What do you really gain in going from RTiA3 to RTiA5's?

27dnast

I currently have RTiA3's as my mains... CSiA6 center, fxiA4 surrounds, and RTiA1's as rear surrounds... HSU VTF2MK4 sub. Driven by an Elite VSX21 THX avr.

The sound, in general is very pleasing... however there are times that I feel there is something missing between mid range and the sub. Perhaps it's a little brightness at the top end? Or maybe the RTiA3's are a little thin in the mid-range?

I don't have a ton of room and I'm really not interested in picking up an external amp to push something like the A7's...

Which lends me to wonder if the RTiA5's would be a good move... I don't have a local option to hear them, unfortunately.

Anyone out there familiar with these two speakers? Can you describe the differences in their sound? Is the benefit really worth the price of upgrade?

tonyb

First off, a few questions.

How big is the room you have these in ?
Are they set to small or large ?
What crossover point are they set at ?
How far away do you sit ?
Did you play with any of the receivers settings ?
Does it sound the same in HT and music....thin ?
Associated gear/cables ?
Placement ?

Ok, thats more than a few, my bad. To answer your question about the A5's we first need to figure out the A3's.

27dnast

Thanks for taking this on... here we go:

How big is the room you have these in ?
How far away do you sit ?

11.5'w X 17L X 8T

Seating is 10 feet from speakers. Speakers are roughly 1.5' from walls. Speakers are on stands

Room is acoustically treated. Front of the room has soffit and corner bass traps and some front wall absorption. First reflection points have wall and ceiling treatments. Rear of the room has a slat diffuser and corner bass traps with craft paper facing.

Are they set to small or large ?
What crossover point are they set at ?

Set to small, 80HZ Xover

Associated gear/cables?
Did you play with any of the receivers settings?

They are powered by a Pioneer Elite VSX21THX. I have 2 subs... HSU VTF2-MK4 and an Energy S10.3. I have a BFD Feedback Destroyer to help manage the subs (used the REW software to program the BFD and measure issues in the room). The HSU is the primary sub... the Energy is used to help pull up a null (it's volume is kept to about half of that of the HSU). I also have 6 bass shakers managed by a second AVR.

Primary source is an Oppo 93 BD player.

All of my cables are monoprice. 14 Guage speaker wire used throughout the room.

I did use MCACC on the Elite to help calibrate and equalize the speakers... I then went back and manually checked sound levels to make sure all of my channels truly do match. Without going into too many specifics, overall the sound is very pleasing

Does it sound the same in HT and music....thin ?

This room is 100% movies... primarily Blu ray.

In terms of "thinness"

To clarify, I didn't mean to imply there is a gapping hole in my sound. I just kind of feel like there might be a little something more in the mids that another speaker could give me... maybe more depth in my soundstage... maybe I'm wrong. I haven't heard the A5's... but I'm curious. I have read a lot about the pros and cons of towers vs large bookshelf speakers. There seems to be a 50/50 split on the issue with a large camp saying that the imaging and clarity of a bookshelf is a big selling point... and that most floor standing speakers in the price range of the A5's introduce other issues such as cabinet resonance and a less focused sound.

I would definitely like to dump my energy sub and pick up another HSU. Perhaps that is a better option. I'm wondering if I made the effort to dump the A3's and make a move to the A5's that the gains would be so modest that it would be hard to tell...

deronb1

You have probably done this, but if you want more depth in the mids, have you tried setting the fronts to "large" and setting the xover to 50 or 60 hz?

tonyb

deronb1 wrote: »

You have probably done this, but if you want more depth in the mids, have you tried setting the fronts to "large" and setting the xover to 50 or 60 hz?

If his receiver will let him do that, some don't, but on that premiss I agree. Lower the crossover point and set to large if you can. Also, how is this second receiver controlling the bass shakers connected to the Pioneer ? If your using the preouts for the front speakers and the speaker connections themselves, that could be your problem, just guessing at this point. Not a big fan of monoprice cables, to me they are Home depot rebadged. Look used for some decent cables.

The A5's will give more of a midrange bump, how much depends on your room. Ever think maybe you have over dampened the room ? 2 subs, 6 bass shakers....kinda over kill my man, but hey to each his own. If I were you, I'd start with one sub, no bass shakers, no second receiver, set them to large crossover at 60 and see how you like the sound. Check too where the calibration put your front speaker levels at, should be close to 0 give or take a couple notches. Your only going to get so much from the A3's, but at this point it's pretty obvious you haven't hit their potential in full yet. I'm more so curious about how this second receiver is hooked up, you could be taking away from the pioneer, hence starving the 3's.

VR3

I just wanted to chime in and note that the VSX21 will let you redirect the bass to the mains but you have to set the subwoofer to "both" or "plus", I forget the exact wording, otherwise the sub will be doing virtually nothing. I will also note that you realistically would not gain anything from doing this as both of the aforementioned speakers start to taper off around 40hz anyways. I would maybe try two different settings, 50hz crossover and large + the sub.

27dnast

Hmm... interesting.

First, for the bass shakers. The second amp is fed by a split line coming out of the LFE out, so that's not an issue that will effect the front mains.

My second sub is only pulling up a null... and the volume setting on it is at the lowest point as to accomplish this (as measured with the REW software). It works without being intrusive.

The room is definitely not over dampened. I can tell you this simply from my own before and after tests. If anything, the acoustic treatments and diffuser made my set-up sound exponentially better - one of the best investments in time and resources I've made. It widened the sound field and the depth of the sound in the room... cut down boominess/ tightened my bass and had a huge effect on opening up my center channel. With the rear portions of the room having diffusion in addition to facing on the corner bass traps, plenty of the mid-high range frequencies are getting reflected back as to not overly dampen.

