Need some expert help with my 2.3tl's
drumminman
Posts: 3,396
Female vocals just don?t sound right.
On the 2.3tl?s I just acquired female vocals sound thick and slow, as though the artist is singing through a heavy packing blanket into the mic. I haven?t noticed this much with male vocalists.
And some CD?s without female vocalists sound similar with a sluggish veiled quality. Complex passages with many instruments or large vocal ensembles also can sound harsh without clear articulation of each player or vocalist.
I?ve also noticed that on much of the music I have snare drums have a darker quality than with my previous speakers, and yet other instruments, especially stringed ones like guitar and piano, sound accurately reproduced, i.e. with appropriate high end sparkle and mid and low presence. A good tonal balance.
I don?t think it?s the equipment as literally nothing has been changed out but the speakers: same CDP, DAC, linestage, power amp (150 wpc, 45 amps of current), IC?s, speaker cables, a/c power filtering. On a few CD?s (Blood Sweat & Tears 2nd album - recorded in the 60?s!) the imaging is spectacular and the speakers are meeting my expectations.
Things I?ve tried:
Inverting phase at the speaker end. This helped imaging tremendously. My linestage is an Odyssey Candela which inverts phase. I noticed this improvement on my previous speakers as well.
Tweeter check: when I put my ear up to the tweeters, all three in each cabinet are working, with the top being loudest, middle one less so, bottom one less so. MW's all are working as well.
Could the above be a result of aged polyswitches or crossover components, or incorrect internal wiring?
I have components on the way to rebuild the x-overs, plan on replacing the SL-3000?s with RDO-198?s, damp the cabinets and MW/PR baskets with dynamat, install H-nuts and socket head screws to couple the drivers more solidly to the front baffle, and build a higher quality SDA IC.
I'm sure these should sound more consistent than they do. On some recordings they're great, but on too many I'm just scratching my head trying to work out what's going on.
Anyone have any suggestions?
Thanks,
Fred
On the 2.3tl?s I just acquired female vocals sound thick and slow, as though the artist is singing through a heavy packing blanket into the mic. I haven?t noticed this much with male vocalists.
And some CD?s without female vocalists sound similar with a sluggish veiled quality. Complex passages with many instruments or large vocal ensembles also can sound harsh without clear articulation of each player or vocalist.
I?ve also noticed that on much of the music I have snare drums have a darker quality than with my previous speakers, and yet other instruments, especially stringed ones like guitar and piano, sound accurately reproduced, i.e. with appropriate high end sparkle and mid and low presence. A good tonal balance.
I don?t think it?s the equipment as literally nothing has been changed out but the speakers: same CDP, DAC, linestage, power amp (150 wpc, 45 amps of current), IC?s, speaker cables, a/c power filtering. On a few CD?s (Blood Sweat & Tears 2nd album - recorded in the 60?s!) the imaging is spectacular and the speakers are meeting my expectations.
Things I?ve tried:
Inverting phase at the speaker end. This helped imaging tremendously. My linestage is an Odyssey Candela which inverts phase. I noticed this improvement on my previous speakers as well.
Tweeter check: when I put my ear up to the tweeters, all three in each cabinet are working, with the top being loudest, middle one less so, bottom one less so. MW's all are working as well.
Could the above be a result of aged polyswitches or crossover components, or incorrect internal wiring?
I have components on the way to rebuild the x-overs, plan on replacing the SL-3000?s with RDO-198?s, damp the cabinets and MW/PR baskets with dynamat, install H-nuts and socket head screws to couple the drivers more solidly to the front baffle, and build a higher quality SDA IC.
I'm sure these should sound more consistent than they do. On some recordings they're great, but on too many I'm just scratching my head trying to work out what's going on.
Anyone have any suggestions?
Thanks,
Fred
"Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer
Post edited by drumminman on
Comments
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If I were you, I would completely dismantle the speakers and make sure every driver is hooked up correctly per the wiring diagram you can find here on the forum.
