War of the World's Blew my LSiC

tdeluce

Larry Chanin wrote:

Hi,

I was wondering if you could elaborate?

Did the speaker just start to work after "resting"? If so this could suggest that the tweeter's thermal protection tripped and reset after it cooled down. However, if that were the case you would have heard your other drivers continue to work even if the tweeter was silent.



I'm wondering whether those expectations are realistic if you plan on playing this particular movie at reference level? It would be interesting to know whether Polk Audio has any technical information that would indicate what the maximum volume their LSIC's are rated for before the protective tweeter circuit operates, or overall failure occurs?

Based on the speakers efficiency and it's maximum power rating we can guess that the maximum sound pressure level a meter away from the speaker would be between 109 and 112 dB. This was arrived at by knowing that at 1 watt this speaker will put out an spl of 88 dB as measured 1 meter away. If we double the power the spl will increase by 3 dB. So at 2 watts it will put out 91 dB. If we continue in this manner at 128 watts it will put out 109 dBs and at 256 watt, 112 dB.

Larry

I unplugged my amp overnight so not absolutely sure if it is the amp or
the speaker. It seems to be working o.k. now but I did I did have to
do the same thing after watching "Skeleton Key". Most movies are o.k.
it appears that only a few of the more challenging ones are a problem...

If a center speaker cannot play reference level or even a few dB above
at 9 feet away from it it is pretty much worthless to me... There will
always be peaks above reference in many movies...

McLoki

The power handling of the speakers are for continuous power. It should be able to handle clean peaks well above the continuous power level. For rock music and other sound that is not very dynamic (peaks not much above the constant spl of the background) it will not put out much more than the 110 or so spl that you mentioned.

For the very dynamic output of movies (20 db dynamic range) it can put out higher spl provided your amp can put out the clean current it needs. There are physical limits, but it should be able to put out peaks in the 115 - 118 db range. If asked to do this for more than a few seconds though, something will end up breaking.

If Max SPL is you thing, Klipsch or another efficent speaker may be a better choice for you. Given clean power, the LSi's will be able to play at reference level - I would not push them above that level though and definately not with non-dynamic material.

Michael

BTW - this is all opinion, no warrantee is given or implied...

Larry Chanin

tdeluce wrote:

If a center speaker cannot play reference level or even a few dB above at 9 feet away from it it is pretty much worthless to me... There will always be peaks above reference in many movies...

Hi,

In rereading this thread I see that Michael (McLoki) has already gone through these numbers. Sorry Michael for rehashing it.

EDIT: Michael sorry I was composing this response before I read your last posting. I guess the values I refer to are RMS values. However, some folks who have watched this movie state that the high-energy bass can last up to two minutes, so maybe the numbers are not so far fetched as they appear.

We can calculate the relative dB between the 1 meter reference spls and your 9 foot actual listening distance as:

Rel dB=20log (distance to reference location/distance to actual location)

So at 9 feet versus 1 meter (3.28 feet) each of Michael's calculationed dB's at one meter would have to be reduced by 8.8 dB to arrive at the spl at the listening location.

So at 128 watts the spl at the listening location would be 100.2 dB.
At 256 watts the spl at the listening location would be 103.2 dB.
To achieve about 112 dB at the listening location, which was measured for this movie at - 1dB below reference, would theoretically require about 2,048 watts. This would deliver 121 dB at one meter, or 112.2 dB at the listening location.

If these theoretical numbers are correct you would need two SDA SRS's to handle the 2,000+ watts and two very large amps. :eek:

I plan on having the guy's over to listen to this movie later this week. My SDA-1c's are rated at 500 watts each, and my dual SDA-CRS+ centers can handle 400 watts. My main amps can handle about 350 watts and my two center channel amp would provide a total of about 500 watts. I've got both the mains setup as small and crossed over at 60 Hz to a Velodyne subwoofer that can go down to 15 Hz. The centers are crossover at 120 hz and the bass is redirected to two additional subwoofers that can go down to 20 Hz. Even with this arrangement, I still don't plan on playing this movie anywhere near reference level. I normally play at -15 dB, but based on your experience, I'm thinking of setting it up for about -20 dB. I'll also have to lower the gain on my two ButtKicker amps to avoid bottoming out the transducers.

Larry

McLoki

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I was referring to 115 spl at 1 meter to allow for reference level (or darn near) at the listening position.

I should have included the classic SDA's in my recommendations for speakers capable of high output. Many are 95db efficent and have power handling in the 500-1000 watt range.

