Digital v. Analog: One man's test

cstpeter

Excuse my humble gear, but I gotta introduce the contenders...

Digital: Denon 2900 as transport, PS Audio Digital Link III DAC

v.

Analog: Pro-Ject Xpression TT with the outboard power supply, Sumiko Blue Point No. 2 cartridge, and Graham Slee Amp 2 phono stage.

First test is Police "Walking on the Moon." Then Postal Service "Sleeping In."

My money's on analog. Let's get ready to rumble...

cstpeter

So far dynamics and bass are going to digital, I must say.

Analog has better realism and depth.

Must say this PS Audio DAC is really good...

cstpeter

It was a draw after the first two rounds, but now analog's putting a beating on digital with The Cars "Good Times Roll" and "My Best Friend's Girl." Vinyl just brings me into the music more...

EDIT: My fiance leaves town and this is what I do...compare cd's to records. Pretty sad.

hearingimpared

I'm betting on the vinyl.

rskarvan

1 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 1 1 1

tonyb

Anytime you feel like hauling that DAC out to the Algonquin area,
Been meaning to try an outboard Dac for some time now.

I'm sure your fiance appreciates your not at the titty bars.:)

Emlyn

hearingimpared wrote:

I'm betting on the vinyl.

Analog still gets my feet tapping to the music and provides a better emotional connection to the performance than anything digital I've used. However, using a turntable is inconvenient, so I usually just end up listening to CD's even though the life goes out of the music a little.

Joey_V

cstpeter wrote:

It was a draw after the first two rounds, but now analog's putting a beating on digital with The Cars "Good Times Roll" and "My Best Friend's Girl." Vinyl just brings me into the music more...

EDIT: My fiance leaves town and this is what I do...compare cd's to records. Pretty sad.

Chris,

I'm around studying and nerding it up.. you know how we roll!

Let me know if I can be of some use to you and this comparo of yours.

BTW, you got your DAC back that quick? Not bad man.

candyliquor35m

cstpeter wrote:

It was a draw after the first two rounds, but now analog's putting a beating on digital with The Cars "Good Times Roll" and "My Best Friend's Girl." Vinyl just brings me into the music more...

EDIT: My fiance leaves town and this is what I do...compare cd's to records. Pretty sad.

Have you tried a clamp? I had never heard of them until Anthony enlightened us about Joe's award winning invention. You can sign up for the demo: http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47729&highlight=the+clamp

Nice thread and keep up the good work

dudeinaroom

cstpeter wrote:

It was a draw after the first two rounds, but now analog's putting a beating on digital with The Cars "Good Times Roll" and "My Best Friend's Girl." Vinyl just brings me into the music more...

EDIT: My fiance leaves town and this is what I do...compare cd's to records. Pretty sad.

I love to listen to those two on my rig, problem is my only analog source is my tuner:( I'd love to hear them in analog.

SCompRacer

hearingimpared wrote:

I'm betting on the vinyl.

I believe it depends on the source you are comparing it to, and some stand alone sources will take quite the DAC to beat them. The better the source, the more table/phono pre you need to meet or exceed it. Even with redbook, but not all redbook cause there sure are some poorly recorded ones.

EDIT: My fiance leaves town and this is what I do...compare cd's to records. Pretty sad.

Trust, like love, needs to be reaffirmed from time to time. Hats off.

Good to see your digging the vinyl.

pblanc

I find that the appeal of analog, much like the appeal of good speakers, is not necessarily obvious and immediate. In some ways, I can't even identify what it is about analog that sounds better; I just find myself wanting to listen more, and longer, than I do with CDs. There seems to be an agreeable "warmth" or "richness" (both overused terms but I can't think of any better) that digital usually seems to lack.

