This is my first post and it's about speakers and receivers

dizzy4sound

Hello,

This is my first post and I am stuck on what to do. I am building a home theatre system and I have the projector( infocus 4805) and the screen ready to go. I need sound. Currently, I am using an entry-level HTIB, but I love sound so I need better speakers. I was looking into the LSi series and noticed the nominal impedence is 4 ohms. Before I saw these speakers I selected the Denon 2807 to be my AV receiver. I found that the impedence on that is 8 ohms.

My questions are:
1)What type of receiver is best suited to run the LSi speakers? I would prefer to get a receiver that has digitial(HDMI) inputs(2; 1-projector,1-upconverting DVD player)

2) If I use the Denon 2807 AV Receiver, what else would I need to do to prevent the receiver from possibly overheating?


Thanks
Dizzy

Willow

Welcome,

You need not worry about heat from your receiver. You need to worry about the damage from not pushing enough juice to your sepakers. You have somne options:

1- if your receiver has pre-outs , then you can add an external amp.
2- buy the Rti line up.

cheddar

Dizzy,

This topic comes up a lot with the LSIs. There are other threads you can search for that will tell you lots of stuff about how to get the most out of LSIs with proper amplification.

What it breaks down to is that lower impedance speakers will draw more juice from your amp. If your amp can't keep up with the demands of the speaker, it can lose control of the signal and fry your speakers. So more clean watts is always better than a low powered amp section.

You can tell the general output of a Denon receiver by what the thousands digit is. 2000 and 3000 series receivers are mid-level and will not be adequate to drive LSIs at high volume. 4000 and 5000 series receivers are capable of driving the LSIs, but not to their full potential.

So for the difference in price, it usually works out much better to stick with the 2807 and buy a seperate amp to power at least your front three speakers (L C R). You will find no shortage of recommendations about what amp to get on this forum, but if you have the extra money to spend, you will be rewarded with a real quality system. Or you could do as willow also says and buy 8 ohm speakers and save some money. Depends on how much sound quality is ultimately worth to you. Have fun!

cfrizz

Hi Dizzy welcome to Club Polk!

No worries, your Denon has preamp outputs in back, just get a 5-7 multichannel amplifier of no less than 200 watts per channel & you will be good to go!!!

Good bang for the buck amplifers are Outlaw Audio. But you can also get good ones from Parasound, Rotel, B & K, NAD, etc.

aaharvel

or you could just save a lot of $ and hassle of the lsi's and buying a separate amp altogether and simply get the rti's. They're very good speakers, and the denon will drive them no problem.

Unless money is no object, and being that your system is home theater based and not one centered around music, imo the end wouldn't justify the means. Try out the rti/denon combo before you splurge.

(edit) If you do go the LSI/separate amp path, don't go half-**** and get an amp to power just the front 3 speakers. Do it right. Get a 5channel amp to power all of them.

sickicw

the Denon 2807 looks like a good receiver mainly because it can accept multichannel pcm inputs from a bluray player or hd-dvd player over hdmi.

Now on to your question. How much r u wanting to spend? if you can affort $1200 to $3000 on a good amp(s), then lsi will sound better. The more power the better, and biamping helps a lot too. If not, then go with the rti. I had the rti speakers and was happy with them before i upgraded to the lsi.

Also your reciever will heat up (to some degree) if you use it only as a pre amp. It might take many hours to get to thermal shutdown or it might not ever happen. My onkyo takes about 8 hours of loud listening. To fix this problem, i ran my rear speakers to my receiver. That way the current gets transfered to the speaker and doesnt have to get converted to heat in the receiver. In other words, your receiver will pull current regardless if it is hooked up to a speaker or not.

cheddar

aaharvel wrote:

(edit) If you do go the LSI/separate amp path, don't go half-**** and get an amp to power just the front 3 speakers. Do it right. Get a 5channel amp to power all of them.

This opinion has always interested me that amp powering the front 3 is somehow inferior to all the speakers at once. To me, it seems to be more of a cost/benefit trade-off. If cost is no object, then of course, get as much amplification as needed to power all the speakers. But if you need to spend your dollars with the most bang for the buck, then, especially with LSIs, you need to buy the most amplification for the mains as possible.

