Lance Armstrong, you're still the greatest

teekay0007

pitdogg2 wrote: »

witch hunt plain and simple. Why don't we go back and strip Arnold of all his body building titles we all know they ALL did roids and enhancements.

You can't strip someone of their titles when steroids or other PEDs were not banned from the competitions. :rolleyes: It's a well-known fact, and an "accepted" one - although never officially condoned - that all the top professional bodybuilders are juiced. There is just no way it is humanly possible for someone to put on the lean muscle mass that those guys, and girls, put on without the use of PEDs.

If any bodybuilding competition's title doesn't have the word "Natural" in it, it's a safe assumtion that the top competitors in the event are juiced. "Natural" events are the only ones where PED use is forbidden and testing is done. For several years, I trained and worked out with more than a few competitive natural bodybuilders. One of my workout partners even won the teenage natural title for the U.S. However, there is no way he could have even placed in the top ten in an "Open" event at the time. You also will NEVER find any top finishers in "Open" events competing in "Natural" events - they know what the doping test results would show.

mrbigbluelight

I'm just curious about one thing: if somehow (and that's an acknowledged big hypothetical "If") some conclusive evidence were to be produced that conclusively showed Lance used PED's over an extended period, what would people's opinions be then ?

For those who suppport Lance now, would your opinion change ?
Or would you still support Lance and, if so, what would be the source of your support ?

Not saying either side is "right", I'm just curious.

cubdog

It would be naive to think Armstrong won all those races and never cheated. I want that to be the truth but I wouldn't bet on it.

cubdog

Strong Bad

Whether he did use or didn't is irrelevant to me. What bothers me is the numerous times that all these governing bodies can just keep coming after him. In a regular court of law, we have the "Double Jeopardy" thing. The international governing body for cycling investigated this guy for 2 YEARS and dropped the case.

How about this one...the USADA is a governing body for the USA, not the world. Their arrogance and blatant disregard for any sort of fair justice has given them a "God Complex" to think they can strip him of titles won in FRANCE. The World Antidoping Agency has an 8 year statute of limitations that the USADA just decided to disregard. Any Tour from 98 to 04 would be untouchable, but not to a corrupt agency like the USADA. They simply rewrite the rules on the fly to meet their own needs and get their way!

I do like this article though and hope for Lance's and everyone elses sake that the UCI tells the USADA to go EFF THEMSELVES!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/aug/24/lance-armstrong-uci

I'm behind Lance 100%!

tonyb

You never see any of the crooks in government get chased down with such zeal. No, lets go after baseball players, cyclists. Lets spend the tax payer money destroying their hero's.

It's the fact that Lance won 7 titles that made them go after him. It's the fact that the good baseball players get chased down, not the bad ones. That tells me when you achieve above and beyond, there are those who wish to knock you down in our very own government. If Lance or anyone else was just run of the mill, nobody would have given them a second look.

Upstatemax

mrbigbluelight wrote: »

I'm just curious about one thing: if somehow (and that's an acknowledged big hypothetical "If") some conclusive evidence were to be produced that conclusively showed Lance used PED's over an extended period, what would people's opinions be then ?

For those who suppport Lance now, would your opinion change ?
Or would you still support Lance and, if so, what would be the source of your support ?

Not saying either side is "right", I'm just curious.

I would still support the man. I don't think doping is alright, but I support Lance for a lot more than cycling. The fact is, he changed how people view cancer. He gave a lot of people with small windows of hope the will to fight, sometimes they won. He put to the main stage a story of not simply athletic dominance, but a way to beat cancer and to show how good life can be after your battle.

I truly believe that there would be a lot more cancer victims, not survivors, out there today if he was not around.

headrott

I don't know if Lance was doping or not. I would like to think he did not and is telling the truth that he did not. Doping or not, he worked exceptionally hard to do what he did over the years.

