'Entry Level' DAC Comparison

2

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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited January 2012
    AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »
    I can't believe I forgot it in the list, but I also have the Schiit Befrost in house and that will be included as well.
    On paper it has all the ingredients to be a front runner in that group.
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  • sucks2beme
    sucks2beme Posts: 5,601
    edited January 2012
    At this point, I'm sitting on the NFB-3. A couple of months ago, this would of been the
    perfect thing. I'm interested, but budget isn't going to allow me to change even if I fall in love.
    Just add a quick test for the main players on the USB, and everyone wins. This is a large grouping, and will help
    a lot of people pick and choose. I just wish they didn't have me scheduled to work , or I'd come over to see this one.
    Better bring a notepad, score on this run-off is going to get interesting.
    "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson
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  • coolsax
    coolsax Posts: 1,824
    edited January 2012
    AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »
    I can't believe I forgot it in the list, but I also have the Schiit Befrost in house and that will be included as well. If I'm being honest, out of the bunch it's the one I 'want' to like the most because it's so damn sexy and look right at home under the Schiit Valhalla amp :biggrin:

    is it the usb version or just the base normal one? either way looking forward to your impressions.
    Main 2ch -
    BlueSound Node->Ethereal optical cable->Peachtree Audio Nova 150->GoldenEar Triton 2+
    TT - Pro-ject Classic SB with Sumiko Bluepoint.

    TV 3.1 system -
    Denon 3500 -> Dynaudio Excite 32/22
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  • AsSiMiLaTeD
    AsSiMiLaTeD Posts: 11,727
    edited January 2012
    It is not the USB version. The guys at Schiit will tell you that the spdif input in their DAC is better than the USB. I don't think they're fully on board with USB, and I was hesitant to buy a USB implementation from someone who's not even fully sold on the technology.
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  • dkg999
    dkg999 Posts: 5,647
    edited January 2012
    steveinaz wrote: »
    Me too, the LP3?

    That would be the one! It's in my office system with my Music Hall TT, Rogue pre, Marsh amp, and Paradigm 20v3 speakers.
    DKG999
    HT System: LSi9, LSiCx2, LSiFX, LSi7, SVS 20-39 PC+, B&K 507.s2 AVR, B&K Ref 125.2, Tripplite LCR-2400, Cambridge 650BD, Signal Cable PC/SC, BJC IC, Samsung 55" LED

    Music System: Magnepan 1.6QR, SVS SB12+, ARC pre, Parasound HCA1500 vertically bi-amped, Jolida CDP, Pro-Ject RM5.1SE TT, Pro-Ject TubeBox SE phono pre, SBT, PS Audio DLIII DAC
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  • coolsax
    coolsax Posts: 1,824
    edited January 2012
    AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »
    It is not the USB version. The guys at Schiit will tell you that the spdif input in their DAC is better than the USB. I don't think they're fully on board with USB, and I was hesitant to buy a USB implementation from someone who's not even fully sold on the technology.

    that makes sense.. didn't realize they were not that on board with it.. yeah likely if their heart wasn't in it, it wouldn't probably be up to what i've heard their par is. slightly off topic, i think at some point i need to order their Asgard as its supposed to go very well with HD 650.
    Main 2ch -
    BlueSound Node->Ethereal optical cable->Peachtree Audio Nova 150->GoldenEar Triton 2+
    TT - Pro-ject Classic SB with Sumiko Bluepoint.

