Dumb things you've heard from "audiophiles"...

EndersShadow

tonyb wrote: »

It's all good man, ya know...."common sense dictates" that the experienced carpenter is your best bet anyway. Also very dependant on your definition of "common sense".

If only you could teach common sense lol......

nwohlford

It is probably not exactly a dumb thing, since it does require more knowledge than the average person, but almost any sentence uttered by an audiophile using the word "electron" is bound to be wrong (often spectacularly). I have seen a few comments regarding cutting down on the vibrations of the electrons in their system which is of course crazy talk.

If you are ever tempted to use the word "electron", see if you can substitute the word "current". If you can, use current instead. If you cannot, this is one of those times you should remain silent rather than prove yourself a fool. In general, before speaking about any subatomic particle, you should ask yourself how many semesters of quantum mechanics you have had. If your answer is less than 2, you should tread carefully.

txcoastal1

EndersShadow wrote: »

If only you could teach common sense lol......

Having my elders putting a couple knots on my head worked ...I think

tonyb

txcoastal1 wrote: »

Having my elders putting a couple knots on my head worked ...I think

You got that right, I started to look like Gumby when I was kid from the knocks on the head. To top it off, I had twin older sisters that would twist me up like a pretzel too. Don't picture that please.

steveinaz

Climb out of the box, sheesh. Experiment, stop parroting the internet dribble. Try things for yourself and see if they make a difference.

txcoastal1

steveinaz wrote: »

Climb out of the box, sheesh. Experiment, stop parroting the internet dribble. Try things for yourself and see if they make a difference.

You are correct, the biggest problem is, now days getting out to places that have nice gear. I live in the great state of TX and drove around to all the major cities, and a few houses and shows to get a grasp of what I really wanted and enjoyed hearing. It has taken every bit of 2 years to accomplish this, and once I get all the pieces in the rack setup and listen for a couple months, I'm sure I still won't be done.

Thats why its called a hobby...but I am sure there are limits to other parts of the U.S. that this next to impossible

But the first hi-end audio shop I visited I was hooked, all the definitions: soundstage, depth, dark, neutral etc started to make since, but those who may never get a chance to experience will never get it

BeefJerky

headrott wrote: »

This seems like a provocation to me.

Not intentionally. However, I do have a very strong view on the subject.

That said, have you read Ray's (Darqueknight's) detailed thread on why ABX and DBT's are not fit for stereophonic audio? It is extremely well done and informative. Ray is an electronics engineer for all the "science" proves or nullifies all types out there. You can find it here.

Yes. He actually does make some very good points. Not all DBT tests are created equal, and there are some common failures among many: namely limited listening time and poor (or non-existent) level matching. However, to claim that a properly done DBT isn't useful is pure hogwash. I support DBT, but the participants also need to be able to take as much time as they want to listen to the different elements.

Simply put, if the difference can't be heard in a proper DBT, there is no actual audible difference. Or, to put it another way, the difference you thought you were hearing wasn't actually there.

Also, have you looked up the definition of placebo?

Yes. While it may have been used in the past solely to refer to medicinal experiments, the definition no longer refers only to that. In modern terms, the placebo effect can refer to anything where a persons perception of something is different from reality, primarily due to their expectations. This is the definition I am going by.

Lastly, if by using the word "placebo", you are implying that people who can hear and feel a difference a power cord makes are deceiving themselves I ask the question: How many people does it take having experienced the differences a cable makes to show that we are not deceiving ourselves? I can guarantee you that I am not; of course my saying that cannot convince you that you can experience the differences a cable makes. I'm sorry you are missing out on great audio!

For starters, it would be nice if any of these people could actually prove themselves by DBT. However, I am not aware of any case where this is happened, but feel free to point me out a proper study that supports the claimed differences in power cables. Until then, I will remain unconvinced.

Toolfan66 wrote: »

I'm not going to flame you but I will say you are missing out. And for the record I don't mind being proven wrong..