100-160WPC just won't make an LSI sing like 200-400WPC. I recently tested out a canon volley on Master and Commander and my left main speaker peaked at 2X my center channel and 6X either surrounds' watts. So compromising amplification dollars for the mains to add separate amplification to the surrounds doesn't always mean better sound quality.

aaharvel

cheddar wrote:

This opinion has always interested me that amp powering the front 3 is somehow inferior to all the speakers at once.

imo it is. You have timbre and level issues to consider, not to mention mix and match compatability.

cheddar wrote:

100-160WPC just won't make an LSI sing like 200-400WPC.

Not true. At normal listening levels, the speaker will not approach those numbers advertised, unless the volume is turned up to anything close to reference level. Thats where the power supply and current capability that dictates the actual quality of those wattage specs will come into play regarding quality of sound, clipping, and peak levels.

I'll put a B&K 150 watt amp up against an Adcom 300watter any day of the week on some lsi's.
Same with a 50 watt Harman Kardon AVR against a "100 watt" Sony AVR on some rti's.

Wattage is only a small piece of the puzzle - how many times do we have to go over this on these boards?

jdhdiggs

Bang for the buck, just amp the outside fronts. , 3 is better, 5 is best. Andrew is right though, if you are going for a LSi setup, go all the way and amp all of them better matching and balancing is easier. As for the "power" thing. The most the power meter has ever read on my amp was 43W and that was on the 83dB efficient maggies that are flat to 35Hz. The LSi's have only ever seen 10W peaks. I only use 2W in one of my systems. More isn't always better unless you are talking bass (way down low)or inefficient speakers. You just need to ensure that your amplification circuits are rated to handle the 4 Ohm load. Every receiver will have the capability of generating the voltage needed, just not the current which will clip the amp.

Shhh, don't tell anyone that I power my LSi centers via my receiver... (wired 2 in series = 8ohm)

dizzy4sound

Excellent! Thank you guys...This is alot of information. I do have some sort of a budget and I think I may go the RTi route first before I go all-out. I need to start somewhere.

What are recommendations on the RTi line? Also, I love bass, so what type of subwoofer would you guys recommend?

With the receiver costing about $800. I can afford to spend close to $1500 on speakers (of course, I will be looking for a deal and NOT pay MSRP - so don't be discouraged to recommend something that may cost more than $1500)

Thanks!

aaharvel

dizzy4sound wrote:

Excellent! Thank you guys...This is alot of information. I do have some sort of a budget and I think I may go the RTi route first before I go all-out. I need to start somewhere.

What are recommendations on the RTi line? Also, I love bass, so what type of subwoofer would you guys recommend?

With the receiver costing about $800. I can afford to spend close to $1500 on speakers (of course, I will be looking for a deal and NOT pay MSRP - so don't be discouraged to recommend something that may cost more than $1500)

Thanks!

for the subwoofer: the SVS ISD-10 is bulletproof choice. I wish I had one.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/svs-pb10-subwoofer-10-2004.html

The rti4, csi3 and fxi3 would be tough to beat.
http://stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/1004polk/
http://www.audioreview.com/POLKRTI4crx.aspx

jdhdiggs

I would go with the 8's and 5's in the front with the SVS. fill in the best you can with the rest of your budget. The front soundstage and bass are the foundations of a good ht experience

dizzy4sound

What about the RTi12?

cheddar

aaharvel wrote:

I'll put a B&K 150 watt amp up against an Adcom 300watter any day of the week on some lsi's.
Same with a 50 watt Harman Kardon AVR against a "100 watt" Sony AVR on some rti's.

Wattage is only a small piece of the puzzle - how many times do we have to go over this on these boards?

Sorry, should have said all other things being equal. Yes you can get cheap low quality big watts (sony) and expensive high quality small ones (15W tube amps). But all I was saying is that if you're on a budget, which it seems dizzy is, then it can also make sense to put your money into a two or three channel amp that is of equal or higher quality (power supply, current capability) than the five or seven channel amp. It gives you more choices and flexibility in price.

At normal listening levels, the surrounds can certainly be driven by the AVR once the mains are moved off it. Then dizzy can add another identical amp for the surrounds later when the money comes along, if dizzy thinks he's missing something.

It's not necessarily an inferior choice. Just a different upgrade path. I agree completely that getting the same amplification on five of my speakers (backs are still on the AVR) was an improvement. But it was a case of diminishing returns from the initial move of my mains off my AVR.

Dizzy, listen to the RTis and LSIs to see if either would meet your needs. It sounds like you want towers so it may be difficult to go through the return process, but it is worth it to listen to them both before you decide to buy. We all have different tastes here and what one person thinks sounds good, may not be what you think sounds good in your set-up.

