RTA8T's and rock music.....

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dohcmark8
dohcmark8 Posts: 229
edited November 2004 in Vintage Speakers
Ok here is my dilemma: I have a pair of mint RTA-8T's which sound great on jazz, acoustic and vocal music. But however my main genre is rock and these speakers just dont deliver the same kind of performance they do on rock as they do on other types of music.

Now, I am thinking about getting the RD0194-1 replacement tweeter to fix the problem, does anyone know if they are any good for rock?

Anyone here who listens to rock who replaced the SL2000 silver dome with the RD0194-1 care to express their thoughts as to if the RD0194-1 made rock sound better? Are these speakers any good for rock?

Thanks. :)
Post edited by dohcmark8 on
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  • nadams
    nadams Posts: 5,877
    edited November 2004
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    That would probably depend on what you feel is missing from your rock music. If it's punchiness, then the tweeter obviously won't do much good. I'm guessing that since you already decided it's the tweeter, there's something missing in the clarity. I don't know the technical differences between the tweeters, but someone should be able to answer that question.
    Ludicrous gibs!
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,805
    edited November 2004
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    Depends on what you think is missing and what kinda gear you're running with the Polk's. What ya got?
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,576
    edited November 2004
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    I think it's time to step up into a more capable speaker if that's your main genre.

    The RD-0194 isn't going to do anything but smooth out the response of the currently loaded SL2000. I seriously doubt that the overall improvement from that tweeter, which is alot IMO, is what you are looking for.

    Start shopping.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • dohcmark8
    dohcmark8 Posts: 229
    edited November 2004
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    I'm running a Onkyo TX-8511 amp. My sources are a computer with a Terratec FireDMX sound card and a Onkyo DXC-390 cd player.

    I honestly don't want new speakers. I feel the bass is lacking, so I'm thinking about trying out a sub to see if it helps.

    Actually nadams, I think your right, I'm lacking bass here.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,805
    edited November 2004
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    You mean receiver and that is part of your problem. Receivers don't have the balls to drive speakers to their full potental. If your receiver has pre outs then look into adding a separate amp, if not then look into buying separates. All watts are not created equal, but more important than that is the current and receivers just don't have high current ability.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • dohcmark8
    dohcmark8 Posts: 229
    edited November 2004
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    Originally posted by F1nut
    You mean receiver and that is part of your problem. Receivers don't have the balls to drive speakers to their full potental. If your receiver has pre outs then look into adding a separate amp, if not then look into buying separates. All watts are not created equal, but more important than that is the current and receivers just don't have high current ability.

    Here's my problem: I love the way these speakers sound with rock music with the receivers "loudness" setting turned on. I don't think its the treble. Anyway, do you think it would be worthwhile for me to try a seperate sub like a PWS-202, I have a pretty small room. I really dont want to buy a new receiver, I will look into pre-amp options if the sub thing dont work out.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,805
    edited November 2004
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    You're not understanding what I saying. Your receiver, any receiver doesn't have what it takes to truly drive a pair of speakers to their full potental. IMO and that of many others, using the loudness button is a big no-no, it falsely pumps up the treble and bass. Gear should be run flat, no tone controls.

    Again, if your receiver has pre outs you can hook up a separate power amp and use the receiver as the pre amp. If you're not getting any of this, do you have a local hifi shop, not BB, CC or even Tweeter, but a real hifi shop close to you? If so, go there and talk with them about this, they can show you what I'm talking about. You can even take your speakers there and have them hooked up to some separates, it'll be a ear opening experience.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • dohcmark8
    dohcmark8 Posts: 229
    edited November 2004
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    So I think I got this down:

    Tomorrow I will head down to CC and pick-up a sub and I have a friend with a NAD pre-amp that he will bring over so I can see whats up.

    I am understanding what you are saying, I now realize that all I need is more bass so a sub will do. I was using loudness to compensate for bass, I'll try out the sub and it should fix my problem.

    Do you think it's a good idea? Just getting a new sub and leaving my current equipment intact since I'm happy with most of it?
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,050
    edited November 2004
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    The loudness button does not only amplify the bass...

    The loudness button is design to amplify certain frequencies of movies so you can watch them at night at a low volume and still hear it...

    It usually amplifies midrange frequencies mostly...
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • nadams
    nadams Posts: 5,877
    edited November 2004
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    First of all, I ran two pair of speakers off of a JVC receiver and saw no noticible advantage running those same speakers off of separates. Now, I did notice a big difference trying to run my Monitor 10's off of these same two setups.

    dohcmark- I think you're running too fast here. Running flat is not for every setup. There are a lot of "purists" here who would want you to set treble and bass to 0, and forget about loudness. It may just be because I'm young and inexperienced, but I say that if the settings make the speakers sound good, then they're good.

