Receiver for RTI4's
boxxkar
Posts: 43
I currently have a Harman Kardon AVR 130 with RTI4's front and rear with a CSi3 center. My question is with the Harman Kardon reciever, which has a power rating of 45 watts per channel. I purchased this reciever when I had satellite speakers and when I moved to the Rti4's I've been somewhat disappointed at the sound. It seems like the speakers are lacking at the bottom range and/or just a general feeling of warmth or speratation. One day I tried taking the rear speakers and moving them to another room and hooked them up to an old (purchased in 1992) 2 channel Kenwood reciever, and the sound was notabley better (meeting my expectations for the speakers). So, now I am thinking of changing out the Harman Kardon with something that had more power, but my question really if it is the power or the brand that is making the difference. I am not sure of what the power rating is for the old Kenwood (I am guessing it has to be higher than 45 watts of the AVR 130 as the speakers I purchased in 1992 were bigger (I think the main driver was a 6" or 8") than the RTi4's). Any words of advice with the Harman Kardon AVR 130? Should I replace it or should this reciever work with the RTI4's?
Thanks for any advice or insight on the Harman Kardon, the forms really helped me with the purchase of the RTI4's.
Thanks for any advice or insight on the Harman Kardon, the forms really helped me with the purchase of the RTI4's.
Post edited by boxxkar on
Comments
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What surround mode are you using on the HK?I never had it like this where I grew up. But I send my kids here because the fact is you go to one of the best schools in the country: Rushmore. Now, for some of you it doesn't matter. You were born rich and you're going to stay rich. But here's my advice to the rest of you: Take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. Just remember, they can buy anything but they can't buy backbone. Don't let them forget it. Thank you.Herman Blume - Rushmore
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Right now, I am using the 3 channel stereo (because I moved the rears). When I listen to music on the HK I use the non-surround mode, I forget the name, but it's the mode that only plays the front left and right without a sub.
My comparsion with the Kenwood and the HK is both with music using a two channel sound or mode. -
Do you have the speakers set to small or large?
if small, where have you set the crossover?I never had it like this where I grew up. But I send my kids here because the fact is you go to one of the best schools in the country: Rushmore. Now, for some of you it doesn't matter. You were born rich and you're going to stay rich. But here's my advice to the rest of you: Take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. Just remember, they can buy anything but they can't buy backbone. Don't let them forget it. Thank you.Herman Blume - Rushmore -
The speakers are set to large.
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btw Welcome to the Forum Boxxkar...:)
those speaker of yours are awesome speaks; if I remember correctly, Stereophile gave them a helluva write-up. That being said, they only dig so deep in the bass department (somewhere around 50 Hz, if I'm not mistaken). Do you have a sub? If so, set your speakers to small and set the crossover to 80 on your HK's OSD menu.
What this does is allow your Rti4's to handle the frequency range with which they were intended, and throws everything lower to the subwoofer. This should open them up nicely, providing you with a "less muddy" sound.
A crossover of 80 Hz is not necessarily set in stone either. Experiment and you may find that you prefer a crossover of 60 or even 100Hz.
Also... how long ago did you purchase these speakers? They do require a "break-in" time of roughly 100 hours.I never had it like this where I grew up. But I send my kids here because the fact is you go to one of the best schools in the country: Rushmore. Now, for some of you it doesn't matter. You were born rich and you're going to stay rich. But here's my advice to the rest of you: Take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. Just remember, they can buy anything but they can't buy backbone. Don't let them forget it. Thank you.Herman Blume - Rushmore -
HK in general makes a great product, especially compared to Kenwood. I haven't lisented to the AVR140, but it may be a little low in power. If I were you, I wouldn't go out and buy a new receiver. Use the pre-outs on your receiver and buy a decent, used, 2 channel amp, or monoblock amps for the RTi4's. You would see a huge difference in sound with even a 100 wpc amp.HT
RTi70 mains
CSi30 center
RTi28 Rears
Velodyne CHT-12
H/K AVR-247
ADCOM GFA-7000
Samsung PN58B860
Playstation 3
2-Channel
Polk Audio LSi15's
Rotel RCD-1072
Nakamichi CA-5 Pre
ADCOM GFA-555
Signal Cable Analog II IC's
Signal Ultra Bi-Wire Speaker Cables -
the avr140 doesn't have pre-outs...I never had it like this where I grew up. But I send my kids here because the fact is you go to one of the best schools in the country: Rushmore. Now, for some of you it doesn't matter. You were born rich and you're going to stay rich. But here's my advice to the rest of you: Take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. Just remember, they can buy anything but they can't buy backbone. Don't let them forget it. Thank you.Herman Blume - Rushmore
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but I agree.... HK makes awesome products and 45 watts of HK should definitely do the Rti4's justiceI never had it like this where I grew up. But I send my kids here because the fact is you go to one of the best schools in the country: Rushmore. Now, for some of you it doesn't matter. You were born rich and you're going to stay rich. But here's my advice to the rest of you: Take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. Just remember, they can buy anything but they can't buy backbone. Don't let them forget it. Thank you.Herman Blume - Rushmore
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I am really happy with the Rti4's, they sound great with the 2 channel setup and the old Kenwood. It's the HK that I am having a problem with, be it with the tuning/setup of it or the power.