Then if you really like the LSIs, don't be afraid to experiment with affordable two or three channel amps before you go all in on an expensive five or seven channel solution. But the RTis are a good line too and would be less of a hassle. But I've heard people on this forum say that the separate amplification can improve the sound of the RTi towers too. Isn't this hobby great?

Edit: Oh yeah, on the M & C volley test, my mains hit 53W, center 25W, and surrounds only 8W peak. But as long as the front stage is solid, I'm just not sure how much you could hear the difference if those surround 8W were produced by my amp or my AVR. And heavy bass hits on my classical DVD-As can send my mains over 200WPC for short periods.

jdhdiggs

dizzy4sound wrote:

What about the RTi12?

With the 12 you have a couple issues:

1). If you use a sub and x-over to the sub, you spent a lot of money on a speaker that you aren't using the full capabilities of.

2). If you don't x-over them, they demand a ton of power to produce the lows that they are capable of. I would say that the 12's require the most power of all the current speaker lineups (LSi included)

jdhdiggs

cheddar wrote:

Edit: Oh yeah, on the M & C volley test, my mains hit 53W, center 25W, and surrounds only 8W peak. But as long as the front stage is solid, I'm just not sure how much you could hear the difference if those surround 8W were produced by my amp or my AVR. And heavy bass hits on my classical DVD-As can send my mains over 200WPC for short periods.

Are you deaf? There is NO reason you should be hitting 200W unless you are in a huge room playing at 120 dB. What speakers are you using?

dizzy4sound

I think what I will do is start off with the RTis. Since 12 seems to have some problems, I will go with the 10s. I will find a dealer where I can check them out in person. I am more of a bass person than anything else.

I am on a budget...so hopefully the denon 2807 will be able to run the RTi10s and CSi5 and surround sound speakers.

Any other suggestions before I purchase? What type of cables/wiring is best for this?

Thanks
Dizzy

GATOR3000

Dizzy welcome to the forum. Getting the Rti10’s and Csi5 is an excellent choice. The 10’s will give you a fairly decent bass and Csi5 is an outstanding centre for HT. I had the CSi3 prior to Csi5 and IMO the 5 matches with the 8’s and 10’s a lot better.

Ultimately you should get an external amp at least 100-200wpc to get the best out of your 10’s. The bass and overall soundstage would improve dramatically. Most people audition speaker in uncontrolled acoustic environment and don’t get to hear what Rti’s really sound like. The 8’s and 10’s are amazing speakers providing you give them ample of clean power.

Gator

cheddar

jdhdiggs wrote:

Are you deaf? There is NO reason you should be hitting 200W unless you are in a huge room playing at 120 dB. What speakers are you using?

Not yet . I have LSI15s as mains, LSIC, LSIFX, and LSI7s for rears. Most stuff, including movies, I've found as you've said, to be very hard to push past 100W without my ears giving out. The M & C cannon volley was plenty loud at only 53W and I think I would normally listen to it even lower than that.

But for some reason, the TELARC Tchaikovsky 1812 DVD-A seems so soft at normal levels, with the details in the Overture (chorus, etc.) not really coming out unless I crank it a little. Then WHAM! Cannons! I think that in general, classical music highs are much less amped than in other types of music. And the crescendos tend to be far more bass heavy. I think that explains why I can listen to classical music at higher levels and the short bass heavy peaks draw a lot of power from the amp. Edit: Now that I think of it, certain movies, like House of Flying Daggers are the same way, with the drum extension drawing a lot of power. Not so hard on the ears, but definitely draws on the amp...

But like I said, I don't normally drive my amp that high. But when I really want to see what it can do, I sometimes go to excess. I think the only thing to cry uncle was my poor PSW450 bottoming out. Gotta save up for an SVS .

cheddar

Just checked the numbers and what you listen to really has an affect on SPL and watts delivered.

Master and Commander Cannon volley:

Peak Watts on LSI15: 53W
Peak SPL: 101db

Cossack Dance on 1812 DVD-A

Peak Watts on LSI15: 79W
Peak SPL: 94db

So I wasn't just hearing the difference in classical music dynamics. Those bass hits are power hungry, even if they don't necessarily sound real loud relatively speaking.

jdhdiggs wrote:

The LSi's have only ever seen 10W peaks.

I wonder how you keep your LSIs so reigned in?

