Need power for the Monitor 70's

dnoyeB

Geoff4rfc wrote: »

Don't you think you're contradicting yourself a bit here? The whole purpose of bi-amping in the first place is to make an attempt to improve "sound quality" by feeding more power from an external amp. In this case, and please correct me if I'm wrong, you're only bi-amping off your own avr by combining the back surround channels with your front channels which is intended to "separate" power delivery to the tweeter and woofer, not increase it. In any case, it's all about improving sound quality, not increasing power or watts, in order to do that, you would need to add a "power" amp to increase the wattage to drive a power hungry speaker.

I think mdaudioguy said it best, you should have backed away from this gracefully.

I am talking about power. Whether that gets you increased "quality" or not is a different argument. I am only stating that you can increase the power delivered to a given speaker with an Onkyo HT-RC270 by bi-amping with the AVR alone.


You on the other hand are implying this
1. AVRs are all designed to deliver full power into the L&R channels.
2. Any additional channels activated withdraw power from the L&R channels.
3. Any additional channels deactivated allow that power to return to the L&R channels.

Please say yes so we can agree to disagree.

Upstatemax

Once again...

Please look into bench testing an AVR. Its a fact that published output is with at most two channels driven at the same time. Once our start adding more channels, the power output per channel drops.

Matter of fact just look at Onkyo for the information. It clearly states that the rated power of 100w per channel is with only two channels driven...

http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=HT-RC270&class=Receiver&p=s

Geoff4rfc

dnoyeB wrote: »

You on the other hand are implying this
1. AVRs are all designed to deliver full power into the L&R channels.
2. Any additional channels activated withdraw power from the L&R channels.
3. Any additional channels deactivated allow that power to return to the L&R channels.

Please say yes so we can agree to disagree.

Yes. And didn't you imply in another thread that you are an electrical engineer? Are you gainfully employed?

Upstatemax wrote: »

Once again...

Please look into bench testing an AVR. Its a fact that published output is with at most two channels driven at the same time. Once our start adding more channels, the power output per channel drops.
Matter of fact just look at Onkyo for the information. It clearly states that the rated power of 100w per channel is with only two channels driven...
http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=HT-RC270&class=Receiver&p=s

Thank you

JHucke

well thanks everyone who tried to answer my question and didn't get into a fit over bi-amping etc.... It all helped I'm going to go ahead with the 70's and if I need an external amp, then so be it.

mdaudioguy

Enjoy! Be sure to let us know how it works out. Did you acquire the 3490, too?

Geoff4rfc

JHucke wrote: »

well thanks everyone who tried to answer my question and didn't get into a fit over bi-amping etc.... It all helped I'm going to go ahead with the 70's and if I need an external amp, then so be it.

Right on dude, sorry about us drama queens and our "bi-amping" point of views. My AVR is rated at 135 watts with 2 channels driven. I'm running a 7.2 system and seem to have quite a bit of power to bring out some pretty great sound from my 70's.

I'm missing something from my music, I don't know if it's the fact that I'm not using speakers that cost over a thousand each or what, so I'll be in the position to try out an amplifier here pretty soon and see if that makes any difference in my set up. I'll be sure to post results.

Congrats on your new set up.

dnoyeB

Geoff4rfc wrote: »

Yes. And didn't you imply in another thread that you are an electrical engineer? Are you gainfully employed?



Thank you

Yep. Plus i work on battery chargers so I have some knowledge about delivering power. But this is not a question about how things can be, its about how the amps actually are designed. I don't know as i haven't opened mine. I'm just rationalizing on why AVR advertise bi-Amping. Why they write software for it. And why I hear a difference.

tonyb

dnoyeB wrote: »

Yep. Plus i work on battery chargers so I have some knowledge about delivering power. But this is not a question about how things can be, its about how the amps actually are designed. I don't know as i haven't opened mine. I'm just rationalizing on why AVR advertise bi-Amping. Why they write software for it. And why I hear a difference.

You beleive everything in advertisements ?
What software is written for this bi-amp feature ?
Not questioning if you hear a difference or not, you very well may, so rock on if it works for ya.

An avr is designed to share power from one power source into 2-7 channels, generally speaking. Since you work on battery chargers, how well would one charger work on 5 batteries charging at the same time ? Avr marketing is more focused on the bells and whistles, gimmicks like bi-amping are just another marketing tool to get a customer to look at their product. Maybe read up alittle on how avr's distribute power instead of takeing our word for it. I can't flat out say there is no benefit, because it all depends on the receiver, and it's build quality, power supply, But low to midline receivers have a pretty weak power supply.

dnoyeB

tonyb wrote: »

You beleive everything in advertisements ?
What software is written for this bi-amp feature ?
Not questioning if you hear a difference or not, you very well may, so rock on if it works for ya.

