So I'm confused...

dane_peterson

Okay, this is probably going to humiliate me, but I need to ask. Concerning preamp to amplifiers...
Does a 80wpc receiver, using its preout to a 75wpc amplifier = 155wpc? In other words, does wattage add together? Or is it "the highest # wins"?

My apologies for being so naive. I learn fast, promise.

cheddar

The preout completely bypasses the amp section of the receiver. So the only component that amplifies the preout signal is the 75wpc amplifier.

Edit: The preout signal is a very low power signal. That's why it needs an amplifier to amplify it so you can hear it on your speakers. The same kind of signal comes from your source components like a dvd player etc. You can actually amplify those signals too. But the purpose of the pre-amp is to let you switch between the various source components. A receiver is just a pre-amp with a built in power amplifier section. When you add an external amp, by definition, you are bypassing this internal amplifier in favor of the better amplifier section in the external amp.

shack

Neither. The pre-out bypasses the receiver's amp altogether.

dane_peterson

Gotcha. So an 80wpc amp really isn't worth the investment.

Thanks for clearing that up, guys.

shack

I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. The amp section in a receiver is "probably" inferior to a stand alone amplifier. It really depends on what each of them are. I've heard some 50wpc stereo amps that absolutely blow away a 100+wpc AVR.

cheddar

You mean the 75wpc external amp you were mentioning earlier? External amps usually have much better capabilities than their receiver counterparts even when the 'ratings' for wattage are the same. These ratings themselves really don't mean much unless you know more about the quality of the internal components.

List the model names of the components you are comparing and people familiar with them can tell you plenty about how they think the investment will affect the sound quality.

cheddar

Dang shack,

We keep leap frogging each other in the replies...;)

dane_peterson

Well, I'm just jumping around an AudiogoN, eBay, and the like looking at some different options. So far in my budget I've seen:
B&K AV5000 Series 2 (125w x 5)
Carver AV 505 (80w x 5)
B&K AV5125 (125w x 5)
Marantz MM9000THx Ultra (150w x 5)
(All within the $500 range)

And one local but out of my budget...
B&K Reference 7250 (200w x 5)

I'm looking to jump to RTi10s by Christmas. Any of those worth pursuing?

danger boy

well do you have a pre amp or are you going to use your receiver as the pre amp? it's fine to use a receiver as a pre amp.. lots of people do.

you could also let your AVR power your center and your surrounds... if you do that you would only need a 2 channel amp. instead of a 5 channel one.. less money too. but 5 channel amps are good. gives all your speakers the same amount of power.. so two choices there for you to consider.

dane_peterson

Yeah, I was kinda thinking about that, too. I'll be using my receiver as the preamp (674's getting packed back up... gonna go HK or Denon)
I guess since I do mostly movies, I'd rather have equal power all around, though I suppose that would be somewhat wasting what I'd have in the receiver.
Still lots of deciding to do... keep the input coming!

cheddar

Just to throw another monkey wrench into your decision making, the dust hasn't really settled on the new HD formats yet and HDMI 1.3. So a new receiver or pre-amp might not have all the goodies you'd want for another year or so. You might want to go slow. Try a cheap 2 channel amp on your fronts and see if the difference is really worth it to you. Then you can resell the amp later and get a better one or buy it from a place with a good return policy in the first place.

cfrizz

I believe in doing it right the first time. I would buy a 5 channel 200wpc amp & be done with it! It will be worth saving some more money & going up to that much power. Especially since you plan on upgrading to the RTI 10's.

dane_peterson

I'm kind of thinking the same, cfrizz.
May I ask then, what do you guys recommend for that level? I'm gonna be spending some decent $, I have a feeling. Any units that stand out as being a good bang for the buck?

cfrizz

Outlaw Audio is great bang for the buck! If you keep an eye on Audiogon you might get a good deal on a used Rotel, Parasound, Sunfire. The list is endless.

I have/had all 4 of the brands I mentioned & they are all great!

audiobliss

I, personally, would rather have separate amplifiers. I'm getting the feeling I'm the *only* person on the forums who thinks that, but so be it. If you're using one 5channel 200wpc amp, all five of those channels are sharing the same power supply (though some larger amps do use two power supplies and even two power cords). I'd rather have a 2channel and 3channel amp 1) because less channels per power supply, and 2) when you're listening to music you only have to power up the 2channel amp.

As for good brands, they really do abound.

Adcom Multi-Channel Amplifiers

AMC Amplifiers

Audiosource Amplifiers

B&K Products

Bryston

Classe Power Amplifiers

Exposure

Krell

NAD Home Theater Products

Outlaw Audio Products Page

Parasound 5 channel Amplifiers

Rotel HT Multi-Channel Amplifiers

Sunfire Amplifiers



And I can't seem to find any websites for Belle or Carver.

dane_peterson

I can understand that logic, however my speakers will be used for home theater 95% of the time. Very rarely will I ever use L/R channels only. So for me, one less unit to achieve the same goal is ideal. Not to mention it's one less cable as far as power is concerned. In other circumstances however, I'd totally agree.

audiobliss

Everything is subjective, and it all depends on your goal/purpose. You very well may be better suited with one larger amplifer. I added some links to my previous post, so maybe that will help a little bit.

dane_peterson

Thanks so much for the links! Great resource.

dane_peterson

Okay, looking at my options here...
Since I'm sending my Onkyo back, what route do you think would be the brightest move?
HK 235? HK 335?
Denon 1906? Denon 2807?
All of which have preouts, but are at different pricepoints. Just can't figure out what would be the best selection.

audiobliss

If you're definitely going to add an external amplifier and it were me, I would get the cheapest HK receiver that had all the processing and input/output options you foresee needing in the future. That way you're not paying for any extra amplification you're not going to be using, but you get all the processing you think you will need. But be realistic with what you want. Don't settle for less than you want, but don't go crazy like Yamaha does with all the different sound programs they have.

