I think it's time to go NAS

AsSiMiLaTeD

Anybody out there running a NAS device at home? I have a bunch of drives sorta scattered around that I'm using to stream stuff, I've been able to make it work for us so far but it's less than ideal. I think I'd like to go to a full NAS setup here, wondering what issues I may encounter along the way.

My requirements are pretty simple:

1 - I need to be able to store and back up 6TB of data, so I need a solution that can handle 12TB. I assume this means a 4 bay model.
2 - If I understand this correctly, I'd like to be able to plug this thing into my router and have all the devices on my network see it.
3 - I need to be able to write to and read from the drives from both Windows and Mac.

That's about all I know so far. I'm reading that these things have operating systems, multiple network jacks, etc so that makes things more complicated than I'd like and I'm only half wanting to go down this route because of that. If I get one of these set up, are the drives just gonna pop up somewhere or do I need to map them.

I've been looking at the Synology 412+, but again it looks complicated. How am I supposed to even access the OS on this thing, does it hook up to a monitor like the Cisco switches, or is it different? Is there another model that I should be looking at?

I know networking, am CCNA certified for gods sake, but don't know squat about these devices.

Any help is appreciated.

dkg999

I have a QNAP 459 Pro II that I bought several years ago, loaded up with some really quiet Samsung Spinpoint drives. It still works great for what I need it to do.

ViperZ

To answer your questions...
- You will access your NAS via a web interface. Usually these interfaces are very user friendly. The closest example would be a PC desktop - a bunch of shortcuts to different software pieces.
- Attach NAS to your router, turn it on, then punch in NAS IP in your browser, and you're in - through any PC, Mac or any other device on your network..
- Choosing 4-bay NAS means that you can either run 4 drives in JBOD (just a bunch of discs - 4 discs linked and virtually looking like 1 big disc on network) OR 2 pairs of discs in RAID - i.e. two main discs and two discs that contain 'exact copy backup' the first two. Then there are multiple other RAID configurations, but this is the best one for RAID (RAID 1).
- Synology is the top brand on the market, but the price is a bit higher than others. Q-NAP is a good brand. I ran Thecus NAS personally.
- These NAS things are essentially a full-blown computer (CPU, DRAM, with Linux distribution on them - mostly Fedora). You never need to really access OS, but mine hasd full command prompt access via ssh shortcut.

Best NAS drives on the market nowadays are WD Red.

nooshinjohn

When I see NAS, I think of "Naval Air Station"... What is NAS?

polkfarmboy

Network attached Sto......ve ?

AsSiMiLaTeD

Thanks viper, couple follow up questions:

Once setup, do the drives show up in windows explorer like other drives, or how do you access them? I assume you map them somehow but not sure.

What's special about the WD Red drives vs just any other internal data drive?

maximillian

Got a Synology DS213j for Christmas and installed only one WD NAS 3TB drive in it for now. It was very simple to setup. As viper mentioned, there is a web interface that makes it seem like you are using a remote desktop. There is a live demo on their website:

http://www.synology.com/en-us/products/dsm_livedemo

This will give you a really good sense about how to use it. Setup of a drive is also through the web interface.

I have mine connected directly to the Wifi router. This is only a 5 port switch, but one of the ports has a 12 port switch connected to it. I have a couple Xbmc that connect to it via static IP (settable through the web interface). My WD Streaming TV connects to it this way too. It has DNLA and also I think an iTunes server, but I don't use these features since I simply use Samba.

Went with Synology since most everyone I spoke with and everywhere I read said they are simple, powerful, and flexible. Only issue I had was that I wish I could have mounted another NAS (my old one) using their webclient to make it easier to transfer files. There may be a way but I couldn't figure it out.

maximillian

To answer your last question... without a Windows server, one of your machines will store the Netbios name table. Then the NAS will show up in the Network icon in Windows explorer. You can then Map a Network drive letter if you wish or access the machine directly from the Network icon (does MS still call this Network Neighborhood?).

AsSiMiLaTeD

How important is the CPU choice in these? All I really need to be able to do is stream BluRau mkv files across the network

ViperZ

Maximillian pretty much answered your previous questions. I can see NAS drive auto-mapped by original software, but I also see all of its directories on the network, just like any other networked drives.

Regarding Red drives, my understanding is that hardware/firmware are optimized for NAS environment/the way drives are used.
Here is a decent comparison: http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/5790/nas-hdd-showdown-wd-red-vs-seagate-nas/index.html

CPU choice is VERY important if you're streaming AND decoding on NAS. For example, my NAS has installed Plex video server software, which lets me decode files right on NAS and then stream them to any DLNA enabled device on the network. On the other hand, my Oppo BDP-93 can decode all files anyway, so instead of pulling files from Plex, I just pull them from a 'regular' mapped directory and let Oppo decode my video files. So strain on the CPU/RAM inside NAS is much lower.