Then I would replace the polyswitch with a 0.5 ohm resistor. This was a huge improvement on mine. Those polys can get really abused over the years. -
I hope my stuff arrives in time for me to do some of the work this long w/e. For sure, several of the MW's have been replaced with the correct 6510's. One or more of the tweeters may have - not sure.
I was thinking about the polyswitches too. When I ordered the stuff from Sonicraft I included the 0.5 watt resistors for that reason.
This forum has been really great - at helping me fix/improve Polk speakers and spend money:biggrin: I had pretty much forgotten about the SDA's until I got on Vintage to learn about my RTA 12C's.
Then I got "inspired" :cool:"Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer -
The tweeters sound like they are running fine. The top one gets the most open signal with the other two getting less info as they go down the line. The crossover points are different for all three.
Listening position can play a role in the sound as well. And sonic treatments behind them and on the reflective wall will take a huge leap toward curing that muddy sound.
I would eliminate the poly's myself or in the least replace what you have.
New caps will open up the sound a lot. It will still be mellow but not as thick in the highs and much more open and airy. -
The tweeters sound like they are running fine. The top one gets the most open signal with the other two getting less info as they go down the line. The crossover points are different for all three.
Listening position can play a role in the sound as well. And sonic treatments behind them and on the reflective wall will take a huge leap toward curing that muddy sound.
I would eliminate the poly's myself or in the least replace what you have.
New caps will open up the sound a lot. It will still be mellow but not as thick in the highs and much more open and airy.
It seems to be a problem both with the highs and the midrange. Perhaps the tweeters are not kicking in low enough and there's too much midwoofer. Just guessing here, but that's what it sounds like.
listening position is from a long leather couch centered 10' in front of the speakers.
The room is 16 x 18, with vaulted ceilings 18' at the peak with multiple anngles, open to a hall on the left side (facing speakers) and to the kitchen behind the couch.
No room treatments per se: wool carpet, the aforementioned couch + leather chair, several upholstered chairs to side, large potted plant to one side. The room is not echo-y, but not dead either. I achieved a very good sound with my previous speakers.
Open and airy with that spectacular imaging is what I'm after. I hear glimpses of what these can do."Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer -
Well knowing more about the room makes me feel that the crossovers are indeed tired.
What are you running them with? And do you use the tone controls? I always audition with the controls flat and play from there. I have had to knock down the bass on 2b's because the room they were in.
Also how are the setup? How close to the back wall? I found pulling my SDA's at least 8-10 inches off the wall tightened up the bass a ton. -
Well knowing more about the room makes me feel that the crossovers are indeed tired.
What are you running them with? And do you use the tone controls? I always audition with the controls flat and play from there. I have had to knock down the bass on 2b's because the room they were in.
Also how are the setup? How close to the back wall? I found pulling my SDA's at least 8-10 inches off the wall tightened up the bass a ton.
Equipment: Old Magnavox cdp to Peter Daniels NOS Dac to Odyssey Candela tube linestage to Odyssey Stratos PA w/ cap upgrade. No controls on Candela.
Right speaker 5 feet from back wall, left speaker 2-3' from back wall. Bass tight and tuneful."Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer -
drumminman wrote: »Equipment: Old Magnavox cdp....Right speaker 5 feet from back wall, left speaker 2-3' from back wall. Bass tight and tuneful.
No disrespect but those 2 things seem like bad juju to me...:eek: -
I've found that they female vocals perfectly, so something is wrong.Female vocals just don?t sound right.Right speaker 5 feet from back wall, left speaker 2-3' from back wall. Bass tight and tuneful.
That doesn't compute. The speakers should be inches, not feet from the back wall. Did you mean side walls?
What's the distance between the speakers? Do not toe in the speakers.listening position is from a long leather couch centered 10' in front of the speakers.
Do not damp the cabinet walls with Dynamat Extreme.damp the cabinets and MW/PR baskets with dynamatPolitical Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
SDA setup can be very critical,stating the obvious,are the speakers in the right and left position?
In my hast years ago to hear my first pair of SDA's I had forgot to check the right and left speaker placement...they sounded exactly as you mention...after I realized my blunder,the female vocals were spot on and the soundstage was as it should be. -
Can you take a pic of your setup as it is now?
