RTI-12's, Am I really Underpowered?

captainmoop

I recently purchased a pair of RTi-12's to upgrade some old Realistic towers I was abusing. Since reading some of the other threads I am wondering if I am seriously underpowered for my set-up????

Will a 200-300w 2 ch amp really make a huge difference or is my VSX 55TXI (Surround Power 100W x 7 (20HZ-20kHZ @ 8 ohm, 0.09% THD) Stereo Power 100W x 2 (20HZ-20kHZ @ 6 ohm, 0.09% THD) sufficient to power these bad boy's?

In addition, I was wondering how to set these speakers with my current set-up, specifically my PSW-404 since they are close in Lower -3dB Limit??? I also have the PSW-10 which came with the 12's (I dont think I should open the box).

Most of the time I use this system for stereo. I am a newby and alot of this is foreign to me so any help would be appreciated.

AsSiMiLaTeD

There's not a receiver that I know under a couple grand that can do those speakers justice.

Take a look at getting a separate amp, you'll hear a big difference if you get a quality amp...

Mazeroth

Give them 300-500 watts RMS and you'll be listening to a whole different speaker. Those do say 8 ohm, but the RTi12s are really a 4 ohm speaker.

Check into pro amps for the best bang for your buck. Check out this 1400+ post thread I started that's still going strong on pro amps, namely the Crown XLS series.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=418666&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

AsSiMiLaTeD

IMO pro amps aren't known for high fidelity sound. You may find an amp that works well, and a pro amp would likely suffice to power the lows, but I doubt you'll get the best performance in the upper range with one...

That's just based on what I've personally listened to, no to say that there aren't good pro amps out there...I've not heard that particular Crown...

Mazeroth

Polkmaniac, take a few minutes and read through some of that post. No one can discern a differnece, not even against multi-thousand dollar Halos and Krells.

I'm not going to start a war here, but we also did a double blind test at the Dayton DiY speaker builders conference this past October. They did double blind tests with cheapo car amps versus the big boys and it was a dead 50/50 result. Same result when they compared the $$$ Kimber cable agaist phone cord!

AsSiMiLaTeD

To each his own I guess...

I'm not a proponent of spending thousands of dollars on an amp, mainly becuase I can't afford it. But I've listened to several of these types of amps, and none even compare to my Parasound...

Again, I think they work well for driving the lows, but not on the mids and highs...

I say, hey if you can spend a couple hundred bucks on an amp and not hear a difference, then why spend the extra cash if you're happy...

Mazeroth

What kinds of pro amps did you listen to?

bigsexy1

As someone already said, when they are hit with enough power, they turn into a whole other speaker with thunderous bass. I'd rec. at least 200 watts minimum, and 300 would be even better.

AsSiMiLaTeD

several Crown XL series, the 202 and 602 I think...a BGW, don't remember which one...couple others, don't remember though...

What I hear when listening 10 feet away is what peole usually report they hear when they listen from just a few inches and have the volume up too much on the amp (what you reported hearing in your initial post). If you're only hearing that from a few inches away, then it's not a big deal and it doesn't matter in the ends result.

I don't know if it's just my ears or what, but I've heard different types of distortial in every one I've listened to...

Early B.

Maz -- I know you don't want to start a war here, but it's important to set the record straight about the differences in amps.

I've owned several amps in the past year -- Outlaw, Rotel, Parasound (2), Harman Kardon, and Odyssey. I can tell you most definitively that each of these amps sound distinctly different, some being better than others. I've tried them all on HT and 2-channel audio. Of course I hear the biggest distinctions between amps on the 2-channel system, and less on the HT system. I recently replaced a Parasound 1200 amp with the Odyssey on my HT fronts, and there was a very clear difference between the two.

I've never tried a pro amp, but my guess is that they're OK for an entry level HT system, but you couldn't put them in the same league with amps designed exclusively for home audio performance. All amps aren't the same any more than all CD players are the same. Generally, higher quality parts equals higher quality sound.

captainmoop

Thanks for the quick response......By the sound (or lack of sound) of it I will be shopping for an amplifier.

In the mean time, what would the best set-up be with my current components regarding the 12's and my 404?

Mazeroth

I agree with what you guys are saying and should change what I posted earlier when I said people couldn't discern a difference. They could, but....