If you're really not afraid, then I urge you to participate in a properly done DBT.

tonyb wrote: »

For those of us that have, a good PC will give way more noticeable improvements than your run of the mill power conditioner. Excluding the good power conditioners of coarse from the likes of PS Audio, Running Springs, Shunyata, etc. Your standard fair Belkin, Monster, Furman, are good for cleaning up noise in the signal, and to reduce or prevent surges or spikes. Some do better than others in any event. Even more gains can be had by using both, a good power cord into a good power conditioner. You'd have to be deaf not to hear the differences.

I call BS, plain and simple. If you think a power cord will actually do a better job than even a run-of-the-mill power conditioner, you are just wrong. I'm certain that you would never be able to provide any measurements to support your claims either. Also, one doesn't need to be deaf to "not hear the differences," they just need to be free of delusions (aka placebo effect).

Part of this hobby and I might add the fun part, is tossing out pre conceived notions and just trying different things in your system. You just might find a surprise or two along the way.

I don't have the time or money to waste on something that is pure, unbridled snake oil. I prefer to spend my money on things that actually provide me real benefits.

thsmith wrote: »

Hell, I better call Jud Barber (Joule Electra)up right now and tell him to remove the reference in his PREAMP owners manual, that if you want more bass upgrade to a better power cable.

I have mixed feeling on this guy. Some of the things he says actually make sense, but his power cable claims do not, especially for a low-power device such as a preamp. It's clear he's never had any real training in electronics, since even a basic college-level course would debunk it.

BlueFox wrote: »

Actually, it is the lack of common sense that "dictates that they won't have any real effect". The same thing applies to digital cables. I have upgraded both my power cords and digital cable, and the upgrades have produced obvious, audible sonic improvements. Just because you do not bother try anything, or are partially deaf, does not mean they do not work. Like it or not, once you stop using completely low-end gear, cables can produce audible differences.

No, a lack of common sense is believing in these things. If you even had a basic understanding of electricity or how digital audio actually works, you wouldn't be claiming this. As for digital cables, unless you are running hundreds or even thousands of feet, any remotely decent cable will pass through the signal just fine. Your short digital interconnects aren't going to make enough of a difference to affect the processing in your DAC in any way, shape or form. You're better off not wasting your money on esoteric digital cables, and putting that money towards a better DAC, which actually can make a difference. As for your claims, I also encourage you to do a proper DBT.

Oh, as for my hearing, I actually had a hearing test recently and my hearing is just fine. But, thank you for the concern!

heiney9

Except your strong view doesn't come from any experience, it's just a guess and assumption based on what you've read or interpreted somewhere else. No actual evaluation of your own.

H9

BlueFox

I see Mr. Know-it-all is from Texas. All hat and no cattle.

heiney9

I also find that the people in your camp beefjerky can suffer from the same placebo effect you accuse us of suffering from. Because you believe there is no difference you trick youself into not hearing differences you could be hearing but because of your bias they are completely ignored or passed over as not being there. It can go both ways you know, except no one in your camp ever experiences that (atleast publically admits it). They assume because they can't hear it, it must not exist. It only is non-existent for the person who can't or refuses to hear it.

H9

tonyb

There sure are different levels of enjoyment in this hobby, if you want to call it that even. Some don't see it as a hobby but just a means to an end. They want a system they can turn on when they come home, no muss, no fuss, and sound good. No playing around with cables, conditioners, tubes, vinyl, speakers to match receivers, receivers to match speakers, stands too high, too low, placement, looks, no bass traps, no huge subwoofer the size of a coffee table. To these people, it is not a hobby, they simply have no time or concern over such things....but want good sound. Thats how the HTIB craze started, an all in one solution. Same with AVR's. Only threw experience and trying new things can one appreciate what good sound can be. If your not interested in furthering your concept of what good sound is or can be, then cruising audio forums isn't for you. The high school kid at Best buy will be all you'll ever need. Don't get me wrong, if thats all you'll ever need, rock it then, we all enjoy music in our own way in our own world. Just don't knock those who seek to further their definition of good sound is all I'm saying.

halo71

I am no expert by any stretch when it comes to audio....or really anything! lol And I am not sure what setup that dude has at home that made that comment about the amp. But that is about the same as saying the amplifier in my old Technics receiver (my first) sounds the same as the Onkyo Integra power amp that I presently run. That is pure common sense, there is no comparison. If that was the case, ALL capacitors, diodes, transistors etc. are of the same quality no matter the price. How can someone honestly believe that? Now if you state that as your opinion, or your experience. Then that is fine. But to state that as fact just blows my mind.