I was talking to a friend of mine the other day who built a little recording studio in his basement with an anechoic chamber and the whole bit. He has a lot of diagnostic equipment. Vinyl LPs typically have, what, around 70 dB of dynamic range? Redbook CD is supposed to have 96 dB of dynamic range and SACD 120dB. So CD should beat the hell out of vinyl, at least for dynamic range, what? But he says that when he analyzes playback of the average Redbook CD on his gear, he typically sees a dynamic range of only 25-35 dB, i.e., they are horribly compressed. Is it that the recording engineers realize that the average Joe hasn't even ever listened to an LP, and is usually listening to compressed formats on computer speakers, so a CD is going to sound so much better that they don't even have to try? Or is there something about this format that, in practice, fails to live up to its potential?

pblanc

PS. I thought true love and vinyl were the same thing.

hearingimpared

SCompRacer wrote:

I believe it depends on the source you are comparing it to, and some stand alone sources will take quite the DAC to beat them. The better the source, the more table/phono pre you need to meet or exceed it. Even with redbook, but not all redbook cause there sure are some poorly recorded ones.



Trust, like love, needs to be reaffirmed from time to time. Hats off.

Good to see your digging the vinyl.

I can't affirm or dispute this because I haven't been able to listen to vinyl for quite a while. I'm chomping at the bit to get my TT up and running so I can compare the sound of red book with the Timbre DAC and soon a borrowed really great CD/SACD rig. Maybe by Tuesday I'll have me new cartridge and have that analog rig up and running.

audiobliss

pblanc wrote:

But he says that when he analyzes playback of the average Redbook CD on his gear, he typically sees a dynamic range of only 25-35 dB, i.e., they are horribly compressed.

Interesting point, there, pblanc. I would certainly hope that at least some CD's utilize the wider dynamic range offered by the medium.

cstpeter

pblanc wrote:

I find that the appeal of analog, much like the appeal of good speakers, is not necessarily obvious and immediate. In some ways, I can't even identify what it is about analog that sounds better; I just find myself wanting to listen more, and longer, than I do with CDs. There seems to be an agreeable "warmth" or "richness" (both overused terms but I can't think of any better) that digital usually seems to lack.

Well said. That pretty much sums up my conclusions last night. In my setup, vinyl is simply more enjoyable, more engaging than its digital counterpart.

I only have a limited amount of material on both vinyl and CD, but I plan on adding to this thread as I continue my comparisons.

SCompRacer

hearingimpared wrote:

I can't affirm or dispute this because I haven't been able to listen to vinyl for quite a while. I'm chomping at the bit to get my TT up and running so I can compare the sound of red book with the Timbre DAC and soon a borrowed really great CD/SACD rig. Maybe by Tuesday I'll have me new cartridge and have that analog rig up and running.

Well, it is all subjective. Could be if you were here listening, you'd say I was dropped on my head and am bonkered anyway. We all have different listening tastes and gear. All SS, SS/tube mix, all tubes, etc. I have heard SS sources that sound wonderful with my system but were edgy and harsh sounding in an all SS system. I have also heard tables and cartridges that my source bests. I have also heard uber tables that kick my source to the curb. A Grado Gold sounds way too warm with my near all tube system, but it sounds pretty good with a decent MC cartridge. I've heard the Grado Gold in an all SS system and it sounded nice.


I still believe that vinyl is system dependent and a blanket statement such as vinyl will always sound better than digital is not an absolute. Next Sunday, I will have some great audio minds from our forum here and they will be able to compare the two and give their opinions. Wednesday, you should have a nice SACD/CD player to get your ears on and I am anxious to hear your impressions after some seat time with it.

pblanc made some good points. High marks.

pearsall001

Vinyl is just too much of a bother for me to even consider getting involved with it. The music selection is almost non-existent. The "analog" sound, does it sound better than CD's on a good playback system? Debateable & a personal listening choice. I remember years ago when CD's first came out, they couldn't hold a candle to the vinyl sound. You just can't say that any more. Technology has improved the CD sound to the point that for me it is absolutely involving & gets my toes tapping like I never experienced before. Oh, does any one make a TT that works by remote yet? If so, maybe, just maybe then I would consider a TT rig. Till then I'm very content with my CD, SACD, DVD-A collection.

