TT questions about distortion?

disneyjoe7

Should a LP get a little distorted on the end of a LP? Sounds ok on the first to third song then gets.....


Should it do that, or something is wrong?

BlueFox

No.

Every LP, or just one LP? Just one LP then it is an LP issue, every LP then it probably is a turntable issue.

SCompRacer

True dat. If it happens with all LP's, I'd first check cartridge alignment.

DollarDave

They can, and you can reduce that with two approaches - 1) Linear Tracking - mimicks the methods that the album was cut with, 2) Proper needle offset and alignment using a simple protractor that you can download from vinylengine.com - opinions differ as to which one to use, but I use the Baerwald with good results on a couple of Pioneer TT's.

Others with more experience with vinyl should have a few suggestions, too.

SCompRacer

Baerwald is the most common alignment method. It puts the null points such that tracking error is pretty much evenly spread across the disc. Steve, what table/arm do you have? Do you have a protractor for it? Is it a P mount cartridge or is it held on with small screws?

If using a downloaded and printed protractor, some have a scale to measure to check that they printed properly.

nooshinjohn

Linear tracking is the only way to fly for me... The only thing I need to set is tracking force, and for my stulus that can be anywhere between 1.8 and 2.7g. My Px3 is the sweetest table I have ever owned and the easiest to use.

disneyjoe7

Well first off George Danial helped setup the cartridge, thank god because I'm a Noob about this stuff. Could it be tracking weight or?


This is the cartridge not sure what this is about the mount?

http://www.needledoctor.com/Ortofon-2M-Red-Phono-Cartridge?sc=2&category=378

quadzilla

Even experienced people can make a mistake. If the alignment is off by just a degree or two, that could easily explain it. And it's damnably easy to let the cart slip by that much while tightening the screws. But in short, the answer is that no, at least generally, there should be no noticeably greater distortion at the end of a record than there is at the beginning if the set up is done properly.

It took me many, many, many tries to get mine right, and then I found out I was still off by about a degree. Once I finally got it perfect, and it does have to be perfect, the inner tracks sound every bit as clean as the outer. I used a Baerwald protractor for Rega arms to do mine.

SCompRacer

The reason I asked about what type of mount is the P mount is plug and play, no adjustment; the 1/2" mount you have is and must be adjusted when installed. Way incorrect VTF or tracking force can cause distortion. Improper bias, or anti skate, would also affect play of all the tracks. However, due to the distortion occuring toward the end of the record, I lean towards alignment. Or the stylus, the cantilever the stylus is mounted on, could be bent. I ain't blaming George, just saying I'd re-check alignment and/or condition of the stylus first.

How do you clean the stylus?

disneyjoe7

I redid the cartridge mount, and moved the cartridge so it looked straight on the alignment device. Then I re-balanced the arm, sounds better... Need to check some other LP to see if it works ok.

rebuy

Records should sound fine at the end unless the tables arm and tracking becomes off at that side of the record.
That is why linear tracking tables are better in general for tracking, no tracking error all over the surface.

In a pivot arm set up there is a certain point where the needle tracks almost perfectly, and at other areas where damage occurs due to the physics. If you have a record that has been played a lot you might be able to hear these distortions.

rebuy

What do you mean, you lined it up by sight?

disneyjoe7

Straight by the lines in the guide alignment.

rebuy

Do you let your LP's cool after playing them?

rebuy

Back in the day when I had many records and knew all that stuff there were papers on letting records cool before a replay to prevent damage to the vinyl caused by heat between the stylus and record. Claims were due to the PSI the needle actually has in the groove, the vinyl gets hot and them needs time to cool before another play to help prevent damage. This allows the grooves to cool and keep their original cutting shape.

disneyjoe7

The problem was with all records old or new, cleaned or not. Learned a few things myself, watching someone like George Danial. Problem seems to be better I also reduced anti-skid weight. Many LP sound ok on the start and the end.

rebuy

If you want to see microscopic views of records and styli go to this site, it's interesting.

http://www.micrographia.com/projec/projapps/viny/viny0000.htm

SCompRacer

Glad to hear you got it dialed in. Not to complicate things for you, but this is worth adding to your cartridge setup knowledge.

"When aligning a cartridge for tangency using any alignment protractor, it is essential to remember that you are attempting to align the cantilever (and, hence, the stylus), not the cartridge body. There is no guarantee that the cantilever is perfectly aligned within the cartridge body, so simply aligning the cartridge body will not necessarily produce the desired result."

What this means is, the cantilever must be parallel with the sides of the cartridge in order to use the sides of the cartridge to align it. In other words, wih a slightly askew cantilever, you won't get perfect results using the sides of the cartridge body for alignment.

If you want to learn more, a helpful alignment page...

http://www.audiophilia.com/features/cartridge_setup.htm

One other thing about way back in the day is VTF, or vertical tracking force, was much higher. You can extract the best performance out of your cartridge by trying different VTF settings, staying withing the manufacturers specifications.

Tour2ma

^ True... but I did not think stylus misalignment to cartridge bodies was a big issue...

Wholeheartedly agree on the need to experiment with tracking force (and anti-skate). Many more LP's have been damaged by too light of a tracking force than by too heavy. It's analogous to the old, misguided belief that speakers were safer powered by under powered amps. Start at or near the upper end of the MFG's suggested range and work down 0.1-0.2 gm at a time. Many arm's tracking force dials are estimates. Not essential, but a stylus force gauge is a nice tool to have in the kit.