From the back of the room facing the speakers would be best. -
I've found that they female vocals perfectly, so something is wrong.
That doesn't compute. The speakers should be inches, not feet from the back wall. Did you mean side walls?
What's the distance between the speakers? Do not toe in the speakers.
Do not damp the cabinet walls with Dynamat Extreme.
I agree re: the female vocals, hence the post. The puzzling thing is the speakers are the only variables so I believe it's something there.
The only wall in the room to put the speakers on is either side of the fireplace, in front of it. There are alcoves on either side with one being a little deeper than the other. Distance from side walls is 6-8 feet each side. I thought the bass would be more likely to be affected by this placement, and it sounds fine.
Speakers are 8 feet apart, no toe in. Approximately 8-10 feet from primary listening position which is the couch.
When I crank 'em, I can feel vibration in the cabinets. In reading some of the old posts here I saw that someone coated the interiors with soundcoat, hence the idea of using damping sheets. Would this over damp and kill the bass?
Thanks,
Fred"Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer -
Can you take a pic of your setup as it is now?
From the back of the room facing the speakers would be best.
Not sure the software is compatible with Windows 7, but I'll give it a shot."Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer -
Conradicles wrote: »No disrespect but those 2 things seem like bad juju to me...:eek:
I'm using the exact same front end as before with the only variable the speakers. The cdp is only a transport with a digital out. The Daniels Dac (hand built w/black gates, etc.) has a really clean open organic sound."Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer -
drumminman wrote: »I agree re: the female vocals, hence the post. The puzzling thing is the speakers are the only variables so I believe it's something there.
The only wall in the room to put the speakers on is either side of the fireplace, in front of it. There are alcoves on either side with one being a little deeper than the other. Distance from side walls is 6-8 feet each side. I thought the bass would be more likely to be affected by this placement, and it sounds fine.
Speakers are 8 feet apart, no toe in. Approximately 8-10 feet from primary listening position which is the couch.
I see. All I can say is that as little as an half inch can make or break the sound. Try moving things around, a half inch at a time, including the sofa.When I crank 'em, I can feel vibration in the cabinets. In reading some of the old posts here I saw that someone coated the interiors with soundcoat, hence the idea of using damping sheets. Would this over damp and kill the bass?
Sound coat, yes. Dynamat Extreme, no. They serve different purposes.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I see. All I can say is that as little as an half inch can make or break the sound. Try moving things around, a half inch at a time, including the sofa.
Sound coat, yes. Dynamat Extreme, no. They serve different purposes.
I'm pretty sure that dynamat is a dampener that removes vibrations from whatever it's attached to by converting them to heat. What does sound coat do?"Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer -
Dynamat Extreme (don't use regular Dynamat for anything) is designed for damping metal and with its foil covering would be the last thing you'd want to use on speaker cabinet walls. However, it is excellent for damping metal speaker baskets. Products like Sound Coat, Black Hole, etc. are much better choices for speaker cabinet interiors.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Dynamat Extreme (don't use regular Dynamat for anything) is designed for damping metal and with its foil covering would be the last thing you'd want to use on speaker cabinet walls. However, it is excellent for damping metal speaker baskets. Products like Sound Coat, Black Hole, etc. are much better choices for speaker cabinet interiors.
Or is this a solution looking for a problem in this instance?"Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer -
The problem seems to be resolved. I've gone back and listened to all the "problem" cds and everything sounds as it should - clean and without the thickness, congestion, etc. The only thing I did was reverse phase of the speaker wires on the speaker end.
I'm puzzled why it took a day for things to get sorted out.
Just after I did the above, things improved but I still heard the problems. I had a 3 hour listening session last night (24 hours later) and more this morning and everything seems to be good
Does anyone have an understanding of what happened here? I sure don't.
I want to THANK everyone who responded. Many good suggestions which I'll follow as I start on the tweaks. Sonicaps and Mills arrived yesterday so I hope to get the upgrades mostly completed this long weekend. Still waiting on the 198s.
Everyone have a great 4th!"Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer
