Pre's and tubes

tonyb

I haven't been up close and personal to a tubed pre for 25 years, Sonic Frontiers was my flavor before marriage and kids came along. Wanting to get more of that tube sound but I need to get straight on a few things since memory doesn't favor age.

Tubed Pre's.....Ok, I don't get a few things. In my day, a tubed pre was built like a brick shithouse, massive overbuilt power supplies, tons of tubes, along the lines of a Cary, the higher end Cary gear. Then you have the Dared 2000a, small, few tubes, do these units really give out that tube flavor of the massive units ? Can't imagine they do, and not knocking the Dared either becouse I never heard it. Is the only difference betwwen a Dared and a tube buffer volume control ?

Tube buffers....Are these just like a pre without the volume control ? Take the Yaqin single tube buffer for example. I mean the guts do really the same thing as a pre with no volume control, correct ??

Simply put, a pre is a simplistic piece, what I don't get is the massive pre's to the smaller pre's of today, what did they toss out ? The huge power supplies obviously, what else ? Just trying to wrap my brain around it is all, because I'm on the fence between a tube buffer, a Dared, or just save the coin for a Cary SLP. Funny, now that I look how I just wrote that, seems to me the tube sound would increase with each one.

heiney9

The Dared is completely different than a tube buffer and plays much higher than it's price point and has TONS of tube flavor and tone. As to how it compares to the bigger, pricier boys I'm sure they do things a little better.

I guess you need to decide a budget and if you are willing to spend upwards of $1K plus another $500 on really good tubes you will have something that sounds nicer than the Dared. But for $1K all in with the best tubes you can have the Dared and I swear it comes close to the other units.

I really thought the Dared was going to be a stepping stone tube pre for me. Something to get my feet wet and move on. Well it's still here, performing superbly.

There are a lot of choices out there and you just have to decide. The Dared should be on you list but if you choose to punch in at a higher price point there are plenty of great units as well

The EE Mini-Max and Belles are two superb units in the $1200-1500 market. Just don't forget to leave some $$$ for tube rolling, because that's where the fun and discovery is, IMO.

H9

george daniel

If you decide on an EE Mini--it would be worthwhile to seek out one with the Tom Tutay upgrades--no remote though.for the price of admission and the right tubes--the Dared is hard to beat.

tonyb

Brock, kinda what I'm getting at. The Dared at 4 bills, and a used Cary at 1500 roughly, what are you getting for that extra coin in the way of SQ ? The price difference is nothing to sneeze at.

tonyb

george daniel wrote: »

If you decide on an AA Mini--it would be worthwhile to seek out one with the Tom Tutay upgrades--no remote though.for the price of admission and the right tubes--the Dared is hard to beat.

I've been reading up on that upgrade, substantial results.

falconcry72

Also look at ARC. You can find some nice ARC units under 1k if you're patient.

FTGV

tonyb wrote: »

Tube buffers....Are these just like a pre without the volume control ? Take the Yaqin single tube buffer for example. I mean the guts do really the same thing as a pre with no volume control, correct ??

The purpose of the tube buffer is basically that of an impedance convertor to ease the demands on the source component by presenting it with a hi input impedance while having a low output impedance and with sufficient current to easily drive the inputs of an preamp/amp etc.So it's doing all the heavy lifting.However the simple tube circuits can inject fair amounts of 2nd order harmonic distortion and increase the noise levels.It's a synergy thing and some may prefer the added warmth resulting mainly from the added even order distortion .It may sound good but it's still distortion.

soundfreak1

h9 is dead on! I've have a couple of friends locally that have replaced Thier much more expencive pre's with the dared after hearing mine. The right tubes are the key! To this unit. With telefunkens tubes I have about 650. In the dared and haven't heard anything worth replacing it with yet! I'm sure they are out Thier I just haven't heard them yet and I'm very sure it would cost at least double plus tubes to beat it.

GlennDog

Can you gents please chime-in on Jolida. I may be able to get my hands on a 502b integrated amp. Will it sufficiently drive SRS2s? Thanks as always!

reeltrouble1

The Dared is a nice entry pre, like other entry pre the capacitors are smaller and of lesser quality, power supplies smaller using shared circuits instead of discreet, circuits are a bit cramped, cheaper film resistors, use of potentionmeter that are noisy, lack of internal shielding, bandwith, and then cosmetic issues and so on. Just depends on what you are wanting the Rig to do and the gear you plan to use with the pre as well as the speaker.

There are just so many nice units available these days, I tend to lean toward proven companies with a history in audio. One thing that has changed from the "0ld school" tube gear is how is was always on the warm side, although it still leans that way there are products available to meet the sound that just about any listener might want.