I purchased the speakers nearly a year ago. I ran the HK and these speakers in a smaller room up until a few months ago when I moved. The new space is a little larger, but it's not siginificantly larger enough to make a difference (at least I would think not).
I do not have a sub, but the Rti4's and the Kenwood produce enough low end for me. They just sound so different with the HK.
Zombie boy 2000, I looked up the HK AVR240 and found that it had 7 channels at 50 watts each but noticed that you also have an amp (the Rotel?). Did you add the additional power because of your floor speakers? What difference did the additional amp make if you ran these speakers on the HK before adding the amp? -
It's quite possible that your Kenwood might have a higher power rating than the HK. Could you let me know the model?
As for the addition of an amp to my set-up, the Monitor 70's (though not as power hungry as the Rti floorstanders, or any of the Lsi's) still require a bit more juice than the Rti4's. An external amp would make your speaks sing, no doubt....
but they really should sound fine running off of 45wpc from an HK.
Now that I think of it, I believe the AVR140 runs 50wpc in stereo mode and 40wpc in all surround modes -- but 5 watts really is nominal. To notice an increase of 3db, you would have to double your wattage.
Another thing, what source are you using -- we may need to address this....I never had it like this where I grew up. But I send my kids here because the fact is you go to one of the best schools in the country: Rushmore. Now, for some of you it doesn't matter. You were born rich and you're going to stay rich. But here's my advice to the rest of you: Take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. Just remember, they can buy anything but they can't buy backbone. Don't let them forget it. Thank you.Herman Blume - Rushmore -
I will look into the power rating of the Kenwood, I know I still have manual filed away somewhere. I will check into that tonight.
By the way I have a HK 130, not a 140. It seems the 140 is similar, but a newer model. It has six channels and the 130 has five channels. -
or pull the model # and look it up on-line (might be quicker than rummaging through your files:) )
still... let me know what you're using for a CD player and what cables you're using to connect to the receiverI never had it like this where I grew up. But I send my kids here because the fact is you go to one of the best schools in the country: Rushmore. Now, for some of you it doesn't matter. You were born rich and you're going to stay rich. But here's my advice to the rest of you: Take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. Just remember, they can buy anything but they can't buy backbone. Don't let them forget it. Thank you.Herman Blume - Rushmore -
With the HK setup downstairs I mostly listen to songs from an Ipod or music stored on my computer (accessed through Tivo).
Upstairs with the Kenwood setup the source is usually either the CD player from my computer or xm radio online.
Come to think of it, I have not tried listening to the Ipod upstairs with the Kenwood or listening to a CD downstairs. I will try that tonight and also pull the model number from the Kenwood. -
Now things are starting to make a little more sense.....
I really can't speak directly from experience (maybe someone else could chime in?), but it's my understanding that there is a noticable degradation of sound quality when using an Ipod as a source.