Of course, static IP is important for NAS, so you don't have to search for it every time you reboot it or reboot the router. My router has option to assign specific IP address to specific device, but yes, you can do it through built-in NAS control panel too.

ViperZ

Just dumped ~8GB over gigabit network from my PC onto NAS - ~115MB/sec upload... At the same time started copying my super-old MP3 CDs (kept for nostalgic reasons, have everything on original CDs anyway), and speed was atrocious (like 160MB/min) as those CDs were recorded back in 1999-2000 - those were the fastest CDRs at that time - 8x speed!! Am I glad that those files are now on the network and I won't have to look for those CDs...

cnh

nooshinjohn wrote: »

When I see NAS, I think of "Naval Air Station"... What is NAS?

lol! I love the "age" of Acronyms! In my day if I used one, I would "immediately", spell everything out. But then again I'm in my 50s?

On the other hand how come none of us KNOWS NAS:

Nasir bin Olu Dara Jones, better known simply as Nas, is an American rapper, songwriter and actor. He is the son of jazz musician Olu Dara.

If I used NAS in this way, would it make me "cool"?

NETWORK-ATTACHED STORAGE! Now how "difficult" was that as a "courtesy"? Computer geeks, sheeesh, not ONE of them can write a set of instructions or a manual that ANYONE else but one of them can understand! How sad!

You know if this sector of tech. would just PAY good MONEY to some quality "wordsmiths" a lot of the computer problems people have would DISAPPEAR!

cnh

AsSiMiLaTeD

Yeah, I don't need any transcoding, just need the Oppo to be able to connect to and play the files directly off the NAS, just like it does currently with the attached USB drive.

ViperZ

nbrowser wrote: »

I personally built a Windows Home Server 2011 machine. 24TB of space, accessible to every system on the network, overkill, yep, functional ? Oh yes. But it takes some smarts to get it completely configured for maximum usefulness. Plenty of How-Tos on the interwebs.

There is a lot of debate on computer forums of full-blown home servers vs NAS. Personally, I don't need any extra functionality that a full-size server would provide vs. what my NAS does. Plus I don't want another 24/7 running PC in the house.

Assimilated, that's what my Oppo does too. Basically, any DLNA enabled device should be able to see the files on NAS drives over your network.

maximillian

I considered going the server route but wanted something low power consumption since it would be on all day. My Synology consumes around 20W when working, even lower when hibernating. I have an older desktop PC (small form factor) that consumes around 50W and I considered using it with a DAS, but I didn't find any external RAID storage that seemed to work reliably. I would imagine a higher spec'ed PC would consume even more. Second, although I like techie stuff, I have so much going on that something I don't want to bother with the technology and tweaking. The Synology software is very simple and I don't have to constantly be rebooting it to ensure the latest updates get installed.

DMara

AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »

I've been looking at the Synology 412+, but again it looks complicated. How am I supposed to even access the OS on this thing, does it hook up to a monitor like the Cisco switches, or is it different? Is there another model that I should be looking at?

I'm running 2 NAS at home: Synology DS 1511+ (five 3TB drives in a RAID5 => total storage: 11.7 TB) and QNAP TS-879 Pro (eight 4TB drives in a RAID6 => total storage: 21.7TB).
I like Synology better for their web interface and 3rd-party apps. The QNAP is a little bit more complicated in setting up. Synology NAS is extremely user-friendly, so you'll see that it's not complicated at all.
Also I suggest you to go with 5 bays or less because the +5-bay ones generate a lot more noise. And Synology NAS generally is quieter than most.
The DS 412+ you are looking at, like my 2 devices, has 2 LAN with Failover and Link Aggregation Support, which means you can run 2 CAT5e/CAT6 to a managed switch to improve download/upload speed. The switch got to be manage-able so that you can configure Link Aggregation. If you don't transfer data back and forth frequently, I don't think you need to worry about this option.

About your questions:

1 - I need to be able to store and back up 6TB of data, so I need a solution that can handle 12TB. I assume this means a 4 bay model.

I for one don't believe in using one NAS as a file server as well as a backup server. It's just too easy to crash. I'd rather run 2 NAS, one as a file server and the other as the backup server.
The RAID functions in those NAS is just another data loss prevention step, not a true backup plan. Keep in mind that the NAS can die anytime due to hard drive failures or NAS hardware failure itself.

2 - If I understand this correctly, I'd like to be able to plug this thing into my router and have all the devices on my network see it.

Yes if you only run 1 LAN, not the Link-Aggregated one like mentioned above.