Trying different preamps in my set up has yielded vastly different outcomes. Some better some worse. I have an older model Onkyo cd player. Was fairly expensive in its time. I have been running it on a pair of Infinity RSIIIa's. Kinda thought they sounded laid back. Just swapped out to a newer model Phillips player, and damn, they are not laid back at all really! lol

I firmly believe the ones that say it does not matter. Are the ones that do not swap gear in and out of their systems....or try new stuff.

BeefJerky

heiney9 wrote: »

Except your strong view doesn't come from any experience, it's just a guess and assumption based on what you've read or interpreted somewhere else. No actual evaluation of your own.

H9

Basic knowledge in electronics provides me what I need to know about the (lack of) effects from power cords. I don't buy something based on outrageous and fabricated claims.

BlueFox wrote: »

I see Mr. Know-it-all is from Texas. All hat and no cattle.

Yes I am. But, I'm willing to back up my claims. Too bad none of ya'll power cord believers are willing to do the same and join me on a DBT!

heiney9 wrote: »

I also find that the people in your camp beefjerky can suffer from the same placebo effect you accuse us of suffering from. Because you believe there is no difference you trick youself into not hearing differences you could be hearing but because of your bias they are completely ignored or passed over as not being there. It can go both ways you know, except no one in your camp ever experiences that. They assume because they can't hear it, it must not exist. It only is non-existent for the person who can't or refuses to hear it.

H9

I'm more than willing to participate in a DBT with PC's and digital interconnects (or any other audio component). Are you?

txcoastal1

BlueFox wrote: »

I see Mr. Know-it-all is from Texas. All hat and no cattle.

Hey now there are quite a few TX polkies here

heiney9

Except the above casual listeners want to be know-it-all's and tell those of us heavily invested in the hobby with a plethora of experience we are all wrong, yada, yada, yada. That's what I get tired of. I would never tell someone who took the time to explore the hobby, swap some gear, listen semi-critically and still not experience all the nuances this hobby can offer that they were full of crap or wrong or flawed or whatever. It's the ones who never try anything, who never experience anything and only want to stare at numbers on a piece of paper and then say nothing matters that really p*ss me off.

H9

txcoastal1

"The high school kid at Best buy will be all you'll ever need. Don't get me wrong, if thats all you'll ever need, rock it then, we all enjoy music in our own way in our own world. Just don't knock those who seek to further their definition of good sound is all I'm saying."

Well said Tony

Don't piss on my hobby and I won't piss on yours

SDA1C

BeefJerky wrote: »

Too bad none of ya'll power cord believers are willing to do the same and join me on a DBT!

Hold on there bro. I most certainly am willing to double blind test. Secondly, is there not an answer as to why not use at least the same size as the infeed lines? I have visible proof of clearer picture and decreased grain in digital feed with the upgraded cord for my oppo. If what the nay sayers hold is actually true then I suppose there is no reason for Intel to use gold plating and silver. It's just metel right! No differences here:rolleyes:

BlueFox

BeefJerky wrote: »

Basic knowledge in electronics provides me what I need to know about the (lack of) effects from power cords. I don't buy something based on outrageous and fabricated claims.

Obviously, your basic knowledge of electronics is between null and nill. Read it and weep. Of course, your lack of knowledge will prevent you from understanding the issues and details.

"Though there are many sound and visual professionals who report experiencing dramatic differences when replacing stock power cords, there are still skeptics who point to a lack of measurements as proof that no real difference can exist.