    TV 3.1 system -
    Denon 3500 -> Dynaudio Excite 32/22
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited January 2012
    AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »
    It is not the USB version. The guys at Schiit will tell you that the spdif input in their DAC is better than the USB. I don't think they're fully on board with USB, and I was hesitant to buy a USB implementation from someone who's not even fully sold on the technology.
    Their USB interface looks to be respectable being USB2.0 and async. operation but they are of the mind that properly implemented SPDIF is still superior to USB.
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  • vcwatkins
    vcwatkins Posts: 1,993
    edited January 2012
    Excellent! Can't wait. This is an awesome forum!
    b]Beach Audio[/b]: Rega RP6 (mods) - AT33PTG/II - Parks Budgie SUT - PSAudio NPC * Eversolo DMP-A6 * Topping D90iii * Joule-Electra LA-100 mkIII * Pass Aleph 30 * MIT S3 * Polk SRS 2.3tl (mods) * PSAudio PPP3
    Beach Study: Pro-Ject Stream Box S2 Ultra & Pre Box S2 * Pass ACA * DH Labs SS Q10 * Brines Folded ML-TQWT RS 40-1354 * PSA Dectet
    Beach Master: WiiM Pro * Dayens Menuetto * Zu Libtec * Dynaudio Audience 50
    Beach Den: Bluesound Powernode 2i * DH Labs SS Q10 * Zu Omen DWII * Richard Gray RGPC
    Town Study: WiiM Pro * Chord Qute (Pardo) * Elekit TU-8600 * MIT S3 * Revel M22 * Beyer DT-990 * Shunyata Hydra 2
    Town Den: Music Hall mm5.1se - Denon DL-103r - Jolida JD9ii (mods) * WiiM Pro * Cary xCiter * Rogue 99 Magnum * Schiit Aegir * MIT S3 * Polk SRS 1.2tl (mods) * Dectet * Bottlehead Crack - Senn 600
    Town Porch: WiiM Pro Plus * Sunfire Sig II * Canare 4S11 * Magnepan 1.6 * Dectet
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,965
    edited January 2012
    sucks2beme wrote: »
    At this point, I'm sitting on the NFB-3. A couple of months ago, this would of been the
    perfect thing. I'm interested, but budget isn't going to allow me to change even if I fall in love.
    Just add a quick test for the main players on the USB, and everyone wins. This is a large grouping, and will help
    a lot of people pick and choose. I just wish they didn't have me scheduled to work , or I'd come over to see this one.
    Better bring a notepad, score on this run-off is going to get interesting.

    Do you have the older NFB-3 or the newer 3.1 ? I have the older 3.0 which from what I can tell most seem to like better than the newer 3.1.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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  • sucks2beme
    sucks2beme Posts: 5,601
    edited January 2012
    Older one. Got it off Head-fi used for $252 to my doorstep.
    I don't think it was even fully broken in!
    If you can wait long enough, stuff like that always pops up over there.
    "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,965
    edited January 2012
    Yeah, similiar situation with me too. How do you like it so far ? Definately performs way above the price point imho.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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  • sucks2beme
    sucks2beme Posts: 5,601
    edited January 2012
    Right now, there's a lot of DACS in that 300-500 dollar range.
    A lot of them have a good rep. I think it's more like the whole price point
    performs better than it did a few years ago. It's become normal to get a
    under $1k DAC that performs at least at mid-fi levels. It may become
    normal to get it under $500.
    "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson
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  • AsSiMiLaTeD
    AsSiMiLaTeD Posts: 11,727
    edited January 2012
    Well I got some listening time in this weekend, but didn't get to do the full comparison. It was just too nice outside to be stuck inside so I spent my daylight hours out playing golf. So now we're looking at next weekend before I can give it another go, at least for the full comparison.

    I can tell you right now that I'm able to eliminate a couple from the list based on the listening I did over the weekend. This may work out better anyway, being able to do this in stages and week out a few will allow me to focus better on what's left. I'm ruling out the Cambridge DacMagic, Musiland, and the HRT Streamer. I'll share some brief thoughts on the three I'm eliminating below, keep in mind these are just my impressions.

    To begin with, my actual comparison will be more detailed than the below observations. Honestly, I knew immediately within half an hour or so of each DAC which ones were going in the keep pile and which I was going to rule out, any DAC that there was even the slightest doubt on went in the keep pile for the full comparison next weekend.

    The Cambridge is fairly resolving but has no real sound to it, I guess sterile is the best word I can think of. One man's 'sterile' though could be another man's 'extremely accurate'. I'm sure the DAC is very accurate but honestly to me sounds a little lifeless. I've heard people say this DAC is typical Cambridge sound, but I'd only somewhat agree. I realize that Cambridge gear isn't the most lively stuff out there but I've always found it pleasing to my ears, especially their small integrated and the 840 CDP that I heard. This one just seems to have less energy to the sound. There's less impact than with the other models. With the DAC I preferred the sound using the V-Link converter as opposed to the USB on the DAC, but honestly it was very close and it could have been a slight bias towards the v-link, either way it didn't materially impact the sound.