The tests were double blind. All the listener was asked was if they preferred the sound from amp A or amp B. 50% said the high-dollar Krell and 50% said the Pyramid 12-volt car amplifier. If you've auditioned 5 amplifiers and the Outlaw sounded the best to you, then by all means get it because it does sound better to you and that's all that matters. What this also means is I could come into your house with a cheap $50 car amp, double blind test you and you may prefer the car amp to the one you love. I'd probably say it was a new $1000 amp though, just to keep things fair

AsSiMiLaTeD

Well, with the right power, I'd use the 12s and the 404 to do the lows, but with your current setup...

I'd set the 12s to small in the receivers menu, and set LFE to yes and use the 404 to handle all the lows. This way, you're allocating more power to the mids and highs of the 12s and should get a cleaner sound. If you have the 12s set to large only using the receiver for power, then the low end is going to be sucking up all the power, and you'll sacrifice the high end detail...

You can always try it both ways and see which you like the best.

Ultimately, I'd get an SVS sub and replace the 404, but that's a down the road thing. Right now, just be happy with what you have and enjoy!

Early B.

The tests were double blind. All the listener was asked was if they preferred the sound from amp A or amp B. 50% said the high-dollar Krell and 50% said the Pyramid 12-volt car amplifier.

I hear ya, Maz -- in the final analysis it all comes down to individual preferences. But the participants in the test you reference couldn't have been audio enthusiasts. A couple of years ago I may have preferred the car amp as well because I was accustomed to listening to boombox quality sound all of my life. Once you cross the line, there's no going back.

Mazeroth

Originally posted by Early B.
I hear ya, Maz -- in the final analysis it all comes down to individual preferences. But the participants in the test you reference couldn't have been audio enthusiasts. A couple of years ago I may have preferred the car amp as well because I was accustomed to listening to boombox quality sound all of my life. Once you cross the line, there's no going back.

Early,

Every participant in the test was there for the DiY speaker meet, hosted by Parts Express in Dayton, Ohio. I'd say 80% of the people that showed up brought speakers that they built and are extremely knowledgable in the field. They also held a crossover test where they used the cheapest crossover parts they could get and compared it to a crossover that used Solen caps and some other $$$ parts. I think the one crossover cost $5 to build and the other one was over $100. This one resulted in the cheaper one sounding better to the participants, with a 53/47 margin, if I remember correctly.

Early B.

The only thing I can say is that those test results conflict with my own personal experience, the experiences of most veteran Polk forum members, and the experiences of nearly all other audio enthusiasts who have ever upgraded their amps and realized a benefit in doing so. Those results are also inconsistent with the generally accepted notion that better built products typically correspond to higher quality. So be it.

Mike Reeter

Captain,I picked up a used Adcom 5503 (3x200) to power the 12's and our CSi5 center,I still can't get over the difference adding an external amp made in the sound quailty of the front three...especially the 12's...really "opened them up"

keith allen

AAAAA,for the money,get ya a carver,lets say a tfm45 of the bay...pretty reasonable should have enough power.

marker

So what is the general consensus on the best amp for these speakers for the least money? I know they need a ton of power, but I just can't see investing a whole lot of money in an amp far better for them than you really need in comparision to the quality of the speaker itself.

Maybe a pro amp is the way to go when you really think about it, the most for the least.

LuSh

Mazeroth: While I agree the double blind test probably had those results. I disagree that amp's dont have sonic differences. Where the amp's put through a switcher? And what pre-amp was being used? How about the source player? What was it?

If a Krell preamp was being used, then i SERIOUSLY DOUBT those tests were accurate. Because a Krell preamp can discern between garbage, and what is not garbage. And because the preamp is closer to the source, and thus more important I'd be very surpised to hear if it was anything good.

Tests like these never made any sense to me, unless the overall system was high enough to allow the better equipment to shine. I can make a set of $100, 000 Kharma speakers sound like **** pretty quick by surronding them with utter junk.

As for the cables. Anybody that uses and compares cables in a 1 hour listening session is quite frankly insane. Audio memory is long term, not short. I heard differences in cables sometimes quickly, sometimes over a longer period ( a week) the point is the differences are there. Just like they are with sources, preamps and amps.

On a side note, I could also quickly hide any advantages of a $20k Linn CD12 player. I'd have alot of people convinced that a $100 Best Buy player "sounded the same" and could prove it with double blind tests.

ps, not to flame but the AVS forum is not a place I'd ever use to gather information on high quality reproduction 2 channel music. If you posted on audiogon.com and asked if their was a difference. I'm sure the conclusions would be different.

dorokusai

It's just the semi-annual double blind, no difference demo. It obviously happened, and opinions were stated, but it doesn't hold any weight for me personally.