That said (regarding doping), my cousin was 4 time national mountain biking champion, and won the world mountain biking championship. He raced in the 1996 olympics in Atlanta, Georgia against the biker who won the gold medal many many times, and had beaten the gold medal winner many times prior to the olympics. My cousin said it is unheard of to have a fellow racer come in over 2 minutes ahead of the closest biker's time without doping. My cousin was convinced that people at the olympics were doping with substances that could not be detected. He gave up racing for a while due to this, and about 4 years ago got back into it.

kidglove13

I am going to stay on the fence.
I am a ex-pro mountain biker
While I did not even come close to racing at his level on the mountain or the road bike drugs are every where.
I played football in college, small time division III, and guys on my team took steroids, I used to ask myself why would you do that even at this small of a level knowing that you will never make the big time.
It all was really a joke to me.
The reality of it is that for the top contenders to be top contenders they all are doing it, thats the bottom line.
Whether he did it or not at this point is kind of irrelevant.
He has done a tremendous job at what he does.
This goes way beyond just trying get Lance, it is all about egos and trying to save face in the light of other recent loses by the Feds to go after other big athletes.
Case in point, the feds are still stinging about losing the battle to Roger Clemens.
By doing this the Feds are not cleaning up any sports or opening their eyes to anything at this point.
In the real world Lance is bigger than all of them regardless of the outcome of this whole thing.
All of his major sponsors that back him and his foundation have all pretty much said that they are behind Lance.
This speaks volumes to the world.
All the people that he has helped over the years do not care about what the USADA has to say because Lance has touched them on a different level.
This whole thing is about ego plan and simple.
I am not going to say he did cheat one way or the other, because we all know in reality the nature of the pro cycling at that level it is just the way it is.
No one is going to clean up the sport, drugs will evolve as the sport evolves, it is just a simple truth.
In any pro sport there is the need to be the best, and that will always be, therefore there will always be PED's involved regardless of what the world wants to think.

Strong Bad

In reality, the USADA and the Feds are only interested in bringing down the big names so they can thump their chest and make it seem like they are doing us a favor by ridding us of that evil. If they truly had an ounce of interest in actually cleaning out the drugs from sports, then they'd aim their guns full blast to the world of Bodybuilding. They spout off at the mouth all the time telling the world they want to clean up sports so our kids are not tempted to take these drugs. How many of us grew up watching Arnold, Lou Ferrigno, etc...and wishing we could be big like them. There's tons of kids that lookup to the bodybuilders and want to be big just like them.

Yeah bud, it's all chicken, fish and protein powders!

BlueFox

tonyb wrote: »

You never see any of the crooks in government get chased down with such zeal. No, lets go after baseball players, cyclists. Lets spend the tax payer money destroying their hero's.

This is just an off shoot of the 'War On Drugs' that the lunatic fringe has been pushing for the last 30 years.

mesquitehead

F1nut wrote: »

This guy passed every drug test given to him and now after he's retired some US government backed witch hunt agency proclaims him a doper......WOW, just WOW!!!

http://aol.sportingnews.com/sport/story/2012-08-23/lance-armstrong-ending-fight-vs-anti-doping-agency-could-lose-tour-de-france-****?icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-nb%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D196452

Lance, you're still the greatest and Travis Tygart is a POS.

Amen brother! I am a bit partial as I'm an Austinite but this man has done great things beyond the bike. The Livestrong non-profit foundation has done a great deal for cancer awareness and research. What kills me is they always go after the guys who are already retired like Roger Clemens.

kidglove13

Lance is way bigger than we all think.

Since this news broke a few days ago, his foundation has received more than 400 donations totaling more than $75,000

What they are doing is making him a martyr, and probably bigger than he ever was.

It is all going to back fire in their faces.

treitz3

US doping agency targets Lance Armstrong's titles
Published August 25, 2012
Associated Press

His seven Tour de France titles stripped away and his legacy in tatters, Lance Armstrong is heading back outdoors and into the public eye.

A day after the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency punished Armstrong with a lifetime ban from professional cycling and erased 14 years of his career after concluding he used performance-enhancing drugs, Armstrong is scheduled to ride in a mountain bike race in Aspen, Colo., on Saturday and follow it up by running a marathon there Sunday.