However, if it really were me, I would probably just hold out for a HT preamp/processor, instead of using a receiver.

surfntomm

ive heard the denon 1907 and that sounded so good to me, but maybe it was the paradigm studio 40's it was hooked up to. i myself purchased the denon 2106 cus i found it really cheap refurbished with a 2 year warranty and it sounds a lot more detailed in the highs than a poweramp that i had previously (samson servo 550...i know not the greatest but still decent i think). depending on how loud you listen to your movies and how often you watch movies you might not even need an external amp but i am assuming the rti 10's and 12's require more juice compared to the rti 70's that i use. bottom line is id def get another denon if i had to buy another receiver.....

surfntomm

i got the 2106 in case i did want an external amp, it has preouts for all 7.1 channels, while the 1907 has preouts for only the front L/R i believe

cfrizz

Pick which ever receiver has all the bells & whistles that you want it to have!

cheddar

audiobliss wrote:

I, personally, would rather have separate amplifiers. I'm getting the feeling I'm the *only* person on the forums who thinks that, but so be it.

Not at all. I'm with you 100%. Although I do understand the need of some to have less cords, more room, etc.

My HT is for movies, music, and TV. And I actually hooked up my 7.1 rear speakers through my receiver. So when watching non-critical stuff, I just turn on the AVR, switch to two channel stereo on all speakers mode, and the current draw even with all my other equipment is just 2.0 amps. The speakers are close enough to my listening position and separated that I don't even notice that the sound is coming from behind me most of the time.

When I put in a DVD or music, I switch on either the two or three channel monster amps and my current draw moves up to 5.0 amps at IDLE. It goes way up from there depending on volume played and the source material. I'd hate to think about all the juice I'd be wasting if all my amplifiers were on just watching the news. Plus, it will probably extend the life of the expensive equipment too. .

To Dane: I really like the electronics sections of denons. I've been using a 3803 for years and it's only beginning to show its age with no HDMI switching or support for the new HD movie codecs. I was going to suggest that if you go outlaw, you could even build up with their monoblock amps one channel at a time as funds and needs allow. But if you're uncomfortable with extra power cords, I guess that's a non-starter. I guess some of us like to take smaller tweaks to our system at the cost of time and effort. But to get it all done at once is cool too :cool:.

shack

I am squarely in the RECEIVER camp for my HT rig. I simply don't want and/or need the hassle and clutter of separates for home theater. If I upgrade my Denon AVR it will be for another AVR. I currently have separates in my 2 channel rig, but I've used (and still own) integrated amps and stereo receivers and they do a fine job.

dane_peterson

More excellent input! One last question... is there a notable difference in processing capabilities between an HK and a Denon? Because I personally really like the looks of the HK, and it looks like it'd cost a little less to go that route + amp.
Narrowing it down, fellas!

Good news, by the way. I can return both my receiver AND dvd player for full refunds. They're getting packed up this week! I'll just have to suffer for a little while without anything. (I think I'll just buy a cheap DVD player until the PS3 is out.)

audiobliss

Good news on the return.

I'd say processing capabilities generally vary from model to model more so than from brand to brand. I'm partial to HK when it comes to HK versus Denon. Any way you cut it, just look for the options you want, and you should be set.

shack

Denon over HK for me. I've never cared for HK. Not very good build quality in the stuff I looked at. It's been a while though. Maybe they are better now.

danger boy

everyone has their preference for looks on electronics.. not bashing you shack.. just putting it into some kind of perspective is all. I know i like this look over that look... but Dane, it comes down to what you like and has the inputs/outputs that you need for now and for the future.

There are people on both sides that like Denon and HK, and the other half doesn't like those. I can't say if i were you which one i'd pick. The HK's look pretty sleek looking.. while the Denon's are more laid back.. but I think offer more bang for the buck.

It's your call... see if whatever one you choose. had a return policy too. Just in case.

dane_peterson

All right, I'm going with the HK AV240. Should suit my needs, and at $340 (EDIT... GOT IT FOR under $300 shipped!), I'll get a decent amount of $ back in difference from the Onkyo to invest into other things. Thanks so much for all your help, everyone! Being that this was one of my first posts on the board, I would just like to say that I've really been impressed by everyone's willingness to help! Keep it up, y'all!

Dane

Schwingding

audiobliss wrote:

I, personally, would rather have separate amplifiers. I'm getting the feeling I'm the *only* person on the forums who thinks that, but so be it.

I used to think that, too. But no longer, 5 speakers, 5 amps. Never sounded so good, and I'm unconcerned about blowing a tweeter as before. Don't think I could tolerate a sound level that would cause the Outlaws to clip.