Edit - just to make sure we are all on the same playing field, my understanding of reference level is 80db-85db normal levels with 105db peaks from all speakers. 115db peaks would be the requirement of the subwoofer with all speaker set to small. (all db's at the listening location)

Michael

BTW - my normal listening is -20 to -26. Normal loud levels (when the wife/kids are out of the house) is in the -12 to -15 range. While I can play louder (have demoed master and commander at -6) I just don't enjoy an entire movie at that volume....

tdeluce

McLoki wrote:

The power handling of the speakers are for continuous power. It should be able to handle clean peaks well above the continuous power level. For rock music and other sound that is not very dynamic (peaks not much above the constant spl of the background) it will not put out much more than the 110 or so spl that you mentioned.

For the very dynamic output of movies (20 db dynamic range) it can put out higher spl provided your amp can put out the clean current it needs. There are physical limits, but it should be able to put out peaks in the 115 - 118 db range. If asked to do this for more than a few seconds though, something will end up breaking.

If Max SPL is you thing, Klipsch or another efficent speaker may be a better choice for you. Given clean power, the LSi's will be able to play at reference level - I would not push them above that level though and definately not with non-dynamic material.

Michael

BTW - this is all opinion, no warrantee is given or implied...

I am not looking for sheer SPL. I like the accuracy of the LSi series and
don't intentionally listen above reference level. The LSiC
should be enough as long as it is supplied gobs of clean current :-)

Larry Chanin

tdeluce wrote:

I am not looking for sheer SPL. I like the accuracy of the LSi series and
don't intentionally listen above reference level. The LSiC
should be enough as long as it is supplied gobs of clean current :-)

Hi,

I envy you having that 600 watts per channel amp and I'm sure it will help.

However, to put this thread in perspective, assuming there are sustained passages in this movie at about 112 dB at the seating location, there's no LSi speaker, including the largest Floorstanding model, that could come close to sustaining this level. (At least in theory. )

I also would like to apologize to the owners of SDA SRS's and correct something I stated earlier:

Larry Chanin wrote:

If these theoretical numbers are correct you would need two SDA SRS's to handle the 2,000+ watts and two very large amps. :eek:

Correction: Assuming the high energy bass is sustained, it should require only one SDA SRS per channel plus an amplifier rated at about 1,048 watts per channel RMS to play this movie at reference level. An old Stereo Review magazine puts the efficiency of the SDA SRS's at 91 dB, so it should in theory put out a sustained 112.2 dB at the listening location with 1,048 watts RMS of power per channel. Although the SDA SRS are technically rated at only 1,000 watts continuous, I'm sure that if the deep bass duties were handed off to a capable subwoofer, there shouldn't be any problem handling 1,048 watts of power, and then some.

Regards,

Larry

steveinaz

tdeluce wrote:

I was about one third into watching the War of the World's at
reference sound level and my LSiC blew. I was driving it
with an Outlaw M2200 monoblock rated at 300 watts per
channel but I am pretty sure I wasn't close to 300 watts.

By the way, this movie's soundtrack rocks like none other.
It sounded like the frig'in tripods were coming up through my
family room floor!

Has anyone else had a problem wiht a LSiC? Would
a single LSi9 be better for a center channel ( they
look pretty much identical except for the casing ).
Or was this just bad luck?

I assume your tone controls are flat or defeated, correct? Aside from that, amplifier clipping could pop the tweeter as well...

Larry Chanin

Hi,

It's not just center channel speakers that are at risk with War of the Worlds played near reference levels.

In this thread a guy reports damaging his SVS subwoofer at -8 dB below reference.

War of the Worlds damaged my SVS!

Larry

wingnut4772

You know what...my SVS PC Plus had a little chuffing going on with this. I ran it about 3db hot in DTS at -10 under reference. My PB12 Ultra/2 just laughed at it. I can see where that horn might give some centers trouble if played loudly and underpowered. My better half heard it from the other end of the house and asked if Aboriginees were attacking.

BIZILL

anyone else notice that the dvd's dts track is actually considerably louder than your normal movie? i'm sure i won't ever have probs, but i set my svs level lower just for this movie and this movie alone.

Sami

BIZILL wrote:

anyone else notice that the dvd's dts track is actually considerably louder than your normal movie?

DTS tracks in my experience are normally much louder than DD tracks. You have to remember that Reference Level is Dolby Reference Level, not DTS Reference Level. When I used to listen at reference I always turned DTS track down by 10db to be safe.