3 - I need to be able to write to and read from the drives from both Windows and Mac.

This is supported by most of the NAS from Synology & QNAP & Netgear out there.

AsSiMiLaTeD

Good points DMara, I'd considered using a separate device for backup as you mentioned and think that is the way I wanna go. This means I only need a 2 bay NAS, as 8TB is more than enough storage for all my media.

I also don't think I need link aggregation and two ports. All I need to do is rip a BluRay to the drive, and then stream that mov file from the Oppo. Its not like I'm going to be dozens of these a week, once I get my initial collection transferred over it'll just be the one or two movies a month that I buy. I don't need any processing or transcoding. I also need it to be able to connect to iTunes so that it serves as the storage for all that.

So knowing all that, I've got a couple options I'm looking at. Will the 213j do what I need to do, or do I need to step up to the 214 or 214+?

ViperZ

Let me know when you'll be ripping blu-rays. I'll be doing the same thing soon, but I'm pretty scared about the idea of ripping 180+ discs, plus I haven't used any modern ripping software. Probably will be using DVDFab, as I'm most familiar with their older software.

begbie

I've got the Ds412+. It is easy to setup out of the box but offers tons of features for advanced users.

To be frank, the ds412+ is way more then I need. I was running out of space on an older nas (dlink 323) and got a good price with the 412+ which would mainly serve for movies and music. Though my needs changed as I cut the cord and signed up to Netflix and use Pandora.

I thought the Plex app would be a great feature but didn't like all the trans-coding issues I had.

Drives are expensive too as I still only have 1 3tb hd there. Need at least 2.

Overall it is a fantastic Nas that I'm still learning from but I probably really needed only the 2 bay drive from Synology.

DMara

AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »

So knowing all that, I've got a couple options I'm looking at. Will the 213j do what I need to do, or do I need to step up to the 214 or 214+?

The newer x14 version's main advantage is that it will enjoy the priority and better longevity of the manufacturer firmware support and the Synology community's app support. Other than that, I think the 213j will satisfy your demand easily.

AsSiMiLaTeD

ViperZ wrote: »

Let me know when you'll be ripping blu-rays. I'll be doing the same thing soon, but I'm pretty scared about the idea of ripping 180+ discs, plus I haven't used any modern ripping software. Probably will be using DVDFab, as I'm most familiar with their older software.

I actually already have quite a few BluRays ripped so I have that process down. Makemkv is really the way to go if you want the best quality and have a player that will play mkv files. It will bypass the copy protection like dvdfab and will produce a mkv file that's basically a 1:1 copy of the movie. The upside is that this process is fast and has perfect quality because there is no encoding going on, the downside is that the files are huge, I average probably 35gb per movie.

For me the upsides are worth it because hard drive space is cheap enough that I can always just add more when needed. If you don't care as much about the quality then a combination of dvdfab and handbrake would work well and still produce a reasonably good looking movie.

billbillw

AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »

I actually already have quite a few BluRays ripped so I have that process down. Makemkv is really the way to go if you want the best quality and have a player that will play mkv files. It will bypass the copy protection like dvdfab and will produce a mkv file that's basically a 1:1 copy of the movie. The upside is that this process is fast and has perfect quality because there is no encoding going on, the downside is that the files are huge, I average probably 35gb per movie.

For me the upsides are worth it because hard drive space is cheap enough that I can always just add more when needed. If you don't care as much about the quality then a combination of dvdfab and handbrake would work well and still produce a reasonably good looking movie.

You know, you can also use Handbrake on those MKV files. I do the same rip with MakeMKV, then Handbrake them using Normal Quality, slider set to 20, audio to DTS or AC3 Passthrough, and it gets me from 35GB down to under 8GB without a significant loss in quality.

The only problem is subtitles can be lost, especially the forced ones. There are ways to keep them, but its extra work.

Right now, I'm still getting by with a WDTV Live Hub which has an internal 1TB drive. It works very easy, my networked computers see it, my LG Blu-ray players see it and can stream from it and it has been dead reliable for the last 18-months. At some point, I know I will run out of space or the device will die. I will eventually be looking at NAS as well. When that happens, I will move my music, photos, and document files over as well.

maximillian

+1 on using the NAS as a general media server. I've been doing it for years and it's super convenient. The only issue is with photos. Multi-megabyte photos tend to take too long for general slide show viewing. And honestly, viewing them one by one is boring for visitors, so I don't generally do it. Still, would be nice to find some good hardware software to browse and view photos quickly and display on my TV.

Make sure to back up the NAS. RAID is only for driver failures; it's not a backup solution. That's another discussion.