EricBurg

Dizzy,
While I think the Rti10's are quality speakers (I use them in my theater), I'm not sure they are the best choice if you are going to get a quality sub and you are on a budget! Seriously, I got the Rti10's thinking that I would run them at a lower crossover point, off the pioneer 1015 reciever and would get better sound than I was getting out of my Rti6's...boy was I wrong. What I found was that they required way more power than my reciever was willing to give up, so $1k later (rotel 1080), what I found was that I actually prefered letting my SVS sub handle most of the low bass below 80hz. In retrospect, I think that the financially wiser choice would have been to either keep the Rti6's up front or maybe only go for the Rti8's and with the money I saved not buying an amp and bigger speakers, spend more on a little better sub. I like the sound of the SVS pb10, but I think I would have liked one of the bigger SVS or even the Martin Logan Depth subs for the money spent.

For the price range you are looking at, you could go with 2 Rti6's up front, the CSi5 center, Rti4's for surrounds and a good SVS sub. This would keep you under your budget and allow you to run all the speakers efficiently off the reciever power. Then later, you could always go with the Rti8's or 10's and move the 6's to the back channels for 7.1 or sell the 4's for a nice 5.1 system. Something to think about.

Eric

jdhdiggs

cheddar wrote:

Just checked the numbers and what you listen to really has an affect on SPL and watts delivered.

Master and Commander Cannon volley:

Peak Watts on LSI15: 53W
Peak SPL: 101db

Cossack Dance on 1812 DVD-A

Peak Watts on LSI15: 79W
Peak SPL: 94db

So I wasn't just hearing the difference in classical music dynamics. Those bass hits are power hungry, even if they don't necessarily sound real loud relatively speaking.



I wonder how you keep your LSIs so reigned in?

Your power to volume is really out of whack. Somethings seems to be going wrong in your setup. By simple calculations you should be hitting ~107 dB @ 79W each speaker and if you have them setup correctly, that would be 113 with just the fronts, 116 all speakers. That is earbleeding above 50 Hz (Ok, ear ringing). It looks like you have something out of phase causing you to use a whole lot more power than you should.

With my setup I'm getting over 120 dB on the MC track you listed, over 104 with the sub off and only ~10W/channel peaks on the front channels. That is with an "at reference" level on a calibrated system.

dipiazza

Bass rules for movies. If you want to stay with floorstanders go with the
Rti8's and get the biggest SVS you can afford.

dizzy4sound

I am willing to spend the extra cash for the svs sub. According to what I just read, EricBurg is saying to let my sub power my speakers instead of my receiver?

Please give me your thoughts on this setup for 99% movies:
Infocus 4805(purchased)
Denon 2807
RTi10s (L/R)
CSi5(C)
RTi6s (SL/SR)
SVS Sub(PB12-Plus)
Some upconverting DVD-Player(recommendations?)

dipiazza

You will be WOWed with that! Enjoy

EricBurg

Let your reciever power your speakers. What I was trying to say is that anything bigger than the Rti8's and you'll probably need some external amplification and I'm not sure you'll gain much by going to the 10's. You'll have to listen for yourself, though. While the 10's may go a little lower, I think having a quality sub will more than make up for the difference below 80hz.

Eric

cheddar

dizzy4sound wrote:

I am willing to spend the extra cash for the svs sub. According to what I just read, EricBurg is saying to let my sub power my speakers instead of my receiver?

I think he means to use the bass management functions of your receiver to send your signal below 80hz to your subwoofer. That way, you can use smaller speakers because they only have to handle the frequencies above that.

dizzy4sound

I gotcha. I will try out both RTi8s and 10s. I can use the pre-out on my receiver to drive the sub.

Any recommendations on a quality upconverting DVD player?

jdhdiggs

For some people the 8's are more clear in the midrange when crossed over due to two mid drivers instead of 1 on the 10. When you demo both, ask to have them X-overed to a sub and turn that sub off. That way you can listen to the quality that the speakers will give you. Try other speakers as well. A lot of people like klipsch for HT use and they need less power to run.

Upconverting DVD- Oppo Digital (the DVD player, not the all in one). For $200 it tests out higher than any other DVD player other than the Denon 5910 which it tied. The Denon is a LITTLE more expensive...

dizzy4sound

I was swaying between Klipsch and Polk. I will do the research, thanks ALOT for everything.

BlueMDPicker

dizzy4sound wrote:

I was swaying between Klipsch and Polk. I will do the research, thanks ALOT for everything.

I have two HT systems utilizing Klipsch/HK (and SVS) in one and Polk/Denon in the other. Come over and check them out.

Now, GET BACK TO WORK CODEBOY!