In my Onkyo there is a menu option to enable bi-amping. Once you do, instead of rear channel audio going out the rear channel, its L&R audio. Software was written for that.

tonyb wrote: »

An avr is designed to share power from one power source into 2-7 channels, generally speaking. Since you work on battery chargers, how well would one charger work on 5 batteries charging at the same time ? Avr marketing is more focused on the bells and whistles, gimmicks like bi-amping are just another marketing tool to get a customer to look at their product. Maybe read up alittle on how avr's distribute power instead of takeing our word for it. I can't flat out say there is no benefit, because it all depends on the receiver, and it's build quality, power supply, But low to midline receivers have a pretty weak power supply.

I agree in general. Specifically for the Onkyo HT-RC270, it does something.

mdaudioguy

So, the HT-RC270 must be one special unit...

Geoff4rfc

dnoyeB wrote: »

I am talking about power. Whether that gets you increased "quality" or not is a different argument. I am only stating that you can increase the power delivered to a given speaker with an Onkyo HT-RC270 by bi-amping with the AVR alone.


You on the other hand are implying this
1. AVRs are all designed to deliver full power into the L&R channels.
2. Any additional channels activated withdraw power from the L&R channels.
3. Any additional channels deactivated allow that power to return to the L&R channels.

Please say yes so we can agree to disagree.

dnoyeB wrote: »

Why they write software for it. And why I hear a difference.

Wow, you really seem to be missing a couple of voltage regulators.

Here's what Onkyo says about your specific AVR:
100 W + 110 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz,
0.08%, 2 channels driven, FTC)

120 W (8 ohms, 1 ch)

So you see, even the manufacturer says more power with less channels driven, less power with more channels driven.......whether you're bi-amping with the rear channels or not.

Now you can contact Onkyo and tell them that you agree to disagree.

ben62670

mdaudioguy wrote: »

Knock, knock.

Who's there?





Cables!

dnoyeB

Geoff4rfc wrote: »

Wow, you really seem to be missing a couple of voltage regulators.

Here's what Onkyo says about your specific AVR:
100 W + 110 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz,
0.08%, 2 channels driven, FTC)

120 W (8 ohms, 1 ch)

So you see, even the manufacturer says more power with less channels driven, less power with more channels driven.......whether you're bi-amping with the rear channels or not.

Now you can contact Onkyo and tell them that you agree to disagree.

1 channel = 120W total
2 channels = 200W total (not 2 x 120W)

This is actually more total power out with more channels. But I think I can rationalize your position now.

If the maximum for a channel is 120W, and as soon as you add a 2nd channel you can't hit that maximum, you must therefore be hitting the PSU maximum. Thus, the apparent maximum of the PSU is 200W. If that's true, adding new channels won't get you any more power. So I see the position you are trying to put forward. I guess the question is, "is the PSU limit really 200W?" And is this 1 channel 120W limit really the same as the rating of 2 channels (what do they mean by "dynamic" power).

wutadumsn23

ben62670 wrote: »

Cables!

Lol, figured that was coming. Man, my brain hurts after reading this thread, I thought I answered his questions pretty well, didn't realize the can of worms I was opening. Hope everything is working and you can read between the lines in this thread.

-Jeff

Geoff4rfc

Geoff4rfc wrote: »

I'm missing something from my music, I don't know if it's the fact that I'm not using speakers that cost over a thousand each or what, so I'll be in the position to try out an amplifier here pretty soon and see if that makes any difference in my set up. I'll be sure to post results.
Congrats on your new set up.

Sweet, as promised, I'll drop a note about adding more power to the 70's and I promise not to mention the name Emotiva :eek:

So I've added an external three channel, 200W per channel amp to my 807. The very first thing I noticed, my surrounds perked up, don't know if you want to call it clarity, definition etc etc or what, but noticed a better sound right out of the box which caught me off guard, 'cause I was paying attention to what the 70's were going to do.

While in 2 channel mode and running pure audio from the 807, I notice that I can feed more volume into the 70's and the sound is very clean. It gives the impression that too much just isn't enough.

This new amp turns out to be a solid purchase, I'd do it again.

Tune in next time when I muster up words like, XPA-3 and world class in the same sentence :biggrin: JK, it's just another power source feeding extra power to my front stage and I'm diggn' it.