One thing not mentioned so far (or I missed) is "overhang". It's undoubtedly part of the protractor procedure, but deserves note since if it's not correct, you cannot avoid misalignment... true even for you tangential-heads out there. After the overhang is set, zero-balancing the arm is the critical next step.

No personal experience, but the protractor mentioned seemed when I looked at it a while back when IIRC SCR mentioned it in another thread. The Geodisk is also a useful tool and still sold by MFSL last I checked. One of the simplest tools was the old AR XA's "alignment arrow". Unfortunately it's specific to the XA/XB arms' geometry (I believe), but it was so-o-o-o-o simple I never understood why the approach was not adopted by all TT/ arm combo makers.

Shure Brothers also sold test LP's once-upon-a-time... Audio Obstacle Course or some such name. They also included them with sale of their TOTL V-15's. I have a couple, and still use them. If you can find a new one, it's worth it under $20 or so, but be leery of used ones as the most useful tracking sections are fairly easily damaged. There are a series of progressively higher amplitude (louder) tracks, and you continuously run through them at lower and lower down-force levels until mistracking occurs. You then revert to the last, successful source level.

The only alignment option caution I can think of is to be careful with downloaded templates as some "change" during the print process.

rebuy wrote: »

Back in the day when I had many records and knew all that stuff there were papers on letting records cool before a replay to prevent damage to the vinyl caused by heat between the stylus and record. Claims were due to the PSI the needle actually has in the groove, the vinyl gets hot and them needs time to cool before another play to help prevent damage. This allows the grooves to cool and keep their original cutting shape.

Thought I was alone here. I posted this years ago at AK and the laughter was deafening. Always seemed plausible to me... at least for 45's on my record player with the penny taped to the head... :cheesygrin:

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

The problem was with all records old or new, cleaned or not. Learned a few things myself, watching someone like George Danial. Problem seems to be better I also reduced anti-skid weight. Many LP sound ok on the start and the end.

So "Danial" ain't just a river in Egypt... :cheesygrin: Sorry... couldn't resist...

Anti-skid is IMO the most challenging adjustment to really "dial-in", but fortunately it's also one of the more forgiving adjustments... if that dichotomy makes any sense. Markings on most arms are an "estimate" at best. IMO anti-skate adjusting is where the Shure LP's really shine. Here again the LP's condition is a factor, but less of a concern than with the tracking force mentioned above. However, you can also make do with a decent, fairly simple mono LP.

One thing to bear in mind is as the earliest replies indicated, the distortion you heard was mistracking and mistracking means "groove damage is occurring". How much damage depends on the severity of the mistracking or repetition of play at a given level of mistracking. In either case the resultant damage can sound like mistracking even after the cartridge is dialed-in. This is the reason that used Shure Test LP's are suspect.

disneyjoe7

Thanks guys, liking this vinyl thing just fine with me. The links are great, and needing to play with it all was a learning curve on my end.

rebuy

Just remember that Needles do wear as do grooves do and it's good to change needles as needed for best sound.

As far as letting records "rest" after playing to prevent distortion, When a needle is riding through the groove the pressure at the needle and the groove can be 250 to 350 lbs. PSI. That makes the vinyl hot.

Fongolio

SCompRacer wrote: »

"When aligning a cartridge for tangency using any alignment protractor, it is essential to remember that you are attempting to align the cantilever (and, hence, the stylus), not the cartridge body. There is no guarantee that the cantilever is perfectly aligned within the cartridge body, so simply aligning the cartridge body will not necessarily produce the desired result."

This is very true. When attempting to mount my Benz Micro Glider M2 after a Soundsmith re-tip the metal screwdriver I was using got pulled hard into the magnet unit on the Benz and somehow moved the cantilever slightly off a perfect straight alignment with the cart body. Now I align with the cantilever instead of the body and I get great results. Thank goodness I didn't do any real damage but I can no longer align with the body. Be extra careful mounting moving coil cartridges! They have very powerful magnets that can attract metal mounting tools etc. Great to hear you're enjoying vinyl now DJ.

marly421

rebuy wrote: »

Back in the day when I had many records and knew all that stuff there were papers on letting records cool before a replay to prevent damage to the vinyl caused by heat between the stylus and record. Claims were due to the PSI the needle actually has in the groove, the vinyl gets hot and them needs time to cool before another play to help prevent damage. This allows the grooves to cool and keep their original cutting shape.

Cooling: I believe its simply folk lore and zero truth in the reality of the real world. I've played many of my albums over and over again (repeat function) and have never ever heard any problems or damage.

Scare tactic's of the audiophile elitist who thinks that a manual only turntable is the only game in town I bet. I've also heard these elitist say they can hear the damage to vinyl after just 10 plays; sorry but I can't see (or hear how) that can be true. I have records that my dad or I purchased and some are 45 years old and my ears surely aren't the same today but they still sound great to me. Pop artists like the Canned Heat, The Association, Grateful Dead, all sound excellent to me and I don't need to look any further than my own vinyl library for fine playing records.

Good equipment, clean records and attention to details, like the cartridge/stylus is the best way to go.

I've found vintage linear tracking tables are 95% junk. Good ideas and cheap construction always fails someone needs. Beside 99% of these, the sellers hasn't a clue how to package and ship one of these delicate units. Try buying a vintage linear tracking table off the Internet! Many of these don't work properly and most folks will not find a service person that will look at it, let alone repair it.