Very bass shy CRS+'s

audiocr381ve

Okay, the original polarity was correct for both speakers. Both drivers in both speakers move OUT.

Must be a placement thing...

TennMan

I would do the battery test again where the speaker wires connect at the amp to be sure everything is in phase. Disconnect the IC.

TennMan

heiney9 wrote: »

CRS+'s put out as much bass or more as a Monitor 10B, they are not bass shy, however anything below about 40-45Hz would start to become inaudible.

Just curious nhhiep, ever owned or listened to a pair of CRS+'s or are you just guessing they would be bass shy?

H9

I wouldn't call the CRS really bass shy but I found them lacking compared to the 10Bs. The CRS+ doesn't have the bass impact and the full bass sound of the 10B IMHO. That is the reason I put the CRS+ crossovers and MWs in my 10B cabinets. I can't do a side by side comparison but I have swapped them back and forth and I definitely prefer the bass of the 10Bs with the SDA sound the best. To think a smaller cabinet with the PR facing the rear wall would have better bass, when using the same drivers, doesn't make much sense to me but that may be true in some situations.

audiocr381ve

Just tried that. Same result.

Great little trick, but I'm still at a loss.

evhudsons

Keep in mind the source material. If you are using an old Marantz are you listening to radio? The CRS+ puts out the bass the source material has in it, nothing more. I thought it had little bass too, but when you play music heavier on the bass these little speakers can do their thing. I noticed that country, reggae and some dance music have a deeper bass. Rap has some but it's more the beats thing that isn't my cup of bass tea. I love bass, really good deep nice sounding bass. My CRS+ does fine, but I want more hence I do use a subwoofer. But I have a seperate amp for that and have more than once thought to myself how nice the bass sounds before I realize it's just the CRS+, sub wasn't on.

Try a good source, and if you Pandora try putting on Noiseshaper, it's like a club reggae that has really superb bass that isn't obnoxious. If you put on Bass Mekanik, you will really here your babies boom. I have a monster subwoofer fed from my avr and right now I'm using a nad to give the two 4ohm 15 inch subs 600 watts of power. The nad has a nifty knob to control it's power to turn the volume up or down, but I only use it for music sources with low bass, like rock, and also for movies.

My friend's 1c's were so far from bass shy I think it's bass output was almost on par with my monster subwoofer. But even in that case it's source specific, the way music should be. The subwoofer adds bass where there may not have been much meant to be heard anyway. I go between using a sub and not, but trust me, those little crs+ and especially the 1c's produce amazing bass. Right now I'm listening to Noiseshaper from another room and I can hear the bass just fine, sub off.

I did, however, upgrade my inducter to a solen inductor. It helped the type of bass response, but not raise it louder. It made everything sound much better though, I'm super happy I did that. The thing that was dramatic was larry's rings, and sealing the holes formed when I made adjustments. I used silicon and then I used armecell to seal the drivers. The certainly helped. After making my sda interconnect port I sealed off the old sda connection which added a good seal.

If you want more bass on ALL music, then add a sub. Otherwise it plays the music as intended, bass not lacking.

In this photo you can see my crs+ on stands at spec hight, spiked. But behind it you can see the subwoofer, it has some basket with pine cones my wife set on there. It was a sealed plexiglass front with ported sides HUGE box with 2 15 inch 4ohm Dr. Crankenstein speakers, now covered in pine and stained to match the house. That's the only way I got to keep them as they are. But for me to sometimes think that sub is on when really it's just the CRS+, the bass is there man! I can use the sub to make the neighbors bring the lawn furniture in when I play my thunderstorm recording, but really it's just to please my heavy bass loving need from all music.

play good music well recorded and produced that has bass and you will here it. I am running the parasound amp now, but I had plenty of bass when I ran just my marantz 2230.

Try source material first, make sure your seals are proper, and follow H9's advice, set them up properly because if not, who cares if you have bass? You need quality SDA even more.

Dennis Gardner

TennMan wrote: »

To think a smaller cabinet with the PR facing the rear wall would have better bass, when using the same drivers, doesn't make much sense to me but that may be true in some situations.

