts that last 30 years. Why couldn't they do the same for a car?

One reasons is that all cars would cost a million dollars and no one could afford one. . . . also how pist would you be if someone wrecked your million dollar car. Most importantly, the car companies want you to buy the new cars.

But I digress, companies like Odyssey make products to last a lifetime, others are designed to fail so you have to buy the latest design.

I agree.

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »

Now Im not saying that things are not predetermined to break...

I just think its ludicris to say...
This person can press the "Open/Close" button 1000 times (500 CD changes) and then this unit will be considered broken and need repairs...

Or...

This amplifier can be turned off 10,000 times and it will fail, spontantiously combust in this mans living room, thus him needing a new one!

Or this speaker can run trough 50 trillion cycles, and the surrounds will disconnect from the cone and the spider was catch on fire and land in the middle of his living room -- thus he needing new speakers!

To me, that is just silly! lol

I am a manufacturers representative and I have been to many factories. There is equipment setup to turn switches on and off 24 hours a day until they break. Sometimes there are "bad" batches made and those fail too early. I have seen battering ram type of machines that ram into OEM seats and components to test their strength, knowing exactly what pressure is too much, and keep it within those parameters.

SolidSqual wrote: »

And that's only one factor. Everything could change if he breaks it in during a hurricane.

In a hurricane, all bets are off. But luckily I will have a pair of ADA's as floatation devices.

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »

Speakers should last you FOREVER

The cabinets may last longer, but there are many factors that effect speaker life. In a humid environment, crossover boards, terminals and wires may corrode early. Surrounds, depending on what material they are made of, will break down. Age, hours of use and environment change the whole ballgame.

The good thing Trey, is most likely we will all flip our gear many times over in the FM before it fails.
Venom

VR3

Well, its like at the Polk HQ --

They tested their speakers in an environmental chamber -- and pretty much the goal was a lifetime expectancy...

Roughly 20-30 years to stand up to the environment, hold its finish, etc etc etc

But, if you look at Polks original speakers, 30 years old - very much still ticking...

My Dad had some 20 year old Klipsch speakers - worked like a charm...

All the SDA's, 20 years old and still going -- maybe a crossover change needed, but even some with original crossovers are still around

There is no eason a speaker shouldnt last you 20-40 years.... lol

heiney9

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »

exactly...

Thats my partial attraction to the Shanling or something like the Rega...

There really isnt anything "mechanical" on it --

The only thing that can really break on my CDP is the laser assembly part -- the Transport, I have to open manually and close manually - and I'm pretty freaking gentle with it!

Hate to break it to you (pun intended) but the laser assembly in most cdp's usually craps out long before the tray mechanism, and the laser assembly is the single most expensive part of the unit. Just saying...............

Don't fool yourself into a sense of false security thinking because you don;t have a mechanical tray it won't fail.

H9

VR3

I didnt say it wouldnt...

I know the laser assembly can fail..., even said it myself - the only thing that can really break is the laser assembly...

However, in my limited experience - I've seen ALOT of trays break, stop working, come unaligned, wore out, etc etc etc

I just in general like to have things that dont have a bunch of mechanical parts or parts in general that can break... see XBox 360

But, no false security here...

Will be interesting to see how long the Shanling will last --- It has a 2 year warranty originally, so it should die anyday

reeltrouble1

venomclan wrote: »

I believe in break in for anything with moving parts, Venom

me too, especially new Polkies.................

RT1

heiney9

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

me too, especially new Polkies.................

RT1

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

cfrizz

My original Rotel equipment that I bought when I bought my 8T's back in 1990, CD, Preamp & amp all died this year. I was amazed considering the use they got lasted this long.

However, it also made me wonder if my 8T's were going to up & die on me soon as well. Which is why I took the trip out to Goodwin Highend last week.

I know they look great but they get used every single day, sometimes all day & they are 17 yrs old. They certainly don't owe me anything & I got my money's worth out of them.

jdhdiggs

hearingimpared wrote: »

To the burnin naysayers; when I sent my Spectral preamp back to the factory for repair and refurbishing, the engineer who did the work, did a one week around the clock burnin of the preamp. Now I would find it hard to believe that these people who make these awesome pieces of gear would waste their time burning something in if it was a waste of time.

Joe: This could also be that most electronic components have a "bathtub" or "U" shaped failure rate. At TI we would always burn in chips for 50-200 hours to get rid of all of those early part failures.

It's kind of like the guy who helped rebuild my Mustangs engine when I asked him how long it would run: "If it makes it fifty miles, it will make it 100K".