    I did not care for the HRT at all. It has asynchronous USB and seems to be well liked but I just don't hear it. It's very 'digital' sounding (yes I know that's not all that helpful but it's the best I've got). It's not like there are artifacts in the music or anything dramatic, and it's not really overly bright or anything like that. The instruments just didn't sound real, the soundstage was flat. This DAC sounds exactly the same as the other HRT Streamer that I heard a while back, and I didn't like that one either.

    The Musiland is actually a good DAC at it's price but just isn't quite in the same league as the others. For me there was honestly no obvious sound characteristic or flaw with it like there were the other 2. It's just not quite as detailed and the soundstaging just isn't quite as good as the other models. Simply put, there are things in the recording that I'm hearing with the other DACs that I don't hear with this one. I'm not talking about obvious things like notes but more ambient sounds. When you hit a low C on a piano you not only hear that note but some slight harmonics as the adjacent strings vibrate a little as well, I don't hear those as much in this DAC. I have a recording of the One O'clock Lab Band at UNT from 1992, on track 2 there's a part where I can hear the keys hitting the pads as the sax section plays through a part, and I can't hear that very well on this DAC. If those was the only DAC I'd heard I'd likely be satisfied, but knowing what I'm missing kills it for me.

    I've never really done a thorough review before, and learned some lessons this time around that I'll incorporate in round 2. The main thing is taking note WHILE I'm listening. With the three I'm ruling out the observations were strong enough enough to remember later on, but with the next group I'm gonna need to set up a playlist and take notes with each song on each DAC, so hopefully my next round of observations will be more detailed.

    That's all for now...much more to come later.
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,590
    edited January 2012
    Be checking in at things progress to see what you end up with.
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • AsSiMiLaTeD
    AsSiMiLaTeD Posts: 11,727
    edited January 2012
    I should mention that the V-DAC is still in the mix because I'm familiar with it. I actually still have it burning in and didn't listen to it at all this weekend. I do not know if it will hang with the others, but I am very familiar with it so it may serve some purpose even if it's not as good.
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  • sucks2beme
    sucks2beme Posts: 5,601
    edited January 2012
    Getting a few weeded out helps. It's still going to be a tough round of listening
    Musical Fidelity V-DAC Mk II
    Audio-GD NFB 3
    PeachTree Audio DAC-iT
    Oppo 83-SE DACs
    Schitt BiFrost
    Arcan rDac


    That's a pretty good sampling of the midrange DACs.
    Let the contest begin!
    "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,965
    edited January 2012
    Your thoughts on the Cambridge and the HRT pretty much mirror mine. Be interesting to see the rest of the bunch, so shake a leg bro, inquiring minds want to know.:smile:
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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  • dkg999
    dkg999 Posts: 5,647
    edited January 2012
    For a less than $100 DAC I've always been impressed with my Musiland 02.
    DKG999
    HT System: LSi9, LSiCx2, LSiFX, LSi7, SVS 20-39 PC+, B&K 507.s2 AVR, B&K Ref 125.2, Tripplite LCR-2400, Cambridge 650BD, Signal Cable PC/SC, BJC IC, Samsung 55" LED

    Music System: Magnepan 1.6QR, SVS SB12+, ARC pre, Parasound HCA1500 vertically bi-amped, Jolida CDP, Pro-Ject RM5.1SE TT, Pro-Ject TubeBox SE phono pre, SBT, PS Audio DLIII DAC
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  • radon
    radon Posts: 11
    edited February 2012
    can't wait. at this point, i will bet my money on oppo 83se
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,590
    edited February 2012
    can we get front and back pics of each unit as well :smile: pretty pretty please....
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • Bobsama
    Bobsama Posts: 526
    edited February 2012
    I'm a tad disappointed--you didn't grab a Little Dot DAC_I! Anyways, are you comparing these just on the Beyers & MuFi V_Link or on your Sennheisers & its amp too? Also, have you let the DACs burn-in?