And he has no plans to slow down any time soon, despite the whirlwind of controversy swirling around him.
Armstrong spokesman Mark Higgins said Armstrong also still plans to attend the World Cancer Congress in Montreal where's he scheduled to deliver a keynote address to thousands in attendance.

"He's getting out there," Higgins said.

Anti-doping and cycling officials will continue to address his career.

USADA said Friday it expects cycling's governing body to take similar action, but the International Cycling Union was measured in its response, saying it first wanted a full explanation of why Armstrong should relinquish Tour titles he won from 1999 through 2005.

The Amaury Sport Organization, which runs the world's most prestigious cycling race, said it would not comment until hearing from the UCI and USADA. The U.S. agency contends the cycling body is bound by the World Anti-Doping Code to strip Armstrong of one of the most incredible achievements in sports.

Armstrong, who retired a year ago and turns 41 next month, said Thursday he would no longer challenge USADA and declined to exercise his last option by entering arbitration. He denied again that he ever took banned substances in his career, calling USADA's investigation a "witch hunt" without any physical evidence.

USADA chief executive Travis Tygart described the investigation as a battle against a "win-at-all-cost culture," adding that the UCI was "bound to recognize our decision and impose it."

"They have no choice but to strip the titles under the code," he said.

That would leave Greg LeMond as the only American to win the Tour de France, having done so in 1986, 1989 and 1990.
LeMond did not immediately respond to messages requesting comment left through his attorneys and friends.

Armstrong on Friday sent a tweet about his plans to race in Aspen, but did not comment directly on the sanctions.
The UCI and USADA have engaged in a turf war over who should prosecute allegations against Armstrong. The UCI even backed Armstrong's failed legal challenge to USADA's authority, and it cited the same World Anti-Doping Code in saying that it wanted to hear more from the U.S. agency.

"As USADA has claimed jurisdiction in the case, the UCI expects that it will issue a reasoned decision" explaining the action taken, the Switzerland-based organization said in a statement. It said legal procedures obliged USADA to fulfill this demand in cases "where no hearing occurs."

If Tour de France officials follow USADA's lead and announce that Armstrong has been stripped of his titles, Jan Ullrich could be promoted to champion in three of those years. Ullrich was stripped of his third-place finish in the 2005 Tour and retired from racing two years later after being implicated in another doping scandal.
The retired German racer expressed no desire to rewrite the record book of cycling's greatest event, even though he would be the biggest beneficiary.

"I know how the order was on the finishing line at the time," Ullrich said. "I've finished with my professional career and have always said that I was proud of my second-place finishes."

The International Olympic Committee said Friday it will await decisions by USADA and UCI before taking any steps against Armstrong, who won a bronze medal at the 2000 Sydney Games. Besides the disqualifications, Armstrong will forfeit any medals, winnings, points and prizes, USADA said, but it is the lost titles that now dominate his legacy.

Every one of Armstrong's competitive races from Aug. 1, 1998, has been vacated by USADA, established in 2000 as the official anti-doping agency for Olympic sports in the United States. Since Armstrong raced in UCI-sanctioned events, he was subject to international drug rules enforced in the U.S. by USADA. Its staff joined a federal criminal investigation of Armstrong that ended earlier this year with no charges being filed.

USADA said its evidence came from more than a dozen witnesses "who agreed to testify and provide evidence about their firsthand experience and/or knowledge of the doping activity of those involved in the USPS conspiracy," a reference to Armstrong's former U.S. Postal Service cycling team.

The unidentified witnesses said they knew or had been told by Armstrong himself that he had "used EPO, blood transfusions, testosterone and cortisone" from before 1998 through 2005, and that he had previously used EPO, testosterone and Human Growth Hormone through 1996, USADA said. Armstrong also allegedly handed out doping products and encouraged banned methods -- and even used "blood manipulation including EPO or blood transfusions" during his 2009 comeback race on the Tour.
In all, USADA said up to 10 former Armstrong teammates were set to testify against him. Had Armstrong chosen to pursue arbitration, USADA said, all the evidence would have been available for him to challenge.