You've evidently never tested bass boxes in the trunk of a car. Simply flipping it around facing the trunk instead of forward increases the bass by 3-6 dB.

There is something amiss with the mods done to this set of CRS. It must be a phase/wiring/crossover issue. I have run my CRS+ with my Marantz 1150 (75wpc) and my Marantz 1060 (30 wpc) quite a bit with no difference in bass even when compared to my HK Citation 24 amp. Only my Odyssey has better bass with these little speakers and I attribute that to more headroom and damping.

audiocr381ve

Thanks guys. I think it's a combination of my room and me maybe expecting to much from them. I am treating the room in the next week or two.

Bass heavy songs are just that, bass heavy. What I'm looking for is a balanced sound on any type of track. It's THAT lacking right now. I'm going to mess with placement more and see what I come up with.

TennMan

Dennis Gardner wrote: »

You've evidently never tested bass boxes in the trunk of a car. Simply flipping it around facing the trunk instead of forward increases the bass by 3-6 dB.

You are correct. I have never done that and have no intentions of doing so. I'm 6'1" and weight 270 lbs. There's not many trunks that I would fit in.

motorstereo

One other thought that I didn't see mentioned. Did you replace the gaskets when you did the recap? If the cabs aren't sealed up airtight that would also lessen the bass. I also have a pair of crs's and I find them to have outstanding bass for such a small pair of speakers. My crs's aren't able to be set up properly either but no complaints here about them being bass shy.

heiney9

I'm going with placement and amplification, although you said you used the B&K, maybe try the B&K again when you get them set-up properly.

What you are describing even after moving them is not characteristic of them, but I realize all rooms are different as well as individual expectations.

H9

Conradicles

heiney9 wrote: »

however anything below about 40-45Hz would start to become inaudible.

Really?

nspindel

heiney9 wrote: »

I'm going with placement and amplification, although you said you used the B&K, maybe try the B&K again when you get them set-up properly.


H9

Having been absolutely shocked by the impact of room treatments, particularly in how they tighten up the bass, I would add the treatments to your list.

newrival

Face wrote: »

With them backed up against the wall there should be an abundance of bass.

Not so, the PR is on the rears of CRSs. they need to be pulled off the wall.

I'm not as adamant about them being on stands. There is nothing terribly wrong with them being on a stand except in that the front baffle should be at least to the front edge of the dresser. And thy only need to be wider if the listening position is far back. The only requirements are as you stated, and are described on the SDA placard: Perpendicular distance to leading vertical edge should be greater than or equal to the distance between the speakers. This means slightly closer than an equilateral triangle or farther back. The other condition is to be 3' from any side walls. other than that and the fact that CRSs are the only SDAs that need to be off the rear wall, and you should be fine.

newrival

I think placement is effecting your uneven bass. with them so close to the wall, bass gets muddy and heavy handed as stated in the CRS manual. I think H9 is at least mostly right about placement being the culprit. Also, it appears you have a bass null at your listening position.

PS, all SDAs need a sub (or two), even 1.2tls

bluecomet

I could see using a sub for HT duties but for 2 channel lessoning, I am more than satisfied with the bass response with just about all of my SDA's. Amplification makes a huge difference with these speakers.

newrival

bluecomet wrote: »

I could see using a sub for HT duties but for 2 channel lessoning, I am more than satisfied with the bass response with just about all of my SDA's. Amplification makes a huge difference with these speakers.

I've owned 5 models of SDA/SRS (from smallest to biggest, litterally), so I am aware of their abilities. It doesn't atter how much power you put to them, you cant properly reproduce the deepest infrasonics acurately with any of them. I think you'd be surprised how much better 1.2tls sound with a sub crossed over at 23Hz sound.

It's all a matter of preference. Plenty of people, like you, are satisfied without infrasonics, or true full range extension. It's the same argument with speakers reproducing above the audible threshold. Why would you care if your speakers can reproduce a sound that you can't hear, but the fact is that while you can't hear the sound, you can hear its harmonic frequncies which aids in acurate reproduction.