Shunyata Research scientist, Caelin Gabriel, has put an end to the debate by revealing not only one -- but three dramatic measured differences between stock power cords and an inexpensive audio-grade power cord."

http://www.shunyata.com/Content/DTCD.html

EndersShadow

I think its time for a Texas DBT meeting with powercords as the main subject.

Lord knows there are like 50 million forum members in Texas :biggrin:

As an aside BeefJerky, are you in the MIT Cable demo? Its free and you could setup your own DBT to prove or disprove your thoughts with real data (provided you dont skew it by inviting all your other copper is copper friends)

BeefJerky

SDA1C wrote: »

Hold on there bro. I most certainly am willing to double blind test.

Excellent! We need to find a time and place to get this going.

Secondly, is there not an answer as to why not use at least the same size as the infeed lines?

Because it's unlikely that your equipment will pull enough current to justify it. As long as you use wire of adequate gauge for your device, you're not going to gain anything by going to a larger gauge.

I have visible proof of clearer picture and decreased grain in digital feed with the upgraded cord for my oppo.

Please present it.

If what the nay sayers hold is actually true then I suppose there is no reason for Intel to use gold plating and silver. It's just metel right! No differences here:rolleyes:

Actually, the primary advantages of gold and silver are their resistance to corrosion. Silver is the more corrosion resistant of the two, but it is also more expensive. Note also that mixing metals isn't a good idea, and can actually make the corrosion problem worse. For example, hooking up a gold-plated plug to a nickel-plated jack will likely make things worse than if you stuck with a cheaper nickel-plated plug. So, yes, there are reasons to use exotic metals in some cases, but it isn't necessarily in relation to electrical signal quality or conductivity.

heiney9

BeefJerky wrote: »

Actually, the primary advantages of gold and silver are their resistance to corrosion. Silver is the more corrosion resistant of the two, but it is also more expensive. Note also that mixing metals isn't a good idea, and can actually make the corrosion problem worse. For example, hooking up a gold-plated plug to a nickel-plated jack will likely make things worse than if you stuck with a cheaper nickel-plated plug. So, yes, there are reasons to use exotic metals in some cases, but it isn't necessarily in relation to electrical signal quality or conductivity.

Nice contradiction, so it's resistant to corrosion but that in no way helps the signal quality or conductivity. A corroded connection is just as good as a non-corroded connection?

You are smarter than the rest of us, that's for certain.

H9

BeefJerky

BlueFox wrote: »

Obviously, your basic knowledge of electronics is between null and nill. Read it and weep. Of course, your lack of knowledge will prevent you from understanding the issues and details.

"Though there are many sound and visual professionals who report experiencing dramatic differences when replacing stock power cords, there are still skeptics who point to a lack of measurements as proof that no real difference can exist.

Shunyata Research scientist, Caelin Gabriel, has put an end to the debate by revealing not only one -- but three dramatic measured differences between stock power cords and an inexpensive audio-grade power cord."

http://www.shunyata.com/Content/DTCD.html

I read that, and there are some very obvious pieces missing from that article.

a) The article seems to make no mention of wire gauges in the article. Obviously a larger gauge wire will be able to pass through larger amounts of current without a voltage drop.
b) He makes no mention of what voltage he is testing at - I would assume either 120v or 240v, but I don't actually know.
c) The current measurements he is making are well above what any home piece of audio gear would actually draw, even for transients. If you piece of audio gear pulled that much current, even for an instant, and even on a 20A circuit, it would trip your breaker. In addition, his graphs don't actually give enough detail in the lower current regions for me to know what is going on in realistic situations.
d) None of this necessarily amounts to audible differences.

Anyone with an ounce of electronics knowledge would be able to see the giant flaws in that article.

DSkip wrote: »

Jerky, just out of curiosity, have you ever sat down and listened with someone who has more "experience" and listened to their critiques? There are things I've learned just from casual conversations that I picked up on after pointed out. It was always there, I just never noticed until it was shown to me. The different "nuances" spoken of are very hard for me to grasp without a little "help".

Yes, I have. But, I also believe in science, and not just what someone claims (especially without any test to back it up).

EndersShadow wrote: »

I think its time for a Texas DBT meeting with powercords as the main subject.