I'll have to go back and look at the EQ changes that MCACC made after running calibration... to be honest, I remember them not being drastic. In fact I have a hard time hearing a difference between a setting that contains manual calibration (speaker distance and level matching with no EQ) and the post calibrated MCACC generated setting. I've spent a ton of time mastering my knowledge of using the advanced mode of MCACC... only because I had some issues with it when I first bought the AVR several years ago!

Interesting idea on messing around with the crossover. I do believe I can bump it down to 60hz. I won't have a chance today... but tomorrow I'll dig into those settings and see what I can do.

27dnast

So, my AVR only will allow me to set the crossover at 50 or 80 Hz.

I switched it over to 50... and only had a chance to run comparisons on one movie - Crimson Tide. Not the greatest of audio presentations. I noticed that the blend, in some scenes, was slightly better at 50 Hz. By that, I mean it didn't sound like there was a hole in the mids... when I switched it back, I did notice that there was a bit more boominess in the room.

The frequency range of the csia6 is 45hz and rtia3 - 30 hz.... but they both have -3 dB in their lower limits. Considering the size of these speakers... is lowering the crossover to 50 Hz cutting it too low? It seems awfully low for speakers this size.

I'm not sure I'm totally sold on the benefits of moving up to the RTia5's... seems like the larger towers may introduce other variables...

I guess I have more experimenting to do...

Any thoughts?

cnh

According to the Polk Products page. The CSi A6 has a 55 hz 3db cut off and the Rti-A3s a 50 hz at 3db. Where are you getting the other figures? Usually 3 db is what you're "actually" going to hear and even then maybe not that loud. I'd cross that over at 60 hz if possible just to be safe! Or just run them at full range as suggested because you're not going to hear much below 50 hz in any case!

I have a pair of A3s so I kind of get what you're saying. I think that the A3s do have some real "limitations" especially when run on a "receiver".

Would A5s help? That's really hard to say. I'm not a big fan of the A5s or even the A7s. I only like the largest towers, Rti-A9s. They can do the bass and the midrange "right". But they need LOTS of power!

I also think that the A1s may actually image a little better than the A3s? I may be alone there, not sure!

cnh

gce

Don't be afraid of the A7's with your AVR. It will run them just fine without an external amp and be much better for HT then the A5's.

27dnast

My understanding is that in the price range of the RTiA series, you are going to get better imaging with the smaller enclosures... so that makes that you might have perceived that.

Unfortunately, my Elite only allows 50Hz or 80Hz as a crossover. Nothing in between. You're right about the specs...

I guess my best bet is staying with the 80 X-over.

gudnoyez

I own both the A5's and the A3's in a 5.1 set up and couldnt be happier the A5's have the 2 mid/woofers the A3's have 1. The mid range the A5's produce would do your set up well running them as fronts. I think the A7's are decent also, however if I had the proper amplification, I would jump up to the A9's.

TitaniumMan

Even though the RTiA series is just a bit bright, I have enjoyed listening to the ones in my friend's system. In my opinion, the RTiA3 is just too small for home theater use. The RTiA5 has better dynamics in the crossover region and just above. Also, the A5 doesn't take up any more room than the A3 on stands.

By the way, does the receiver have a way to reduce the treble brightness? That might help, and it's free.

27dnast

I'm not sure if you can say the a3 is too small. A powerful sub can do all the heavy lifting for them. There are a lot of enthusiasts that won't introduce towers into a home theater as to avoid issues that come along with the larger enclosures.. and say the imaging and clarity offered by a large bookshelf is a much better trade-off. The a5's are intriguing because they might offer a slightly fuller mid range with their second 6 1/2 mid range woofer. I wish there were a simple way to hear the two for a comparison... hopefully I can make my way over to polk fest.

To me, the a3's don't sound too bright.

27dnast

BTW, I've been watching the prices on the A5's... seems like there has been few to any sales... and no refurbs. I wonder how that pricing cycle works?

tonyb

Just my .02.....but to say bigger floorstanders somehow lack imaging and clarity over bookies is painting with a very broad brush. Sure, some maybe, just like some bookies can't image worth a spit and have clarity thats best described as scortching to the ears.

Comes down to placement and your room if towers are your bananna.

gp4jesus

In previous posts the advice about carefully choosing your LCR cutoffs, is spot-on. 50hz is pushing it. Same for your side/surrounds. I have my 'A1s @ 100hz

You're cutting your LCR off @ 80hz. Gauge WILL affect output & damping up to about 200hz. Above that it's affects taper off considerably.

At the risk of displaying my ignorance of your AVR & stirring up trouble, bi-wire your LCR.

Use 10* gauge for the mids IF it will fit* your bananas then stack your bananas. Internal rewire w/12 if you can, 14 if you can't will help.
* 12 gauge if you can't squeeze the 10 into your bananas

It's a VERY cheap upgrade in spite of that many will say its a wa$te. I experienced a 3(+)dB increase in output w/a pair of subs by changing speaker wire resistance. "Before:" .019978* ohms. "After:" .0049945* ohms.
* estimated per a wire gauge resistance chart; the "Before' & "After" of a single 10' run, of 10ga vs 5' double run of 10ga

http://www.ebay.com/itm/200782889375?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

Your other channels could stand heavier wire.

My $.03

I can see some winding up with the mud dripping between their fingers already.

Shaloam, Tony

Geoff4rfc

cnh wrote: »

Would A5s help? That's really hard to say. I'm not a big fan of the A5s or even the A7s. I only like the largest towers, Rti-A9s. They can do the bass and the midrange "right". But they need LOTS of power!


cnh

gudnoyez wrote: »

however if I had the proper amplification, I would jump up to the A9's.

Heck yeah, if you could do an amp + A9's, you'd never "want" again. But you've seen other good suggestions here, good luck on you.