need help. Onkyo TX-SR601 ?'s

gmorris

Just when I thought I had it all figured out, I found something on my reciever that I can't explain.

I have the Onkyo TX-SR601.

My question is in regards to listening to CD's in the STEREO mode. In the Speaker Configuration (bass management) menu, I have Subwoofer set to "YES" and Front L&R set to "LARGE". The crossover frequency is set to 60 Hz.

The above description should mean: Front L&R speakers are receiving a full range signal, with the Subwoofer receiving a low pass signal from 60 Hz and down. Correct? This all makes sense to me.

Now, my confusion. With these particular Speaker Configuration settings, an option under the audio adjust menu becomes available, called Double Bass.

Here is the description from the manual:
"Double Bass
The Double Bass function boosts the bass sound by letting the bass sound of “Front L/R” speakers output also from the subwoofer. To enable this function, in the “Speaker Config” menu, set the “Subwoofer” to “Yes” and “FrontL/R” to “Large.”
The Double Bass function is effective especially when the input is
monaural, 2-channel or PCM 96kHz signal.

On: Select to turn on the Double Bass function.
Off: Select to turn off the Double Bass function."

Does this make any sense to anyone? It makes no sense to me. My question is, if the Double Bass is set to off, what the hell is being sent to the subwoofer?

PolkThug

Interesting... As much as I play with these things I've never noticed the "double bass" setting. I'll check it out tomorrow.

Regards,
PolkThug

Pauly

what sub do you have and how do you have it hooked up? The polk way or via lfe or (l/r) on the sub?

gmorris

I have my homemade subwoofer.

It is hooked up with the Subwoofer Out on the back of the receiver (single RCA cable) to the L&R inputs (Y adapter) on the sub amp. The sub amp crossover has been defeated.

On an angrier note, I called Onkyo tech support to ask about this. The girl that answered my call could do no more than read directly from the manual. She could not explain ****. Shame on Onkyo for having **** customer support.

Pauly

thats a doozie

gmorris

Here is my first theory:

With the Front L&R set to large, they are receiving a full range signal. In the case of Double Bass being OFF, the sub woofer is not receiving any signal, even though the Subwoofer is set to YES in the Speaker Config. menu. Turning Double Bass to ON will now send the low pass signal (dictated by the X-over freq.) to the subout.

According to the manuals explanation of Double Bass, this sounds feasible. But, it flys in the face of common Bass Management rules. The other reason I think this theory is flawed is on the Onkyo, there is also a mode called DIRECT, which defeats the tone adjustments (bass & treble) and turns the subwoofer output off, regardless of its settting in the Speaker Config. menu.

This is a pickle. I do not think my theory is at all correct, just thinking out loud, if you will.

Pauly

wait i thought if you set your fronts to lrg it will play at full range and bypass the X over (yours being 60), thus if you set fronts to small it would then in turn send 60 and below to the sub. Correct?

gmorris

Originally posted by spasticpitbull
wait i thought if you set your fronts to lrg it will play at full range and bypass the X over (yours being 60), thus if you set fronts to small it would then in turn send 60 and below to the sub. Correct?

Yes. But, if the Front L&R is set to large & the sub is ON, what gets sent to the sub? It should be a lowpass signal, determined by the X-over.

This is exactly why I do not understand what the hell Double Bass is doing.

PolkThug

not my words:

Onkyo also has a feature that allows bass output to both the subwoofer and main speakers, though it does not appear on this setup screen. It is accessed through the Audio Adjust menu (though in my opinion it would have probably made more sense to incorporate it in the speaker setup area). In order for the “Double Bass” setting to function properly, you must set your Front L/R speakers to “Large”. Now a really neat feature: You can still choose whether or not you would like to have subwoofer output when playing stereo music through the use of the remote control. Selecting “STEREO” on the remote sends low frequency output to the subwoofer, while “DIRECT” bypasses all DSP and routes audio to the main channels for purer quality signal transfer from analogue sources. There is no subwoofer output in “DIRECT” mode.

One thing to pay attention do when using the “Double Bass” setting is that when the Onkyo TX-SR601 is engaged in any of its multi-channel modes, the low frequency information from the Front L/R is sent to the subwoofer, even if the mains are set to “Large” yielding a net increase of subwoofer output of up to 6dB. Most of the multi-channel software I own is in the form of movies, so having the additional bass during these times is generally acceptable with my particular system and room.

gmorris

Where did you find that? Was it at audioholics.com?

gmorris

Well gentlemen, I have figured it out.