That could be another reason for the repair burn-in...

sucks2beme

jdhdiggs wrote: »

Joe: This could also be that most electronic components have a "bathtub" or "U" shaped failure rate. At TI we would always burn in chips for 50-200 hours to get rid of all of those early part failures.

It's kind of like the guy who helped rebuild my Mustangs engine when I asked him how long it would run: "If it makes it fifty miles, it will make it 100K".

That could be another reason for the repair burn-in...

Boy, that's sure true. The first 24 hours after setting up a new
PBX and the extras(VOIP and multimedia voicemail) are the pits.
The servers used for the extra stuff are what normally bite it.

I always worked under the assumption that speakers break in.
My electronics are never new, so the break in there is nothing I'd ever
get to hear unless I hit the lotto. Cable break in? I've been forced to
to switch sides after getting the new Kimber ICs. I do believe I heard a
difference after a day's break in!

I don't know that any particular method is best to break in systems.
Just don't go nuts with the volume. Anything resembling science on that
count is just silly. How would you decide one method is better than another
when we can't even agree break in exists?

hearingimpared

jdhdiggs wrote: »

Joe: This could also be that most electronic components have a "bathtub" or "U" shaped failure rate. At TI we would always burn in chips for 50-200 hours to get rid of all of those early part failures.

It's kind of like the guy who helped rebuild my Mustangs engine when I asked him how long it would run: "If it makes it fifty miles, it will make it 100K".

That could be another reason for the repair burn-in...

I remember back in my field engineer days that many of the components that came with dumb terminal & dot matrix printers/telco matrix and modem cards(yes indeed I am that old) came with a life line graph showing the mortality rate during infancy, the first week powered up, and then midlife through to old age and the graph was an upsidedown U.

When I spoke to the engineer at Spectral, which I do about twice a month, about the burnin, he said, one: "he was checking for infancy mortality" and two; they wanted to burnin the outputs to make sure the biasing was right on. He also stated that they didn't want me to get the preamp and find is sounding bad because it hadn't been burned in.

I did ask if he believed in burnin making a difference in sound, replied, "certainly." I told F1nut about this becasue I never heard an engineer go there and thought he would find it interesting. . . in his matter of fact way he said, "I'm not surprised." LOL!~!!!! Boy he can really burst a bubble.

sucks2beme

hearingimpared wrote: »

I remember back in my field engineer days that many of the components that came with dumb terminal & dot matrix printers/telco matrix and modem cards(yes indeed I am that old) came with a life line graph showing the mortality rate during infancy, the first week powered up, and then midlife through to old age and the graph was an upsidedown U.

When I spoke to the engineer at Spectral, which I do about twice a month, about the burnin, he said, one: "he was checking for infancy mortality" and two; they wanted to burnin the outputs to make sure the biasing was right on. He also stated that they didn't want me to get the preamp and find is sounding bad because it hadn't been burned in.

I did ask if he believed in burnin making a difference in sound, replied, "certainly." I told F1nut about this becasue I never heard an engineer go there and thought he would find it interesting. . . in his matter of fact way he said, "I'm not surprised." LOL!~!!!! Boy he can really burst a bubble.

Dumb teminals. line printers, PDP11's, AS400, system 38.
You aren't the only one! My head is full of now useless trivia.
MTTF was a useful planning tool. The U will always be the pattern
of failure.
It's a shame no one has made any real studies on break in
of electronic/cable combos. It's got to be measurable.
If it can be heard, it has to be making a change that can be measured.

steveinaz

I use neetsfoot oil.

jdhdiggs

sucks2beme wrote: »

Dumb teminals. line printers, PDP11's, AS400, system 38.
You aren't the only one! My head is full of now useless trivia.
MTTF was a useful planning tool. The U will always be the pattern
of failure.
It's a shame no one has made any real studies on break in
of electronic/cable combos. It's got to be measurable.
If it can be heard, it has to be making a change that can be measured.

If you want one on speakers:

If you go to the AVS forum a guy named Craig Chase (may have been under his previous Craigsub or current Craig Chase username) did a speaker break-in experiment using Onix Ref3's. He played enough "stuff" through the speaker to ensure that it would be properly "broken in" and then did a true ABX and also graphed the on-axis and off axis results. I won't ruin the results so go get your search on!

SolidSqual

I can't find the results . . . anybody got a link?

jdhdiggs

It was from May 2004, I have my PM's with him on the topic but the thread looks to be either archived or deleted. I did a similar test on some LSi7's, one pair had 18 months on them, the others were brand new but his results were the same as mine but far more informative.