    I was sufficiently satisfied with my LD DAC_I to order a Little Dot MK IV tube hp amp, to go with my Beyer DT880's. I've got the 600-ohm version as well.
    polkaudio Monitor 5 Series II
    polkaudio SDA-1 (with the SL1000)
    TEAC AG-H300 MK III stereo receiver
    beyerdynamic DT-880 Premium (600 Ω) headphones
    SENNHEISER HD-555 headphones
    Little Dot MK IV tube headphone amp
    Little Dot DAC_I balanced D/A converter
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited February 2012
    Did you get my PM about arranging to send the Keces DA-151 to you for inclusion in the shoot-out?

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • PrazVT
    PrazVT Posts: 1,606
    edited February 2012
    I'd somewhat agree w/ your DacMagic evaluation - I've always thought it was a very accurate DAC, but nothing stood out like my W4S DAC. However, I feel that adding the Pangea P100 power supply brought the CA DAC to life - an added layer of detail and a blacker background right off the bat.

    BTW, I saw some mention of the Asgard above - I have that headphone amp + the HD600s and it's a great combo. Finally brought those cans to life :)
    ALL BOXED UP for a while until I save up for a new place :(

    Home Theater:
    KEF Q900s / MIT Shotgun S3 / MIT CVT2 ICs | KEF Q600C | Polk FXi5 | BJC Wire | Signal / AQ ICs | Shunyata / Pangea PCs | Pioneer Elite SC 57 | Parasound NC2100 Pre | NAD M25 | Marantz SA8001 | Schiit Gungnir DAC | SB Touch

    2 Channel:
    Polk LSi9 (xo mods), Polk DSW MicroPro 2000 sub | NAD c375BEE | W4S DAC1 | SB Touch | Marantz SA-8001 | MIT AVt 2 | Kimber Hero / AQ / Signal ICs | Shunyata / Signal PCs
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,590
    edited February 2012
    Are we going to possibly have a weekend update to this thread?

    I know you had a funeral last weekend (my condolences) but was curious about any plans for more DAC testing this weekend, as well as if H9's Keces was going to be added...
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited February 2012
    I never heard from Danny, I wanted to send my Keces to him to include in the shoot out. I sent a PM for his addy to judge shipping costs both ways. I have been doing a lot of research and USB to SPDIF conversion is not ideal so I'm not sure my Keces would be best served since it's USB only unless he has a USB source he can use.

    Hopefully we'll get an update soon. Life I'm sure takes precedence as it should.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,590
    edited February 2012
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Life I'm sure takes precedence as it should.

    Agreed!
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • AsSiMiLaTeD
    AsSiMiLaTeD Posts: 11,727
    edited February 2012
    Sorry for the delay guys, things have been crazy around here lately and some non-essential stuff has been put on the back burner. I should have time this weekend to pick up where I left off and put some thoughts together on these DACs.

    Brock, I see your PM now but totally missed it somehow. I normally get a popup when I log in with a new PM but don't remember seeing one earlier in the week when yours would have been sent. I ended up getting a Keces 151 from someone local here in DFW, is that the model you have or is it close?

    I do have some thoughts already put together on several of these but nothing complete just yet.
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,590
    edited February 2012
    Brock has the 131 which is USB only. The 151 works out better for this shootout since it uses optical and coaxial and they share lots of the same parts as well so it should give us a good idea of the 131s sound.
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited February 2012
    Cool Danny, yes I have the DA-151 MK I -revised with the LM47xx op-amps and coupling caps. The DA-151 MKII uses an op-amp in place of output coupling caps.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited February 2012
    EndersShadow wrote: »
    Brock has the 131 which is USB only. The 151 works out better for this shootout since it uses optical and coaxial and they share lots of the same parts as well so it should give us a good idea of the 131s sound.

    You have the models reversed. I still am a little concerned about how the USB only is hooked up, but you have to do, what you have to do.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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