There are plenty of people who don't like external subs (usually those who have never heard them properly integrated), and that's fine. It's all about what you like.

But all that aside, Polk SDAs of any flavor are hardly bass shy relative to other speakers.

F1nut

I've run my 4.1TL's (CRS+) in various rooms at 5 to 6 inches off the back wall with very good results. Of course, the bass isn't as deep as the bigger SDA's, but it's still decent.

audiocr381ve

Placement helped a lot. I really do think I have a bad null in my room. The PR in the back is a PITA to work with and get right IMO.

OldmanSRS

newrival wrote: »

think you'd be surprised how much better 1.2tls sound with a sub crossed over at 23Hz sound.

There are plenty of people who don't like external subs (usually those who have never heard them properly integrated), and that's fine. It's all about what you like.

But all that aside, Polk SDAs of any flavor are hardly bass shy relative to other speakers.

I agree with you. I've run an HSU VTF-3 sub crossed at 25 hz (at a very low volume level) with the 1.2's for years. Sub placement and phasing is critical to get smooth integration. The low DCR inductor mod made a significant improvement in the 1.2 low bass but the sub still adds something important for very low bass reproduction in organ pedals and stand-up bass for example

Some people get turned off by subs used in HT applications for music because they are designed boomy to accentuate the explosions etc arround 40 - 100 hz. Choosing a musical, accurate sub with a low XO point and a steep rolloff is the key.

heiney9

The biggest oversight you fail to mention Newrival, is very little popular music is recorded that has a signal much below about 32-35Hz. Sure organ music and maybe some classical audiophile recordings go lower but most modern music isn't mastered with hardly any material below 32-35Hz. There are exceptions but they are few and far between. I can possibly see adding a sub to larger SDA's if you want the full impact of movies in a 5.1 HT setting. For music, IMO, it is uneccesary because the signal isn't there. All you are doing is reinforcing tones the SDA's are already capable of reproducing.

I can rattle the walls with my 1C's in 2channel mode when watching certain movies with low level content. Does it go as low as nice sub for HT material, no, but still plenty low for immense enjoyment. A sub is not needed for the larger SDA's when being used in a well appointed 2ch rig and correct set-up.

H9

vcwatkins

I have had 3 different crs+'s and crs's in an office rig similar to your current setup (5' apart, orig stands) powered by a Marantz 2270. Not bass shy by any definition; similar to that of 2b's (small room though). I think it's gotta be in the mods.

However, I have experienced remarkable placement effects with these. I have a pair in the studio placed 15' apart on the wide wall of a long, narrow room, 15in off wall, toed in, no sda interconnect - not ideal by any means. But the bass holes and peaks due to the weird room are amazing.

Have you tested for tight seal?

heiney9

It would be interesting to test the SRS's and 1.2's against some of the popular mid to upper mid priced musical subs out there. I would bet they would do as good or better than the subs of recreating lower level content.

H9

OldmanSRS

If your van is ever down my the Tennessee River, stop over and we can compare the upper mid priced VTF-3 to the 1.2's. The sub is very accurate and reinforces frequencies below 25 hz cleanly which the 1.2's produce very well but in my room, are not optimized for propagation to the listening position. The sub is undoubtedly making up for some room deficits. I don't have the option of extensive room treatments so this is the best solution.

Popular music can be lacking in very low bass but pipe organ, symphony and jazz contain a lot. I've heard huge pipe organs in cathedrals that exude 16 hz bass from 32' pipes that reverberates off granite walls. With the sub running I get a good sense of that in my basement with the 1.2's.

heiney9

Will do OldmanSRS if I'm ever down there. And yes, I excluded organ music in my post because I have listened to a fair amount of live organ as well as recorded organ music and they do hit the lower register.

And yes, I can see the benefit of using a sub for reinforcement *if* the mains aren't/can't be set-up to get the full frequency into the room. But that's not the exception Newrival made, he stated his point as an absolute:

newrival wrote:

I've owned 5 models of SDA/SRS (from smallest to biggest, litterally), so I am aware of their abilities. It doesn't atter how much power you put to them, you cant properly reproduce the deepest infrasonics acurately with any of them.