    I guess it's the job of the other guys here to convince you otherwise. But at least we know what you're missing, now.
    Ludicrous gibs!
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  • dohcmark8
    dohcmark8 Posts: 229
    edited November 2004
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    Originally posted by nadams
    First of all, I ran two pair of speakers off of a JVC receiver and saw no noticible advantage running those same speakers off of separates. Now, I did notice a big difference trying to run my Monitor 10's off of these same two setups.

    dohcmark- I think you're running too fast here. Running flat is not for every setup. There are a lot of "purists" here who would want you to set treble and bass to 0, and forget about loudness. It may just be because I'm young and inexperienced, but I say that if the settings make the speakers sound good, then they're good.

    I guess it's the job of the other guys here to convince you otherwise. But at least we know what you're missing, now.

    Thanks.

    Your post was the one that made me think what was missing, I guess all I need is a sub.
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  • cfrizz
    cfrizz Posts: 13,415
    edited November 2004
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    Hi dohcmark8.

    I have the same speakers and I can tell you from experience that my receiver wasn't able to give me all of the performance that my speakers could give me. When I added the Parasound amp, they sounded like totally different speakers The bass increased noticebly as did the clarity all the way around.

    Get a separate amplifier that can feed these speakers as close to the 250 watts of power they can handle and watch these speakers shine.

    I would also get a sub as well since you like rock music the extra bass from a sub should make you very happy.
    Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2
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  • nadams
    nadams Posts: 5,877
    edited November 2004
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    As other people have posted here, you may just be better off getting a better pair of speakers. Subs are not often used in true 2 channel systems. I love my monitor 10's, and they have all the bass I need to listen to rock, without a separate sub.

    Don't run out and buy something you're not going to be happy with. Wait a little bit for some more of the educated replies found earlier in the thread.
    Ludicrous gibs!
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,576
    edited November 2004
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    Starting to shop could certainly include a subwoofer...the point was that you need something else, and the tweeter isn't your fix.

    I don't recall you mentioning a bass issue specifically until hinted later in the thread.

    Do you want bass? Is that the issue?

    Do you want to spend the least amount of money?

    You can pick up a PSW-202 for <$100, and it would certainly provide bass for you above and beyond the RTA8T. It's no home wrecker, but it's cheap. PolkThug has a much more capable sub available in the flea market right now.

    You seem as tho' replacing gear isn't an objective, so go with that mindset....blah blah amp....blah blah pre-amp, you won't often get simple solutions from here.

    Pick up a cheap sub if that's what you want and find out for yourself.

    The receiver statement by F1 is a generalized one, but to get an AVR that is capable means spending much more than it's really worth for your application.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • dohcmark8
    dohcmark8 Posts: 229
    edited November 2004
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    Originally posted by dorokusai
    Starting to shop could certainly include a subwoofer...the point was that you need something else, and the tweeter isn't your fix.

    I don't recall you mentioning a bass issue specifically until hinted later in the thread.

    Do you want bass? Is that the issue?

    Do you want to spend the least amount of money?

    You can pick up a PSW-202 for <$100, and it would certainly provide bass for you above and beyond the RTA8T. It's no home wrecker, but it's cheap. PolkThug has a much more capable sub available in the flea market right now.

    You seem as tho' replacing gear isn't an objective, so go with that mindset....blah blah amp....blah blah pre-amp, you won't often get simple solutions from here.

    Pick up a cheap sub if that's what you want and find out for yourself.

    The receiver statement by F1 is a generalized one, but to get an AVR that is capable means spending much more than it's really worth for your application.

    I'm not looking to spend more than $100, I do have bills to pay. Where can I find a decent sub for <$100.

    Thanks.
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,576
    edited November 2004
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    Ebay.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • nadams
    nadams Posts: 5,877
    edited November 2004
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    You know what? I have an old 10" sub that I'm going to mess around with and see if it makes my 5jr's sound any better. I'm not really looking to unload this sub (sorry...) because it weighs so much. It would cost a lot to ship.

    Just so you know, it's an old sub from a DCM speaker system that I picked up for free from a friend who had gotten it from a friend. They had no use for it, so I picked it up and it sounds great within reasonable volumes. Just keep your eye out for something local and see what you can find.

    Shipping on pretty much any sub is going to add ~$25 to the total.
    Ludicrous gibs!
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  • dohcmark8
    dohcmark8 Posts: 229
    edited November 2004
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    Originally posted by nadams
    You know what? I have an old 10" sub that I'm going to mess around with and see if it makes my 5jr's sound any better. I'm not really looking to unload this sub (sorry...) because it weighs so much. It would cost a lot to ship.

    Just so you know, it's an old sub from a DCM speaker system that I picked up for free from a friend who had gotten it from a friend. They had no use for it, so I picked it up and it sounds great within reasonable volumes. Just keep your eye out for something local and see what you can find.