Hook that CD player up to the HK and report back tomorrow... let us know if you don't hear a vast improvement.
btw how recently did you pick up your HK? will you be able to return it if it continues to disappoint?I never had it like this where I grew up. But I send my kids here because the fact is you go to one of the best schools in the country: Rushmore. Now, for some of you it doesn't matter. You were born rich and you're going to stay rich. But here's my advice to the rest of you: Take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. Just remember, they can buy anything but they can't buy backbone. Don't let them forget it. Thank you.Herman Blume - Rushmore -
I purchased the HK about March/April of 2004. At the time I was running a set of Klipsch satellite speakers, so I didn't think much about the power rating on the HK.
Thanks for your help. -
You're welcome
I'm not saying to dump the HK (just yet), but you're right in assuming that the Rti's have the potential to sound better. "How much better" depends on how much you're willing to spend.....
I know it's been addressed, but by providing the specs on the Kenwood we should be able decide whether it's a power issue or a set-up/source issue. If it's the former, you might be able to sell it, and put the money toward either a higher-end receiver -- or some separates. If you choose to go the receiver route, I'm all with A Mattison in that you should invest in something with pre-outs. I stumbled upon that "feature" unknowingly, and it was a lucky thing indeed..I never had it like this where I grew up. But I send my kids here because the fact is you go to one of the best schools in the country: Rushmore. Now, for some of you it doesn't matter. You were born rich and you're going to stay rich. But here's my advice to the rest of you: Take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. Just remember, they can buy anything but they can't buy backbone. Don't let them forget it. Thank you.Herman Blume - Rushmore -
I checked the power of the Kenwood and as it turns out it has 80 watts RMS versus the HK at 45 watts. So, is it reasonable to say the difference I am hearing between the two setups has to do with the difference in the amount of power? Is there a "sweet spot" in regards to the amount of power a receiver should have?
I did not get a chance to test the differences in source material. -
Are we talking 80 watts per channels, or 80 watts both channels driven? I'm not that familiar with Kenwood's earlier integrateds but I'd take 45 watts of HK over 80 watts of today's Kenwood everyday of the week and twice on Sunday. If you could just look at the front of your receiver and provide us with a model # for the Kenwood, I'd be able to help you out more....
As for a "sweet spot" for power output, I've never heard of too much power being a bad thing -- only too little. The more, the merrier in other words...I never had it like this where I grew up. But I send my kids here because the fact is you go to one of the best schools in the country: Rushmore. Now, for some of you it doesn't matter. You were born rich and you're going to stay rich. But here's my advice to the rest of you: Take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. Just remember, they can buy anything but they can't buy backbone. Don't let them forget it. Thank you.Herman Blume - Rushmore -
I would agree as well, the HK's 45wpc would be much better than the kenwood's. Don't forget that the HK has much better AMp than the Ken as well.
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The Kenwood was 80 watts per channel. I didn't bring the model number with me, but when I tried to look it up online I could not find any info on it (it's probably just too old, I purchased it in 1991). I still had the manual, which is where I got the specs from.
When you say the HK's 45 wpc is better than the Kenwood's 80 wpc, is this the quality/cleaness of the output or are you suggesting that the output of the two would be the same even though the wattage is different? -
Unfortunately, I cannot speak authoritivaley about your Pioneer. I do believe that the 2-channel integrateds of 15 years ago, probably have a leg up on some of the more HT driven receivers of the here and now.
That being said, I would still assume that your HK has a larger and beefier amp section than your Kenwood.
I guess it boils down to this, though. If you can determine that it's not the difference in source causing the discrepancy, than move along to bigger and brighter climes. Everyone here would love to provide you with a long, long list of suggestions to make your Rti4's shine. Or, if you're satisfied with the way they sound with your Kenwood -- keep on truckin' and make the switch.
But again, until we rule out either source or set-up, I'm still holding out hope for the HK:)
...unless you've got money burning a hole in your pocket:DI never had it like this where I grew up. But I send my kids here because the fact is you go to one of the best schools in the country: Rushmore. Now, for some of you it doesn't matter. You were born rich and you're going to stay rich. But here's my advice to the rest of you: Take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. Just remember, they can buy anything but they can't buy backbone. Don't let them forget it. Thank you.Herman Blume - Rushmore -
No, I don't have money burning a hole in my pocket so I had planned to keep tweaking the HK. I've already been through most of the settings, but there's a lot there and I will keep looking and playing until I come back to the amount of power. As I mentioned earlier, I moved recently and haven't had the time to finish setting up/tweaking the system in the new place yet.