pblanc

The music selection for vinyl is actually pretty vast, unless you are limited to recent releases. There are new releases of prior classics coming out regularly, and if you live in a city of any size at all, there is no doubt a store selling used vinyl that often can be picked up for a song. If your interests are jazz, or classical, the selection is huge.

hearingimpared

SCompRacer wrote:

Well, it is all subjective. Could be if you were here listening, you'd say I was dropped on my head and am bonkered anyway. We all have different listening tastes and gear. All SS, SS/tube mix, all tubes, etc. I have heard SS sources that sound wonderful with my system but were edgy and harsh sounding in an all SS system. I have also heard tables and cartridges that my source bests. I have also heard uber tables that kick my source to the curb. A Grado Gold sounds way too warm with my near all tube system, but it sounds pretty good with a decent MC cartridge. I've heard the Grado Gold in an all SS system and it sounded nice.


I still believe that vinyl is system dependent and a blanket statement such as vinyl will always sound better than digital is not an absolute. Next Sunday, I will have some great audio minds from our forum here and they will be able to compare the two and give their opinions. Wednesday, you should have a nice SACD/CD player to get your ears on and I am anxious to hear your impressions after some seat time with it.

pblanc made some good points. High marks.

I agree with the blanket statement part. . .that is why I stopped doing that. The thing here for me is that analog is what is natural for the human ear. Take that sine wave change it to a digital square wave (1's & 0's) and you never can get it back to the original sine wave. You may be able to manipulate it but never will get it back. I've now experienced SACD on an admittedly cheapy SACD player and was bowled over by the naturalness of the music reproduced. However, the only real thing I've had to guage it against recently is red book CD going through a pretty decent DAC. When I get my turntable operational, I will then be better prepared via experience to make comparisons. I am all aflutter. . .I'll be listening to vinyl this week as well as a top notch SACD/CD player. Heaven, I'll be in Heaven!!!

BTW +10 on the pblanc points and marks.

hearingimpared

pearsall001 wrote:

Vinyl is just too much of a bother for me to even consider getting involved with it. The music selection is almost non-existent. The "analog" sound, does it sound better than CD's on a good playback system? Debateable & a personal listening choice. I remember years ago when CD's first came out, they couldn't hold a candle to the vinyl sound. You just can't say that any more. Technology has improved the CD sound to the point that for me it is absolutely involving & gets my toes tapping like I never experienced before. Oh, does any one make a TT that works by remote yet? If so, maybe, just maybe then I would consider a TT rig. Till then I'm very content with my CD, SACD, DVD-A collection.

Phil, buy the lazer turntable it only costs $17,000 or $19,000 depending on your preferences but they are both remote controll and you don't have to mess with a tonearm or cartridge.

hearingimpared

pblanc wrote:

The music selection for vinyl is actually pretty vast, unless you are limited to recent releases. There are new releases of prior classics coming out regularly, and if you live in a city of any size at all, there is no doubt a store selling used vinyl that often can be picked up for a song. If your interests are jazz, or classical, the selection is huge.

BINGO!!!

pearsall001

hearingimpared wrote:

Phil, buy the lazer turntable it only costs $17,000 or $19,000 depending on your preferences but they are both remote controll and you don't have to mess with a tonearm or cartridge.

Hmmmmm!! A TT read by a laser. Sounds like there on the right track for quality music playback. They're trying to get it right just like a CD player. HMMMMM!!! When your TT is up & running I'll be down for a visit. I can't wait to hear it.

John K.

Pblanc, there's a good chance that your friend's measurements were accurate, but keep in mind that these were for an "average" CD which he measured, and didn't relate to the maximum possible. The maximum dynamic range for a 16-bit CD is about 98dB(6.02n+1.76dB is the formula relating number of bits to dynamic range), but even on some classical CDs with a very wide dynamic range it almost never would be more than about 70dB. Even quiet rooms at home have a noise floor around 40dB, so something more quiet than this would be inaudible; the upper limit might be around 110dB, but even a 70dB dynamic range would bring some complaints that setting the volume for an often quiet opening would almost blast them out of their chairs on peaks. Pop recordings often attempt to be almost uniformly loud and may have as little as 10dB of dynamic range, as your friend found, but this is a result of commercial pressures and has nothing to do with the capabilities of the medium. The maximum dynamic range that can be cut into LPs is said to be about 60dB, and again, individual recordings can use far less than this.