I called Onkyo tech support for a 3'rd time. This dumbass actually told me the Double Bass setting was a bass boost function. So I asked him at what frequency & by how many Db's the bass was boosted. He of course did not now.

So I went home last night and began testing for myself. Here is what happened.

First off, the Bass Management settings were as follows: Subwoofer=On, Front L&R=LARGE, Crossover=60 Hz.

When Double Bass is OFF, THERE IS NO OUTPUT TO THE SUBWOOFER! Even though the Subwoofer=On in the Bass Management menu, Double Bass overrides the setting.

Turning Double Bass ON simply turns the subwoofer output on, leaving the full range signal to the Front L&R intact. The only reason I can figure for this is so you still have the ability to use the tone controls.

Swithching to the DIRECT mode defeats the tone controls (and any DSP mode) AND turns off the sub out.

So, I've learned two things. 1) Onkyo tech support SUCKS! 2) There are two ways to turn off the subwoofer. Doubel Bass is NOT a bass boost circuit.

Later,
Greg

climber07

I'm having the same frustration with my TX-NR3009.

With multi-channel sources (e.g. 2.1, 5.1, 7.1) with an LFE channel, there is no problem with having the mains set to full range as the LFE is sent directly to the subwoofer and the LPF is in effect.

With stereo and mono sources, however, the subwoofer doesn't receive any signal when the mains are set to full range (unless double bass is selected). This is problematic as I have full range speakers (RTiA9s) that hit hard down to around 30 Hz. Setting the crossover for the mains to its lowest setting (40Hz) only allows <40Hz to be sent to the subwoofer. Most music doesn't dig that deep unless bass boosted, therefore, foregoing the subwoofer in all practical aspects.

Using the subwoofer and mains for stereo sources requires the use of the double bass setting. When switching to a movie, the double bass is too much and needs to be turned off. I wish there was a way to enable double bass for stereo sources only. I can't find any settings anywhere that will allow this without constantly going into the setup and changing this when going from one source to another...

tonyb

Not familiar with the menu options on the 3009, but is there a way to set audio when setting up the individual inputs ? Or music modes ?

Though if your music doesn't hit below 40 hz anyway, why do you even need the subwoofer in the double bass option then ?

climber07

Long story short, I went to Radio Shack and got a sound meter and spent three hours testing and adjusting settings. Phase (each speaker) crossovers, double bass, you name it. I tested it all in numerous positions and when it was all said and done... I had the best response in both movies and music with the subs and mains crossed over at 80 Hz. Even though the RTiA9s can hit down to 30 Hz pretty hard, they were cancelling out the subs, regardless of phase or position (in the front of the room). After all of my trials, setting the subs and mains to 80 Hz gives me a lot more bass and a smoother response.

climber07

Heres' a response from Tom V at PSA subs when asked about running towers at full range with a subwoofer and experiencing cancellation..

"Yes, that is quite possible. There are various reasons for this but the primary cause is the subwoofer and the main speakers will have dramatically different "deep bass rolloff" graphs.(if you look at the FR graph for each). This causes large differences in the "phase shift" of each speaker/sub. In other words, the speakers and the subwoofer will become :out of phase" with one another causing cancellations.

Keep all speakers set to 80hz.."

Tom Vodhanel"

cnh

You guys are really complicating things. Double Bass simply runs both the L/R and the sub down to the same frequencies if the L/R are set to FULL RANGE with no crossover point).

On the HIGHER LEVEL Onkyos. You SIMPLY select PURE AUDIO for music. This SHUTS OFF THE BASS (the Subwoofer, that is) and ALL EQUALIZATION and gives you FULL RANGE to the L/R for music.

Why you'd want to do all the other things listed above is beyond me.

On lower level Onkyos, maybe 7XX and below? Choosing the stereo option usually engages the SUB along with the L/R. What else is it that you need to do? I have an 805 and I have the Crossover set to 60hz on the fronts. The SUB is ALWAYS ON when in the STEREO mode and in the HT mode. It's OFF in the PURE AUDIO mode.

Two channel music: Pure Audio. Stereo and HT surround Sub+. Double bass allows the sub to play frequencies that might overlap with the L/R mains in two channel--which may get a little loose and sloppy.

cnh