Surrounds to match SDA SRS 1.2TL's

puunda

I'm trying to find a speaker which will match my 1.2TL's to be used as surrounds/rears. I don't need a center as I will be sitting in the middle, and the SDA works so well that a child can hear the dialogue in the middle.

I've tried the RTA8TL's, but there is a clear audible difference when running the test tone on the receiver, which idicates to me they sound quite different, and they should. Got a pair of LSi15's which I could use for rears, but I suspect the sound of that would be quite different as well.

But that's not the main problem. The wife wants her living room back. I can keep the 1.2's in the front, but the rears will be have hung, or really really small. I've always thought that rears should be as big as the fronts, or at least a floorstanding full range speaker, but that's not important as that's not going to happen now.

I've seen a pair of LS f/x speakers for sale quite cheap here recently. Being what they are, I can hang them quite easily. I have 2 questions about them.

1. Will they match the 1.2's well enough sonically to be able to enjoy a good movie?

2. How well does the human ear/brain hear 'height'? My thought is if I hang the speakers, they would of course be higher than your ears at the listening position. That being said, when a cool sound which moves front<>back comes along, am I going to hear funny things? Not only from big 1.2 to small LS f/x (or vice versa), but also from ear level 1.2's to much higher level LS f/x?

Thanks in advanced.

Puunda

F1nut

The RTA 8TL uses a different tweeter, a better timbre match would have been the RTA 15TL or the RTA 11TL.

As for the rest, I can't help you.

dorokusai

Darque Knight found his LSi's to be a pretty close timbre match for his SDA 1.2's ala HT.

puunda

That's fair enough about matching the sound. But at the moment I just can't use any RTA or LSi speakers, or any floor stander in fact. I'll need something small to hang on the wall. So from the sounds of things, the LSi 7 or 9 bookshelfs could do. But I'd rather not pay retail. Anyone know if the LS f/x has a similar sound?

dorokusai

The LSi F/X is part of that whole series, and a Polk Audio suggested match....why wouldn't it work?

You're concerned about size and you ask about the LSi F/X over the LSi7?

Good luck man, I'm sure you will make a solid decision.

puunda

dorokusai wrote:

The LSi F/X is part of that whole series, and a Polk Audio suggested match....why wouldn't it work?

Sorry about the confusion. The ones up for sale right now are the LS f/x not the LSi f/s

Still the same 2 questions.
1. How well does it match the 1.2TL's
2. Being hung higher up on the wall (above ear level), will there be a noticeable difference in the sound when watching a good movie with good surround sound?

dorokusai

puunda wrote:

Sorry about the confusion. The ones up for sale right now are the LS f/x not the LSi f/s

Still the same 2 questions.
1. How well does it match the 1.2TL's
2. Being hung higher up on the wall (above ear level), will there be a noticeable difference in the sound when watching a good movie with good surround sound?

There is one LSi surround speaker, the LSi F/X. It wouldn't be new to see another model number overseas, but the speaker is the same.

puunda

dorokusai wrote:

There is one LSi surround speaker, the LSi F/X. It wouldn't be new to see another model number overseas, but the speaker is the same.

Again, sorry for the confusion. I should've mentioned that the speakers I'm looking at buying are not new. They are the LS f/x not the new/current LSi f/x. I'm assuming that the LS f/x is the di/bipole surround for the old LS series speakers, as is the LSi f/x to the LSi series.

Have been told that the LSi series matches up with 1.2TL's quite well. Wanting to know if the LS series will be the same.

dorokusai

OOOHHHH ok....no.

Larry Chanin

puunda wrote:

I'm trying to find a speaker which will match my 1.2TL's to be used as surrounds/rears. I don't need a center as I will be sitting in the middle, and the SDA works so well that a child can hear the dialogue in the middle.

I've tried the RTA8TL's, but there is a clear audible difference when running the test tone on the receiver, which idicates to me they sound quite different, and they should. Got a pair of LSi15's which I could use for rears, but I suspect the sound of that would be quite different as well.

But that's not the main problem. The wife wants her living room back. I can keep the 1.2's in the front, but the rears will be have hung, or really really small. I've always thought that rears should be as big as the fronts, or at least a floorstanding full range speaker, but that's not important as that's not going to happen now.

I've seen a pair of LS f/x speakers for sale quite cheap here recently. Being what they are, I can hang them quite easily. I have 2 questions about them.

1. Will they match the 1.2's well enough sonically to be able to enjoy a good movie?

2. How well does the human ear/brain hear 'height'? My thought is if I hang the speakers, they would of course be higher than your ears at the listening position. That being said, when a cool sound which moves front<>back comes along, am I going to hear funny things? Not only from big 1.2 to small LS f/x (or vice versa), but also from ear level 1.2's to much higher level LS f/x?

Thanks in advanced.

Puunda

Hi Puunda,

I don't mean to complicate the issue, but Dennis Erskine, a professional home theater designer whose opinion I greatly respect, is of the opinion that it is simply not possible to perfectly timbre match surround speakers to the front speaker array as the thrust of your question seems to hope to achieve.