SCompRacer

hearingimpared wrote:

Take that sine wave change it to a digital square wave (1's & 0's) and you never can get it back to the original sine wave. You may be able to manipulate it but never will get it back.

True dat, but you might be surprised how neutral, accurate and analog sounding ModWright tube gear is. While he doesn't make everyone happy, I have never, ever experienced listener fatigue with all day listening sessions.

TN_Polk_Lover

pblanc wrote:

Vinyl LPs typically have, what, around 70 dB of dynamic range? Redbook CD is supposed to have 96 dB of dynamic range and SACD 120dB. So CD should beat the hell out of vinyl, at least for dynamic range, what? But he says that when he analyzes playback of the average Redbook CD on his gear, he typically sees a dynamic range of only 25-35 dB, i.e., they are horribly compressed. . .

I think this depends alot on the recording and type of music. A lot of rock music doesn't have much dynamic range, even in a live concert. It is loud all of the time -- it is meant that way, so on the recording, there may not be much compression done -- none necessary.

However, a recording of a symphony orchestra where you have to capture the sound of, say, a single flute playing, all the way up to a climactic crescendo with everything playing at once is a different story.

I have some Telarc orchestral recordings and they have a very wide dynamic range. I've never measured it, but if I adjust the volume so that I can hear the softest passages, then the loudest passages will always evoke a "Turn it down!" from my wife.

hearingimpared

SCompRacer wrote:

True dat, but you might be surprised how neutral, accurate and analog sounding ModWright tube gear is. While he doesn't make everyone happy, I have never, ever experienced listener fatigue with all day listening sessions.

and this is why I can't wait to get my grubby little hands on that bad boy!!!

hearingimpared

pearsall001 wrote:

Hmmmmm!! A TT read by a laser. Sounds like there on the right track for quality music playback. They're trying to get it right just like a CD player. HMMMMM!!! When your TT is up & running I'll be down for a visit. I can't wait to hear it.

Here you go Phil, click here. Laser turntable!!!

and HERE are the prices.

hearingimpared

TN_Polk_Lover wrote:

I think this depends alot on the recording and type of music. A lot of rock music doesn't have much dynamic range, even in a live concert. It is loud all of the time -- it is meant that way, so on the recording, there may not be much compression done -- none necessary.

However, a recording of a symphony orchestra where you have to capture the sound of, say, a single flute playing, all the way up to a climactic crescendo with everything playing at once is a different story.

I have some Telarc orchestral recordings and they have a very wide dynamic range. I've never measured it, but if I adjust the volume so that I can hear the softest passages, then the loudest passages will always evoke a "Turn it down!" from my wife.

Or in the case of the 1812 Overture, Bolero, or the Firebird your tweeters will pop and make you turn it down. LOL

pearsall001

hearingimpared wrote:

Here you go Phil, click here. Laser turntable!!!

and HERE are the prices.

Very, very, interesting to say the least. Hey, I sent away for the free CD to explain there outrageously priced TT units. How come they don't send out a free vinyl record to explain there stuff. I guess there afraid of the bad audio quality!!! LOL What more can I say, a TT company sending out a CD to peddle there wares. This is a fine mess youve gotten us into Ollie!!
http://www.elpj.com/purchase/demo.php

John K.

Hearingimpared, as far as getting a digital signal back to the actual analog sinewave from which it was converted, doing so with total precision has been the basis of data transmission for many years in audio as well as sciences quite a bit more critical which depend on absolute accuracy. Nyquist proved mathematically about 80 years ago that if at least two digital samples were available, the analog waveform is exactly replicated. Practice in the various sciences has proven this out, and as applied to audio the result of course is that the standard CD sampling at 44.1KHz has at least two samples available up to 22.05KHz and precisely reproduces analog waveforms up to and including that frequency.