WilliamM2

okay, so i'm not as lazy as i thought. just played back that scene. at lower volume it made the same distortion-like sound. re-tried it with dolby digital vs. dts. same outcome. thank god for banana plugs. pluged center channel to play through the right rti8...same outcome. the sound is was recorded that way. it's not distortion, but damn hell sounds like it is. very shi**y in my opinion. actually sounds like my tweets are ready to explode.

I watched the movie last weekend as well, and I noticed the same exact distortion on the first horn blast of the movie. I lowered the volume almost all the way, and it was still there. It is definetly part of the recording, not distortion. I'm suprised so many here didn't notice it. Other than that, my system never even broke a sweat at -6 db from reference. No chuffing from my Energy s12.3 sub either.

And I agree with the others, although the movie had some great bass, and decent sound, it wasn't worth renting.

Larry Chanin

Hi,

Just had the guys over to do a double feature, this movie and Sealth, both in dts.

Listened at -15 dB for both. Personally I thought that the normal dialog for War of the Worlds wasn't as loud as Sealth. Special effects, that was another story.

Larry

tdeluce

I got my new amp hooked up.

Seems to sound better than the Outlaws to me even at regular listening
levels. Fuller, richer, more dimensional...

War of the Worlds at reference level - well, this AMP definitely is MUCHO better. Un-frig'in-believable!!!

Its a keeper :-) This AMP rocks!

Widescreen mag reviewer claims best amp they ever reviewed under $4,000
in issue #46 ( which of course was a few years ago ).

Here are some other reviews for the five channel version ( same chassis but
two more monoblocks ):


http://www.earthquakesound.com/cineova.htm

http://www.earthquakesound.com/clint_walker.htm

McLoki

So based on your review I assume it was your amp limiting you to below reference level? Hear any benefit in your rear channels by moving them to the outlaw?

Congrats on the amp, it really does sound like a beast.

Michael

wingnut4772

I was actually looking at one of those Earthquake dealies because I have those power hungry LSIs with my Outlaws. I can't imagine them sounding any better though. I also can't imagine listening to this flick at reference level-at least not in my living room. Maybe in the theater...please post more on your findings on the Earthquake vs Outlaw.

tdeluce

McLoki wrote:

So based on your review I assume it was your amp limiting you to below reference level? Hear any benefit in your rear channels by moving them to the outlaw?

Congrats on the amp, it really does sound like a beast.

Michael

Thanks!

The LSiC seems to have no issue with War of the Worlds at reference
levels when driven by the Earthquake AMP.

I don't hear any difference in my surrounds ( haven't done a really
close analysis yet either ). I recently went to 5.1 ( the Denen AVR-4802
is rated at 270 watts per channel / 2 channels driven into 4 ohms ) from
6.1 ( used to have 7.1 :-) so the Outlaw monoblocks ( 300 watts into
4 ohms ) may not be much different on my surrounds.

There is only so much power you can rip out of the wall even with isolated
circuits so would rather have higher power 5.1 channels than lower power
6.1 or 7.1 channel systems.

tdeluce

wingnut4772 wrote:

I was actually looking at one of those Earthquake dealies because I have those power hungry LSIs with my Outlaws. I can't imagine them sounding any better though. I also can't imagine listening to this flick at reference level-at least not in my living room. Maybe in the theater...please post more on your findings on the Earthquake vs Outlaw.

At reference level on War of the Worlds there is no question, the Earthquake
is MUCHO better than the Outlaw monoblocks.

Absolutely un-frig'in-believeable...

At normal listening levels, I believe I am hearing better imaging and a fuller,
richer sound ( even with guitar strings, etc. ). BUT, I have not done a
blind test, etc. to really know. I will agree that it is certainly possible that
at normal listening levels ( say -20 dB from reference ) that there is not much of a difference.

DarkHorror

How do you know that your listening to a certain movie at reference level? Considering how loud or soft different movies are, or even how the level changes between DD and DTS on a single movie.

tdeluce

DarkHorror wrote:

How do you know that your listening to a certain movie at reference level? Considering how loud or soft different movies are, or even how the level changes between DD and DTS on a single movie.

What I mean is that my system is set up at reference level, i.e. 75 dB from
9 feet away. The DVDs, of course, varry for sound level and DTS tends
to run hotter overall than DD. There are also peaks on all movies that
can be much higher than reference level. I don't bother to calibrate
each for each movie...

Larry Chanin

DarkHorror wrote:

How do you know that your listening to a certain movie at reference level? Considering how loud or soft different movies are, or even how the level changes between DD and DTS on a single movie.