We've got a number of things working against us. Foremost is the way our hearing works. We simply can not hear sounds coming from the rear and above as acutely as from in front and below. (I believe this has to do with the shape of our ears.) This automatically causes a change in timbre. By the way, some scientists believe it is this shift in timbre that helps our brains to figure out that the sound is coming from the rear rather than the front.

Then adding to the mismatch in timbre is differences in directivity of dipole speakers versus direct radiating speakers.

Having said this, I'm not suggesting that we completely ignore the issue of matching rears and fronts, just not to expect the perfect, and much more critical matching, that it is possible to achieve between main speakers and an identical center channel speaker.

As you know there are two basic approaches to surround speakers, dipoles and direct radiating. Dipoles excel in making it difficult to localize sounds. This is helpful in reproducing ambient effects such as rain, wind, etc. Direct radiating surround speakers are easier to localize. Therefore, they are better at reproducing sounds such as flyovers, etc. where we want to be able to precisely localize the sonic image.

So getting back to the issue of height, as I mentioned our hearing is less acute listening to sounds coming from above. That means its easier to fool our hearing into believing the sound is coming from the on-screen action. Now if we add to that the fact that dipole speakers are difficult to localize in the first place, then if they are elevated slightly above ear level it stands to reason that they might be even more difficult to locate. And in this instance, that's a good thing.

Conversely, direct radiating speakers are already easier to locate, and if we were to locate them at ear level in a small room typical of most home environments, we might find that they sound like they were "IN YOUR FACE" and therefore unduely distracting. So elevating them also might be helpful. (Obviously we are dealing with a lot of personal preferences here, so frequently there's a heated debate between the pros and cons of both approaches to surround speakers.)

Obviously, how well all this works will depend on the content of the movie. Does it have a lot of ambient effects or a lot of panning of direct sounds? In 5.1 systems we have to make a choice in which approach we plan on taking to surround speakers, indirect (dipoles) or direct. With 7.1 systems I prefer to have direct radiating speakers for my surround back speakers. This permits sounds to precisely fade front to rear and pan left to right between the direct radiating fronts and the direct radiating rears. Then I use dipole speakers on the sides to "fill-in" the ambient effects. 7.1 systems permit us to have the best of both worlds.

The net result of all this, especially if you have a good surround processor that puts true stereo in the surround back speakers is a thoroughly convincing envelopment of both types of surround effects.

With regard to selecting rear speakers it is not clear whether you are dealing with a 5.1 or 7.1 system. Nevertheless, the LSi series, including the In-Wall versions such as the big LC265i may be an excellent choice.

Here's some comments from Matt Polk in response to my question about matching my SDA-1C's to a suitable surround back speaker. (I was interested in In-Walls, but Matt briefly discusses other types as well.) Your drivers may be slightly different than mine, but I believe Matt's advice still is relevant.

Help Matching Surround Back speakers to SDA-1Cs in Home Theater

Larry

puunda

Thanks for the reply. I'll be using 5.1 (4.1 really, no center).

From what I can understand of your message, you may or may not 'hear' or notice that the rear speakers are hung higher than your listening position, and di/bipoles may or may not be better than normal speakers. All depends on material, and taste. I've noticed this kind of thing happens a lot in audio, but I guess that's 1/2 the fun is finding out.

But what I did get from the post though is that the LSi series seems to be quite a good match for my 1.2TL's. So that looks like where I may head.

Thanks.

Larry Chanin

puunda wrote:

Thanks for the reply. I'll be using 5.1 (4.1 really, no center).

From what I can understand of your message, you may or may not 'hear' or notice that the rear speakers are hung higher than your listening position, and di/bipoles may or may not be better than normal speakers. All depends on material, and taste. I've noticed this kind of thing happens a lot in audio, but I guess that's 1/2 the fun is finding out.

But what I did get from the post though is that the LSi series seems to be quite a good match for my 1.2TL's. So that looks like where I may head.

Thanks.

Hi Puunda,

You're welcome.

Pardon the long-winded response, but I was attempting to respond to your question "How well does the human ear/brain hear 'height'?" In a nutshell I was attempting to relieve your anxiety about the height of your surrounds causing you "to hear funny things".

With regard to dipoles, personally I think they are a good choice for 5.1 home theater systems, especially if the room is small and some of your listeners may be located close to a surround.

On the other hand many people who listen to a lot of music, including multi-channel music, prefer direct radiating surrounds. I believe some of the Denon receivers provide the means to permit you to choose which type of surround is used.

Yes, the LSi series is probably the best new speaker match to vintage SDA's. As I mentioned the LC265i In-Wall also has the same drivers as the LSi series, and may be a good choice to address your wife's concerns, while still giving you a bigger yet less obstrusive speaker. It also has an optional performance enclosure that fits inside the wall that is tuned for the speaker. It will give you a more predicatable response than placing the speaker directly in the wall and it probably will lower the response a few dB. I'm using them in my 7.1 setup as surround back speakers and they go almost as low as the SDA's.

Larry

rskarvan

I'd recommend the 2.3TL's for surrounds.