By the way, the Kenwood was just something that I had laying around. If I were to replace the HK, I might go with a Denon or even another HK. Other than the wattage, I haven't any problems with HK and would still consider purchasing it again. -
*I meant the wattage of this particular HK unit, not the power of HK in general.
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I'm with you all the way on the monetary situation. And if things were as simple as throwing money at every problem encountered, then this hobby wouldn't be one-tenth the fun it is.
Quick question... how do you have your tone controls set on the HK?I never had it like this where I grew up. But I send my kids here because the fact is you go to one of the best schools in the country: Rushmore. Now, for some of you it doesn't matter. You were born rich and you're going to stay rich. But here's my advice to the rest of you: Take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. Just remember, they can buy anything but they can't buy backbone. Don't let them forget it. Thank you.Herman Blume - Rushmore -
boxxkar wrote:*I meant the wattage of this particular HK unit, not the power of HK in general.
If HK isn't your bag, I would never in a million years take offense. Some people find them too warm and laid-back for their likings, and prefer the slam or punch of something like a Yamaha. Polks, in general, are laid-back speaks (at least to my ears), and Harman Kardon does nothing to counteract this when thrown into the mix.I never had it like this where I grew up. But I send my kids here because the fact is you go to one of the best schools in the country: Rushmore. Now, for some of you it doesn't matter. You were born rich and you're going to stay rich. But here's my advice to the rest of you: Take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. Just remember, they can buy anything but they can't buy backbone. Don't let them forget it. Thank you.Herman Blume - Rushmore -
I assume you are talking about the tone in / out or the bass and treble?
On the HK I have the tone in and the bass and treble set to maybe 1 or 2 o'clock from flat (noon, using the same clock analogy). -
boxxkar wrote:I assume you are talking about the tone in / out or the bass and treble?
On the HK I have the tone in and the bass and treble set to maybe 1 or 2 o'clock from flat (noon, using the same clock analogy).
Yeah... just checking. You never know.
Where are your speakers positioned?I never had it like this where I grew up. But I send my kids here because the fact is you go to one of the best schools in the country: Rushmore. Now, for some of you it doesn't matter. You were born rich and you're going to stay rich. But here's my advice to the rest of you: Take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. Just remember, they can buy anything but they can't buy backbone. Don't let them forget it. Thank you.Herman Blume - Rushmore -
Right now the speakers are sitting on top of a entertainment cabinet. I had planned to move them to speaker stands, but I have not found ones I was happy with yet.
The other set of Rti4's that are connected to the Kenwood are actually hung the wall. -
zombie boy 2000 wrote:Now things are starting to make a little more sense.....
I really can't speak directly from experience (maybe someone else could chime in?), but it's my understanding that there is a noticable degradation of sound quality when using an Ipod as a source.
Hook that CD player up to the HK and report back tomorrow... let us know if you don't hear a vast improvement.
btw how recently did you pick up your HK? will you be able to return it if it continues to disappoint?
I play my Wife's Nano through my HK often and think it sounds great. If you have th EQ on the nano on there is some overinflated bass, but everything else sounds pretty good.HT
RTi70 mains
CSi30 center
RTi28 Rears
Velodyne CHT-12
H/K AVR-247
ADCOM GFA-7000
Samsung PN58B860
Playstation 3
2-Channel
Polk Audio LSi15's
Rotel RCD-1072
Nakamichi CA-5 Pre
ADCOM GFA-555
Signal Cable Analog II IC's
Signal Ultra Bi-Wire Speaker Cables -
The 45w/channel on the HK will be fine enough to drive the Rti4s. First step: Check simple things like speaker wire polarity (also gauge too: hk recommends 14 gauge wire and nothing thinner than 16ga), etc. With all that switching, it may be possible to have an oversight.
Check your speaker levels too.
Also try the HK with different sources..
Does the Kenwood have a loud setting? This will overemphasize the lower frequencies at lower volumes therefore making it sound more punchy at lower volumes.
Try the HK using Dolby pro logic II, music.Receiver: harmankardon AVR235
Mains: polk R30
Center: polk CSi3
Rear Surrounds: polk R20
Subwoofer: polk PSW404
DVD: Panasonic DVD-S29