Works for me!

Lord knows there are like 50 million forum members in Texas :biggrin:

Something like that.

As an aside BeefJerky, are you in the MIT Cable demo? Its free and you could setup your own DBT to prove or disprove your thoughts with real data (provided you dont skew it by inviting all your other copper is copper friends)

I would consider it. Don't worry, my other friends aren't into audio or electronics enough to care one way or the other.

BeefJerky

heiney9 wrote: »

Nice contradiction, so it's resistant to corrosion but that in no way helps the signal quality or conductivity. A corroded connection is just as good as a non-corroded connection?

You are smarter than the rest of us, that's for certain.

H9

And you're assuming that a piece of wire will automatically and instantly corrode simply because it exists. There are actually certain factors that have to exist to lead to corrosion. In a reasonably climate-controlled environment (home/office), corrosion isn't really a worry. However, if you are running it outdoors or in a damp environment that can be a different story. In addition, there are certain treatments out there that can be used to remove or even prevent corrosion even in less exotic metals if need be.

halo71

BeefJerky wrote: »

Actually, the primary advantages of gold and silver are their resistance to corrosion. Silver is the more corrosion resistant of the two, but it is also more expensive.

If that is the case why does silver tarnish? Why silver coins crust over in salt water when gold coins don't? hummmm....

Note also that mixing metals isn't a good idea, and can actually make the corrosion problem worse.

Sooo.......alloy's are bad huh? :rolleyes: Think you need to do some reading here.

heiney9

Once again you completely and decisivley talk all around a subject and never ever answer it straight on. You are so busy trying to defend you position you never answer anything completely or even within the same context of your prior post or the question posed. I don't know if you lack of reading comprehension, are ADD, can't formulate the correct response or just want to see your thoughts in print.

It's very difficult to carry on a meaningful discussion with someone that consistently all over the place and never really says anything.

H9

BeefJerky

halo71 wrote: »

If that is the case why does silver tarnish? Why silver coins crust over in salt water when gold coins don't? hummmm....

Tarnish is not really the same as corrosion. However, you are right that it can be an issue. However, mentioning them in salt water is irrelevant unless you plan on running your audio gear underwater. Though, I admit that would be quite a cool setup...

Sooo.......alloy's are bad huh? :rolleyes: Think you need to do some reading here.

If you think that alloys are the same as two metals in contact with each other, you are the one who need to do some reading.

BeefJerky

heiney9 wrote: »

Once again you completely and decisivley talk all around a subject and never ever answer it straight on. You are so busy trying to defend you position you never answer anything completely or even within the same context of your prior post or the question posed. I don't know if you lack of reading comprehension, are ADD, can't formulate the correct response or just want to see your thoughts in print.

It's very difficult to carry on a meaningful discussion with someone that consistently all over the place and never really says anything.

H9

Are you kidding me? I gave a perfectly reasonable answer to your claims of contradiction. I explained why the corrosion-resistance wasn't always necessary or meaningful, including other alternatives. Just because you didn't like the response doesn't mean it's not valid.

heiney9

Tarnish is a thin layer of corrosion that forms over copper, brass, silver, aluminum, and other similar metals as their outermost layer undergoes a chemical reaction.

Corrosion is the gradual destruction of material, usually metal, by chemical reaction with its environment.

Really

H9

BeefJerky

heiney9 wrote: »

Tarnish is a thin layer of corrosion that forms over copper, brass, silver, aluminum, and other similar metals as their outermost layer undergoes a chemical reaction.

Corrosion is the gradual destruction of material, usually metal, by chemical reaction with its environment.

Really

H9

I stand corrected. Thank you.

heiney9

BeefJerky wrote: »

Are you kidding me? I gave a perfectly reasonable answer to your claims of contradiction. I explained why the corrosion-resistance wasn't always necessary or meaningful, including other alternatives. Just because you didn't like the response doesn't mean it's not valid.

You are hopeless, I am done communicating this way with you. Maybe someday we can share a beer and face-to-face will be more meaningful.

H9