"He chose not to do this knowing these sanctions would immediately be put into place," the statement said.
Armstrong said he has grown tired of defending himself in a seemingly endless fight against charges that he doped while piling up more Tour victories than anyone. He has consistently pointed to the hundreds of drug tests that he passed as proof of his innocence during his extraordinary run of Tour titles.

"There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, `Enough is enough.' For me, that time is now," Armstrong said Thursday night, before the deadline to enter arbitration.

His success helped sell millions of the "Livestrong" plastic bracelets and enabled him to promote cancer awareness and research, raising nearly $500 million since his Lance Armstrong Foundation was started in 1997.

Foundation officials said they remained "proud" of Armstrong and had received hundreds of messages of support from donors, partners and supporters since his announcement. Among them was Nike Inc., which said it planned to continue supporting Armstrong and the foundation.

"Lance has stated his innocence and has been unwavering on this position," the company said.
Anheuser-Busch said its partnership with Armstrong was unchanged. American Century Investments, another partner, issued a statement supporting him.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2012/0...#ixzz24aO9TExN

Tom

dudeinaroom

cubdog wrote: »

It would be naive to think Armstrong won all those races and never cheated. I want that to be the truth but I wouldn't bet on it.

cubdog

Guess we better strip Phelps of all his metals too then. No way he could have done all that with out "cheating".....give me a break!

Strong Bad wrote: »

Whether he did use or didn't is irrelevant to me. What bothers me is the numerous times that all these governing bodies can just keep coming after him. In a regular court of law, we have the "Double Jeopardy" thing. The international governing body for cycling investigated this guy for 2 YEARS and dropped the case.

How about this one...the USADA is a governing body for the USA, not the world. Their arrogance and blatant disregard for any sort of fair justice has given them a "God Complex" to think they can strip him of titles won in FRANCE. The World Antidoping Agency has an 8 year statute of limitations that the USADA just decided to disregard. Any Tour from 98 to 04 would be untouchable, but not to a corrupt agency like the USADA. They simply rewrite the rules on the fly to meet their own needs and get their way!

I do like this article though and hope for Lance's and everyone elses sake that the UCI tells the USADA to go EFF THEMSELVES!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/aug/24/lance-armstrong-uci

I'm behind Lance 100%!

Amen brotha

tonyb

BlueFox wrote: »

This is just an off shoot of the 'War On Drugs' that the lunatic fringe has been pushing for the last 30 years.

Thats a bit of a stretch my friend. Every group likes to have catchy slogans for their causes, no matter how stupid or noble it may be.

mesquitehead

If we banned all the NFL and NBA players that smoked weed nobody would even be able to field a team!

tonyb

mesquitehead wrote: »

If we banned all the NFL and NBA players that smoked weed nobody would even be able to field a team!

Maybe so.....but because everyone does something does that make it OK ?

F1nut

USADA chief executive Travis Tygart described the investigation as a battle against a "win-at-all-cost culture,"

That right there says EVERYTHING you need to know about this witch hunt.

tonyb

F1nut wrote: »

That right there says EVERYTHING you need to know about this administration.

Fixed that for ya big guy.

shack

Regardless of what any so called governing body says...

As far as I'm concerned, Lance Armstrong won 7 Tour De France races in a row. I watched them all and saw him finish wearing the yellow jersey and watched them hand him the trophy. IMO he is the greatest bicyle racer of all time and nothing the usada does will alter my opinion.

On 24 August 2012 the United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA), which claims to have jurisdiction on the matter, attempted to strip Armstrong of his results since August 1998, including his seven Tour de France titles, and giving him a lifetime ban. The UCI, the world governing body, disputes USADA's authority in the matter, as its evidence does not arise from testing.

breystonfan

He's retired, why go after him? Doesn't make sense

Gadabout

F1nut wrote: »

That right there says EVERYTHING you need to know about this witch hunt.

tonyb wrote: »

Originally Posted by F1nut

That right there says EVERYTHING you need to know about this administration.