The same "1400+" posts can be found on AA and have the complete opposite opinion on high end v.s low end....who cares.

It's up to the individual, and if an individual likes a cheap crossover, speaker or front end....then rock on Radioshack-o-phile!

Mike Reeter

Marker,There are a TON of used amps on e-bay/audiogon...I opted for an Adcom,yes,it is an "entry level" amp...but priced within my reach...the 5503 is a 3-channel...

I took this route just to see if there would be "that" much improvement in overall performance of our front three...knowing that if I wasn't happy with the amp,I could always resell...but, there was a very noticable difference in sound quality...

Just give an extra amp a test drive and you'll "hear" what I mean.

McLoki

Originally posted by marker
So what is the general consensus on the best amp for these speakers for the least money? I know they need a ton of power, but I just can't see investing a whole lot of money in an amp far better for them than you really need in comparision to the quality of the speaker itself.

Cheapest for the best is always going to be used. As far as what is best, do some research on what others who have your speakers are using and what they like about them. Also if you see a good deal on an amp off of e-bay or Audiogon (the two places I can recommend using other than the polk forum...), look for some reviews of the amp to see what others thought of it.

Assume that most amps will have glowing reviews and pay the most attention to the ones from people who thought they were ok or not so great. What didn't they like about them and does that problem apply to your situation?

I tend to think of an amp as a longer term purchase. Don't worry about getting a better amp than your speakers, cuz when you upgrade speakers at some point, who wants to worry about whether their amp is good enough for them or not.

Just pick your budget ($300, $500, $1500 - whatever) and start looking. Don't jump at the first amp that comes along at that price. Do your research and buy the best one you can for your budget. It may take awhile, but you can get some really good deals if you are willing to wait for them. (it took about a month to find my cinepro - $525 shipped - I thought I got a great deal and am very happy with the purchase. Others may think I got ripped, but it was my money so my opinion counts most... )

Start looking and ask questions if you are not sure about a brand or model.......

Good luck,

Michael

Mazeroth

All I'm trying to say:

You can't get better sound and POWER, IN MY OPINION, for the money than with a Crown XLS series amp, or a comparable pro amp from QSC etc.

Amps do sound different. The sound is personal preference. I was on a budget when I bought my amp and got it new for $219.99 shipped off Ebay. I hooked it up to my HK AVR230 and the difference it made to my Polk LSi15s was unreal. I was not about to go out and try a $1000 amp because the performance I got with just $219.99 was sick. When I had the LSi15s hooked up to just my HK AVR230 for a few months they were the best sounding speakers I had ever witnessed (ignorance is bliss). When I hooked the amp up to them they just sounded that much better.

Yes, the pre/pro makes a HUGE difference. If I remember correctly they were using a Parasound processor on the double blind.

Gah, you guys know what I'm trying to say. If I wasn't in college, had a good job and more income I'd probably buy the same kinds of amps you guys do. But FOR THE MONEY, and needing 300-500w RMS like the RTi150s do (which is RARE in a speaker), I don't think anything else could touch a pro amp.

Mazeroth

I made a suggestion and people started bashing it. Reread what was posted up top. I was just trying to defend what I said.

Anywho, I like everyone on this board and will leave what I posted at that. Good luck guys and enjoy whatcha got!

LuSh

Maz - wasn't bashing just trying to show you how easliy it is too take something that looks perfectly objective and turn it into something you want it too.

Zero - While I respect your input, I have no idea how an amp can influence the sound of speaker more then a preamp. Considering the preamp has alot to do with how accurate the amp sounds.

dorokusai

Mazeroth - No bashing here either but it's not the first time this double blind "experiment" has been done....just pointing that out.

It's not about what we own, it's about what we hear.

Happy listening.

option911

I have new pair of RTI 12s which I will be using with a pair of bridged Rotel RB970BX amps through a RC970BX Pre amp. How will this perform? I know I will still be a bit underpowered. Has anyone else used this set up?
Many thanks. Xie Xie

treitz3

Captainmoop, I would not recommend a pro amp for home situations. They may sound better to some who are just seeking loudness, which is what they were designed to do and for the most part do well. Loudness has nothing to do with sonic accuracy or quality.

That said, 300 watts of good, clean and accurate amplification will work wonders for those speakers. I wouldn't rule out tube amps either. Is there a budget or a particular amplifier you had in mind?