Now I am not huge believer in using frequency response published by manufacturer's but just having a peak at some of the subs vs. the actual measurements taken of the original SRS it all points to the original SRS's being capable of reproducing down to 12Hz (+/-7dB; I know that's really starting to roll off, but I'm guessing many mid-priced subs can't do that) and a +/- 4dB lower response of 20Hz. Polks best Micro Pro doesn't go that low (if you go entirely by spec).

It would be fun to do a listening session to see how they stack up.

H9

evhudsons

If you stick your ear behind the passives you will hear your bass. The placement and room size are really important because the passives are in the rear. My living room is large and I have inherent placement issues anyway so I blend in a sub which works great. My monitor audio speakers put out a lot of bass and they are smaller than the crs, but if I put them in the living room they would lose much of their bass. I thought I had sealed everything well but as I looked closer some of the cabinet board had come loose when installing the rings. I used silicon to seal up all the edges and also sealed up the old sda interconnect. On the four screws holdind down the passive grill I put a dab of silicon on the screw. Sealing up tight, then tightening and retightening the screws slowly and firmly by hand until all was evenly tight. I had to do it a few times to get it right. But my bass is really sweet and I get subwoofer quality musical bass that is more than satisfying. Being the size it is it doesn't fill the whole room with bass volume, but it does fill the room with quality well blended satisfyingly beautiful bass.
I think I know what you are listening for. The SDA's I've heard are only two, mine and a set of 1c's. The 1c's filled up the room with Tremendous thundering wife unpleased bass. my friend loves all music but he does like more musical urban music with lots of bass on all levels. He loves the 1c's. I sealed up his speakers with mortite which really helped but I was really surprised out how much bass volume it produces.
So I think if it is Volume you need then yes a crs+ isn't going to kick you in the chest with bass. But it does produce it just fine for the ear to hear. I have a massive subwoofer but have many times assumed it was on when it wasn't when listening to music.

drumminman

OldmanSRS wrote: »

If your van is ever down my the Tennessee River, stop over and we can compare the upper mid priced VTF-3 to the 1.2's. The sub is very accurate and reinforces frequencies below 25 hz cleanly which the 1.2's produce very well but in my room, are not optimized for propagation to the listening position. The sub is undoubtedly making up for some room deficits. I don't have the option of extensive room treatments so this is the best solution.

Popular music can be lacking in very low bass but pipe organ, symphony and jazz contain a lot. I've heard huge pipe organs in cathedrals that exude 16 hz bass from 32' pipes that reverberates off granite walls. With the sub running I get a good sense of that in my basement with the 1.2's.

I'm in the same boat with my 2.3TL's re: proper set up. I have plenty of room on each side, but it's not possible for me to get them positioned close to the back wall - damned fireplace alcoves on each side!

My solution is to put in a 15" velodyne sub on the same plane as the speaks (just inside the right speaker) to minimize phase issues, & cross at at around 50 hz. With this set up the bass sounds like it's coming from the 2.3TL's, no boominess, totally musical. Without the sub the bass is there, but a little too low in the mix for me, especially on recordings with plucked double bass, low organ notes, even some electric bass. Also fills out the tone on well recorded bass drum notes.

OldmanSRS

Revealed: All the sub users are coming out of the closet

Face

audiocr381ve, have you done the leak test? When you push on a woofer(push straight in, and easy), does the other woofer push out? How long does it stay out before going back in?

OldmanSRS

If you want to hear strong subsonic bass that can even make you feel sick, play this song. There's a short burst of VERY deep bass when played at -32 db (about 2 watts) on my system will almost hurt you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49Uo0V1DNG8

vcwatkins

OldmanSRS wrote: »

If you want to hear strong subsonic bass that can even make you feel sick, play this song. There's a short burst of VERY deep bass when played at -32 db (about 2 watts) on my system will almost hurt you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49Uo0V1DNG8

Well the Hartleys definitely pass the "Bass I Love You" test. LOL. Wow!