RT1

tonyb

Point taken Ted, and believe me, I'm all for build quality. Given some reviews here and on other forums, the SQ of the Dared,build quality aside, seems to satisfy alot of folks. I guess I'm asking if spending that extra coinage on the more solidly built units would garner significant increase in SQ ? I do realize this maybe more of a splitting hairs type of thing in the SQ dept., maybe more so of a diminishing returns type of thing. Spending 1000 bucks more to get a few ounces of SQ over the Dared. Not a Dared fanboy, but I can't dismiss the fact that it's liked by so many. Should have jumped on those nice tubed pre's we had in the FM awhile back.

Brocks just gonna have to invite me over to get an ear on his. I have a certain sound signature in my brain that I'm looking for and it's hard to get a grasp on the gear to get there without hearing a few things first. I know, "duh" right ?

Face

Another consideration: http://hollowstate.netfirms.com/

heiney9

Significant increases? No, not until you start to spend big bucks. I agree with Ted in his analysis but the gap isn't that wide until you hit the heavy hitters. The thing about tube gear (and this is in general) is by design function it's a simple piece of gear with simplier circuits than SS. So there tend to be less area's to compromise. I am not sure the exact product Dared sells today, it seems the caps and resistors while up to the task are no longer boutique brands. Mine has nicer caps and resistors than it seems the "new" one are shipped with.

Will the Dared compare against BAT, Manley, Prima Luna, Belles etc. No it won't, but then the for the cost difference I would hope it wouldn't.

I am a very persnickity SOB when it comes to audio and I still am throughly impressed with the performance of the Dared. Dead quite, plenty of drive, not a single audible issue at all. It just depends on what you can and want to pay. I am NOT trying to be a fan boy, I am just trying to get my enthusiasm across. I shake my head sometimes listening to it because it really shouldn't sound as good as it does.

Tony, you are welcome to come anytime and listen and shoot the ****, etc. We are trying to put a meet together after the new year because csmstar01 might be visiting and has been wanting to come down from WI, for quite some time.

H9

heiney9

Also once you find a nice tube pre, the magic is in the actual tubes you decide to roll. With some types this can get pricey very quickly.

megasat16

Hi-Fi requires the word "Hi" before the "Fi".

If you put "Chi" before the Fi, the result is far from Hi-Fi! I would dig 70s Vintage Hi-Fi from my Grandpa stash and play aginst today's tubby Chi-Fi. Enuff said.

Fred, I think the electrical concept of the Tube Buffer is lost by many Chi-Fi owners while touting what Tubes can do. Basically, I think Tubes are used for the lighting!

Happy Holidays and Happy ChiFi Listening, Guys!

heiney9

megasat16 wrote: »

Hi-Fi requires the word "Hi" before the "Fi".

If you put "Chi" before the Fi, the result is far from Hi-Fi! I would dig 70s Vintage Hi-Fi from my Grandpa stash and play aginst today's tubby Chi-Fi. Enuff said.

Fred, I think the electrical concept of the Tube Buffer is lost by many Chi-Fi owners while touting what Tubes can do. Basically, I think Tubes are used for the lighting!

Happy Holidays and Happy ChiFi Listening, Guys!

Nope, I am completely opposite. Most of those vintage 70's gear is only good for a boat anchor. There are some exceptions of course.

H9

tonyb

Cool, let me know when you guys are getting together. Thanks for the link Face, I'll get my read on.

dorokusai

heiney9 wrote: »

Nope, I am completely opposite. Most of those vintage 70's gear is only good for a boat anchor. There are some exceptions of course.

H9

Same here for the most part and I'm not a huge ChiFi fan either. Just because its vintage doesn't make it automatically good, rare and sought after.

reeltrouble1

when "toe-dipping" to try something different in audio there is nothing wrong with and its a solid move to go with something like the Dared or Dodd ELP etc that has a solid following across the board...if I then decide its a path I really want to get into my next move is generally up at least two levels as the budget allows, moving up in increments always ends up costing more in the long run, its one major benefit being experience with a good many designs, the original piece that was purchased as a trial can then be sold at or near the price paid. Again the key is getting something that has the company reputation for service as well as support across the audio community beyond the flavor of the month or year.

RT1

FTGV

megasat16 wrote: »

Hi-Fi requires the word "Hi" before the "Fi".

If you put "Chi" before the Fi, the result is far from Hi-Fi! I would dig 70s Vintage Hi-Fi from my Grandpa stash and play aginst today's tubby Chi-Fi. Enuff said.

Fred, I think the electrical concept of the Tube Buffer is lost by many Chi-Fi owners while touting what Tubes can do. Basically, I think Tubes are used for the lighting!

Happy Holidays and Happy ChiFi Listening, Guys!

James I see you have mellowed some and adopted a more subtle approach.:cheesygrin:

As for Chi Fi certainly alot of junk comes out of that region but there seems to be the odd little gem as well.

heiney9

tonyb wrote: »

Cool, let me know when you guys are getting together. Thanks for the link Face, I'll get my read on.

If an all out gathering never materializes soon, you are welcome to come get your listen on anyway. Our group hasn't meet in awhile because we are all too busy lately to carve out time to get everyone on the same page.

H9