Hi,

As I understand it, when you calibrate the levels of your Dolby receiver/preamp with test tones and a sound pressure meter, you are setting the reference level for your system, at the listening location. This means that after calibration, a passage in a Dolby Digital source intended by the director/sound engineer to be heard at say 75 dB in a commercial theater, will be reproduced on your home equipment at 75 dB, if you set your master volume control to 0 dB. Other louder and softer passages of the movie will likewise correctly track the volume on your equipment if the volume is set to reference (0dB). If your receiver is set to -15 dB it will reproduce all passages 15 dB lower than the director intended, i.e., 15 dB below reference.

My understanding is that dts soundtracks are 4 dB louder than Dolby Digital reference. However, some THX certified receiver/preamps recognize this and adjust the output downward by 4 dB when playing dts sources.

So in the worst case if you set your receiver/preamp to reference and you are playing a dts source, you might be actually playing +4 dB above Dolby Digital reference.

Larry

Larry Chanin

tdeluce wrote:

I don't bother to calibrate
each for each movie...

Hi,

I'm not sure you could do this even if you wanted to. When you calibrate your equipment you are using a reference test signal. This can be either an internal test tone generated by your receiver/preamp, or a CD/DVD source. In either case, the test tone has nothing to do with sound levels of the movies you will be playing. Some THX certified DVD's have calibration test signals on them, but even they have no correlation to the levels of the movie on the same disk.

As a consequence it is unlikely that dialog on one movie will be delivered at the same sound pressure level as another movie. Hence my comment in a previous posting:

Listened at -15 dB for both. Personally I thought that the normal dialog for War of the Worlds wasn't as loud as Sealth. Special effects, that was another story.

Larry

tdeluce

Larry Chanin wrote:

Hi,

As I understand it, when you calibrate the levels of your Dolby receiver/preamp with test tones and a sound pressure meter, you are setting the reference level for your system, at the listening location. This means that after calibration, a passage in a Dolby Digital source intended by the director/sound engineer to be heard at say 75 dB in a commercial theater, will be reproduced on your home equipment at 75 dB, if you set your master volume control to 0 dB. Other louder and softer passages of the movie will likewise correctly track the volume on your equipment if the volume is set to reference (0dB). If your receiver is set to -15 dB it will reproduce all passages 15 dB lower than the director intended, i.e., 15 dB below reference.

My understanding is that dts soundtracks are 4 dB louder than Dolby Digital reference. However, some THX certified receiver/preamps recognize this and adjust the output downward by 4 dB when playing dts sources.

So in the worst case if you set your receiver/preamp to reference and you are playing a dts source, you might be actually playing +4 dB above Dolby Digital reference.

Larry

Thanks Larry - that is my understanding also.

wingnut4772

Tdeluce, any updates on your comparisons of the Earthquake to the Outlaws..now that you've had it a bit?

tdeluce

wingnut4772 wrote:

Tdeluce, any updates on your comparisons of the Earthquake to the Outlaws..now that you've had it a bit?

At reference level on War of the Worlds there is simply no comparsion.
The Outlaw Audio Monoblock M2200 clips and the Earthquake Rocks!
I watched WofWs at 3 dB above reference level with the Earthquake and
WOW - un-frig'in-believeable. The "Horns" are incredible - I believe
the sound is much more mid-range through them than Tweeter.
The soundtrack on this movie is just amazing

But for most soundtracks at normal listening listens I believe the Earthquake
AMP does sounds fuller and more detailed but I am willing to accept that this
may be subjective ( but it certainly sounds that way to me :-)

I believe most people ( including myself :-) would be very happy with
the Outlaw amps from most soundtracks at normal listening levels...

wingnut4772

You should be ashamed of yourself for making me want to spend more money
Seriously, thanks for the comparisons .....Since you got the 3 channel does the front soundstage blend ok with the surrounds?

tdeluce

wingnut4772 wrote:

You should be ashamed of yourself for making me want to spend more money
Seriously, thanks for the comparisons .....Since you got the 3 channel does the front soundstage blend ok with the surrounds?

Sorry :-)

I am only 6 feet from my surrounds but I am 9 feet from my LCR and
the surrounds tend not to require as much power ( at least that
is my perception ) so the Outlaw Audio Monoblocks work great.
I use the Polk LC265i in-ceiling which use the same tweeters and
driver material as the LSi series so they sound the same...

I was driving my surrounds with my Denon AVR-4802 for a few years
but after swapping to the Outlaw's I noticed the grill covers' of my
in-ceiling surrounds were blown off about 3/4 of an inch :-) Even
though this is definitely not scientific in any way, I suspect the outlaws
are doing a better job with my surrounds :-)