Fixed that for ya big guy.

What administration are you referring too?


Scott

mister pig

I don't get it either. They hounded the man for years, after he passed multiple tests. Seems like there should be a statue of limitations on how long this can go on. Or once found innocent, unable to be prosecuted again......

Regards
Mister Pig

Roy Munson

Marion Jones won 5 medals during the 2000 Olympics and she never tested positive even though the Olympics have the best testing available. The fact that Armstrong never failed a test is not relevant as to whether he was a steroid user or not.

Jones admitted guilt after a paper trail and witnesses came forward..that's what was about to happen to Armstrong when he decided to drop the fight.

What I find more surprising is that so many people are willing to support an athlete whether it be Armstrong or someone else that has cheated the sport they play. They also cheat the clean athlete that wants to compete fairly.

I find it damning that Armstrong would just drop the matter and let them take everything away without so much as a fight.

tonyb

Roy Munson wrote: »

What I find more surprising is that so many people are willing to support an athlete whether it be Armstrong or someone else that has cheated the sport they play. They also cheat the clean athlete that wants to compete fairly.

I find it damning that Armstrong would just drop the matter and let them take everything away without so much as a fight.

See now, you are presuming guilt before any evidence has been brought forth. I suspect if they had any real evidence, it would have been front page news by now, but they don't.

Armstrong has been fighting this for years, you make it sound like he just got into the ring. Where's the paper trail, who are these witnesses ? Time to put the cards on the table and see who's bluffing.

As far as witnesses go, I can get anyone to say anything for the right coin. I can get a witness to say you were fondling kids at the playground, doesn't make it true now does it ?

F1nut

Roy Munson wrote: »

I find it damning that Armstrong would just drop the matter and let them take everything away without so much as a fight.

The problem with your conclusion is that the USADA can't take away squat and Lance knows it.

As Shack already pointed out,

On 24 August 2012 the United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA), which claims to have jurisdiction on the matter, attempted to strip Armstrong of his results since August 1998, including his seven Tour de France titles, and giving him a lifetime ban. The UCI, the world governing body, disputes USADA's authority in the matter, as its evidence does not arise from testing.

drumminman

tonyb wrote: »

See now, you are presuming guilt before any evidence has been brought forth. I suspect if they had any real evidence, it would have been front page news by now, but they don't.

Armstrong has been fighting this for years, you make it sound like he just got into the ring. Where's the paper trail, who are these witnesses ? Time to put the cards on the table and see who's bluffing.

As far as witnesses go, I can get anyone to say anything for the right coin. I can get a witness to say you were fondling kids at the playground, doesn't make it true now does it ?

That's what the trial would have done. Witnesses could have testified and been cross examined. Paper documents could have been analyzed. Armstrong is such a fighter it seems out of character for him to give up like he did.

sucks2beme

Sports is about winning. Nothing else. IF everybody else was doping, then most likely he was too.
I don't idolize any of them They make good money and provide entertainment.
Watch and cheer, but in the end that's all it's about. I watch UFC. They work hard,
take a beating , win OR lose. For the most part, honest entertainment.
Baseball, football, etc. have become huge cash cows. Athletes make $$$.
Owners make $$$$ and bully cities into handing them new facilities at public cost which
adds value to their team. Boxing has been a mess for decades.
Bowling anyone???

fossy

Lance was smarter than the average guy ......he outsmarted the "then" current regulations .... hence he passed all the tests

tonyb

How many of you guys ever pleaded guilty to a traffic ticket instead of spending the coin on lawyers to fight it, even though you were innocent ? Pay the fine and move on, not worth fighting.....right ?

LA doesn't have endless cash reserves to keep fighting with the cast of lawyers he'd need. The government does however. What they can't nail you with on evidence, they can destroy you financialy or until you say "I give". Somewhere in the mist of all this, someone had a bug up their arse about LA and set out to destroy the guy, his reputation, and his wallet. Comes down to making a decision on how much of your assets are you willing to throw out the window defending yourself. That answer becomes easier once your retired and have other interests.