    Shipping on pretty much any sub is going to add ~$25 to the total.

    Thanks, let me know the results. I appreciate the help sincerely. :D
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,805
    edited November 2004
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    Originally posted by dohcmark8
    I have a friend with a NAD pre-amp that he will bring over so I can see whats up.

    You can't connect your friends pre amp to your receiver, so don't bother trying.

    It seems that more bass is what you're after, so the sub will get you that. Good luck.

    BTW Sid, it's treble and bass, not the mid range and who mentioned anything about movies?
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • dohcmark8
    dohcmark8 Posts: 229
    edited November 2004
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    Originally posted by F1nut
    You can't connect your friends pre amp to your receiver, so don't bother trying.

    It seems that more bass is what you're after, so the sub will get you that. Good luck.

    BTW Sid, it's treble and bass, not the mid range and who mentioned anything about movies?

    I know that, he's bringing his receiver too.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,805
    edited November 2004
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    OK, look we need to get a few things clear.......is your friend bringing a receiver or a pre amp or a amp???
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Tour2ma
    Tour2ma Posts: 10,177
    edited November 2004
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    One tidbit that's missing from the loudness contour discussion, is that in most integrateds and receivers it "rolls out" with increasing volume, i.e., the frequency boost is only there at low volumes. By the time you get to "rock" listening levels it's gone.

    One other thing I did not see mentioned is speaker placement. There are places that improve and hurt bass response. Double-edged sword, though... if moving them gets you the rock bass you want, the jazz may not sound as good.

    dohcmark8,
    Can't remember ever seeing the RTA8T's. If you have a digi-cam at your disposal, I'd appreciate a pic or two...
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
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  • dohcmark8
    dohcmark8 Posts: 229
    edited November 2004
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    Originally posted by F1nut
    OK, look we need to get a few things clear.......is your friend bringing a receiver or a pre amp or a amp???

    An amp and a preamp. Sorry I keep confusing reciever with amp. If a receiver has pre-out+main in can't you use a preamp with it?

    Anyway, I'll be picking up a sub tomorrow to see if it helps.

    Thanks for the help guys. ;)

    Sorry, I don't have a digi cam. But here is a thread with some pics: http://clubpolk.polkaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22220&highlight=rta8t (Mine are black though)
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,805
    edited November 2004
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    Originally posted by dohcmark8
    An amp and a preamp. Sorry I keep confusing reciever with amp. If a receiver has pre-out+main in can't you use a preamp with it?


    Ok, now we're on the same page. Post your thoughts after you get your listen on, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.


    No and no point either, but you can connect an amp to a receiver like that.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • nadams
    nadams Posts: 5,877
    edited November 2004
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    However, if your receiver has pre outs, then you don't need a preamp, the receiver can handle that duty. I haven't gotten much listen time in with this sub as it was too late last night, but I'm getting everything warmed up now :-).
    Ludicrous gibs!
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  • Tour2ma
    Tour2ma Posts: 10,177
    edited November 2004
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    Originally posted by dohcmark8
    Sorry, I don't have a digi cam. But here is a thread with some pics: http://clubpolk.polkaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22220&highlight=rta8t (Mine are black though)
    Thanks... and I even posted in that thread... :rolleyes:

    (walks away muttering to self, "Why am I muttering to myself?)
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
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  • dohcmark8
    dohcmark8 Posts: 229
    edited November 2004
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    Originally posted by nadams
    However, if your receiver has pre outs, then you don't need a preamp, the receiver can handle that duty. I haven't gotten much listen time in with this sub as it was too late last night, but I'm getting everything warmed up now :-).

    What good are the pre-outs then? What do you mean the receiver can handle it?
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  • nadams
    nadams Posts: 5,877
    edited November 2004
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    Sorry. If the receiver that you have has Pre-outs, then you can hook an amp straight up to it using them. The volume control will be through the receiver, but that's it. The receiver will not directly power the speakers anymore, the amp will.

    I'm just saying that if you have the preamp-outs on your receiver then you do not need a preamp, you just need an amp.
    Ludicrous gibs!
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  • dohcmark8
    dohcmark8 Posts: 229
    edited November 2004
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    Thanks.

    Anyway, I got my friend over today with his NAD amp and pre-amp. I had bough a PWS-202 sub from CC and was all ready too test.

    1. The NAD setup: What can I say, I noticed more bass and a overall increase in clarity at higher volumes, I liked the flat sound.

    2. The PWS-202: Hmmm... I liked the way this sub sounded with my TX-8511, It didnt over bloat or ruin the music.

    Conclusion: I went with the sub for now atleast. ;)
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,576
    edited November 2004
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    There you go, have fun. Worry about the crazy stuff later.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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