ViperZ

billbillw wrote: »

You know, you can also use Handbrake on those MKV files. I do the same rip with MakeMKV, then Handbrake them using Normal Quality, slider set to 20, audio to DTS or AC3 Passthrough, and it gets me from 35GB down to under 8GB without a significant loss in quality.

The only problem is subtitles can be lost, especially the forced ones. There are ways to keep them, but its extra work.

Right now, I'm still getting by with a WDTV Live Hub which has an internal 1TB drive. It works very easy, my networked computers see it, my LG Blu-ray players see it and can stream from it and it has been dead reliable for the last 18-months. At some point, I know I will run out of space or the device will die. I will eventually be looking at NAS as well. When that happens, I will move my music, photos, and document files over as well.

Holy moly. I know that BluRay is 35GB, so I would need 7TB, it means 2x4TB in JBOD in my 2-bay NAS. That's too rich for me. I don't mind sacrificing a bit of video quality to go down to 8GB (dual-layer DVD), but I don't want to sacrifice the DTS HD-MA sound on the rips... Decisions decisions.

Maximillian, while I agree that RAID is for drive failures, isn't it what the backup is for? I will 'backup' some data from my main PC, so it's already a backup copy on my NAS, and technically if I go RAID 1, it means I will have 3 copies of the same information at any given time.

maximillian

RAID is for fault tolerance in the event a drive fails but it isn't a complete backup solution. It doesn't:
- prevent accidental user deletion.
- Physical failure of the entire unit (house fire, theft, tornado takes the NAS to the next state).
- and it doesn't archive (which is important for some).

So a second physical backup is preferred. Off-site if possible but you must gauge importance of data (and losing it) vs. cost and convenience.

billbillw

ViperZ wrote: »

Holy moly. I know that BluRay is 35GB, so I would need 7TB, it means 2x4TB in JBOD in my 2-bay NAS. That's too rich for me. I don't mind sacrificing a bit of video quality to go down to 8GB (dual-layer DVD), but I don't want to sacrifice the DTS HD-MA sound on the rips... Decisions decisions.

Maximillian, while I agree that RAID is for drive failures, isn't it what the backup is for? I will 'backup' some data from my main PC, so it's already a backup copy on my NAS, and technically if I go RAID 1, it means I will have 3 copies of the same information at any given time.

For me, its not a big issue because my main streaming device (the WDTV Live Hub) won't pass DTS-HD MA. It will pass Dolby TrueHD, but most of the BluRays I see now have the DTS-HD soundtrack, so I just have MakeMKV pull the DTS Core.

AsSiMiLaTeD

The audio track on the Blu Ray is the most important part for me, the video is nice but I MUST have the lossless audio track.

ViperZ

AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »

The audio track on the Blu Ray is the most important part for me, the video is nice but I MUST have the lossless audio track.

The biggest size file is still a video file. I'd consider going down to 720p MKV file, but keeping DTS-HD MA soundtrack, and stripping all the fluff too. Would be interesting to see the file size. I only have a single 2TB drive in my RAID now. If I have to go to 2x3TB, it's fine, but if I just have to get another 2TB, that would be great...

Thanks for recommending the ripping software!

AsSiMiLaTeD

I don't think Makemkv will do what you want though, there is no encoding option that I'm aware of, its a 1:1 rip of video and audio. You would need an encoding program that can keep the lossless tracks, not sure if Handbrake can do that or not.

billbillw

MakeMKV can take or leave the DTS-HD MA when ripping. By default, it only takes the Core DTS or Dolby Digital, but you can select the lossless tracks as well. Handbrake will also pass the lossless track if you select Passthrough in the audio settings.

As mentioned, the only reason I don't keep the lossless is because my streaming device won't play it back.

BTW, I feel that MakeMKV is vastly superior to DVDFab when ripping BluRay discs for later streaming. MakeMKV is updated frequently and I've almost never had a problem ripping a disc. Occasionally you get an issue where it sees dozens (or more) movie files (a form of copy protection) and you have to pick which one to rip. For problems like this, a simple search at the MakeMKV forum usually reveals which file you should select to get the full movie.

To re-encode, you definitely have to use Handbrake as a separate step. With fast machine (I have a Core I5 3570k), it takes about 45 minutes to rip with MakeMKV and another hour to re-encode with Handbrake using the default MKV settings.

nguyendot

Lasareath wrote: »

I installed a 3.75TB SAN for a client and I can do a complete bare metal backup of their largest server (789GB of space) in 3 minutes!

But the SAN was $32,000.00

Eh, that's 4.4GB per second transfer rate, which would equate to 4x10gig ethernet/fiber speeds at max theoretical throughput. What SAN that's only $32,000 can transfer that fast? I don't even think a fully loaded EMC/Compellent can do that, and those are way past the $32k mark.