Hitmaster/signal loss due to daisy chain

SDA1C

Hello,

In my attempts to avoid the costs of a mixer board I seem to have encountered a snag(imagine that).

Does the Hitmaster amplify the low level signal on the line out circuit or will the signal continue to degridate as it gets passed down the chain?

If it does degridate is there a combined cable length between units that would retain the best level of signal?

How many Hitmasters can I have in line before I'll notice a loss of performance?

I would like to have 4 Hitmasters on the same line, two at 25 ft and two at 50 ft, with the same signal.

Lastly(thanks for your patience), Does anyone on here build 1/4 phone male to dual rca snakes? If not are there any suggestions as to where to buy the bulk cable and appropriate jacks (of good quality) to build one my self?

Thanks again, 1C

RuSsMaN

You can get whatever cables and connections you need at www.partsexpress.com. You aren't going to loose enough to worry about, do you know the line output voltage of your source?

Cheers,
Russ

SDA1C

Yes, the balance is 0~400mV and the unbalance is 0~200mV.

I'm also trying to incorporate a quick change in the cabling from 1/4 mixed line out to PDI attenuator, from xlr out to 4 way xlr splitter to dual rca plug to Hit master. Or individual line out xlr from unmixed source to rca plug to Hitmaster. Ultimately I'll need the PDI only if I send the same signal to all Hits. If I send 4 unmixed signals I figure the line pre amps will handle the distance....No?

TECHNOKID

SDA1C wrote: »

Yes, the balance is 0~400mV and the unbalance is 0~200mV.

I'm also trying to incorporate a quick change in the cabling from 1/4 mixed line out to PDI attenuator, from xlr out to 4 way xlr splitter to dual rca plug to Hit master. Or individual line out xlr from unmixed source to rca plug to Hitmaster. Ultimately I'll need the PDI only if I send the same signal to all Hits. If I send 4 unmixed signals I figure the line pre amps will handle the distance....No?

RuSsMaN wrote: »

You can get whatever cables and connections you need at www.partsexpress.com. You aren't going to loose enough to worry about, do you know the line output voltage of your source?

Cheers,
Russ

With pro PA systems (XLR connections, IMO would be worse with RCA connections), we have noticed that with lenght and addition of powered speakers there in fact lost of power which we can correct by increasing the volume at the speakers at the end of the chain (IE: Spr#1 = 50%, Spkr#2 = 75% gain while Spkr# would be 100% gain... however not recommended). Another way to work this out (when talking about mono spkrs) is to split the speakers between left and right outputs. If I were to use multiple HM, I would ''Y'' the input of each HM to make them mono and use let's 2 on left and 2 on right side.

RuSsMaN

What? Really? He's hooking up Hitmaster's to a Vocopro 5800...... Am I missing the rocket science here?

SDA1C

I know Russ ...LOL thats what I thought till I spent 2 hrs @ The Guitar Center dealing with line loss and 4 way splitters that dont exist.

The Vocopro 5800 has only one mixed out that happens to be 1/4 and half the line voltage of the singles. The only line amps or PDI's are 1/4 in and xlr out.(at least that I've found)

When its all said and done its going to be [1/4 to 1/4(1), xlr to 1/4(2), 1/4 to rca 4way(3), 4 way to rca run(7) and rca to rca at the HM((11)] eleven connections...yuk!.

So I think what Technokid is saying (please correct me if im wrong) is the cleaner connection would be split at the voco 2 ways and then daisy left and daisy right instead of splitting 4 ways at the initial 1/4...right?

Heres what I've done so far...I have (4) 25ft runs of RCA IC's. (2) 1 male to 2 female RCA splitters. (1) 1/4 to 2 female RCA splitter. I split the source, convert to RCA then daisy off each left and right (though its actually mono signal).

This way I have two single daisy, not a run of 4, and I wont have to make up any patch cables all while keeping the connections to a minimum.

This will omit the PDI and I'll have to get creative later if I need single signal to each HM but that will be as simple as xlr to RCA.

Man I hope this is right HaHa!

Thanks, 1C

SDA1C

OK scratch the Hitmasters (I'll keep them thanks cause they rock ****!) as a viable option to drown the crowd in the gym. So it has come to a PA/Live sound package. Any suggestions lol(dumb question) on how to knock the smile off of 15to18 hun on an all inclusive package that will snuff the crowd?

I know..tell them to STFU right. Yea me too! But the wife is nice and all that...I bought her a police issue megaphone but she doesnt want to be obnoxious she wants to be able to make em' bleed! lol. I know a badass PA will do that for her so please help!

Thanks,1C

SDA1C

Problem solved!

(2) QSC k12
(2) Shure Beta58
(1) American Recorder spl 8810
(1) Yamaha MG 124 CX

All cables and cords.

That'll do the trick I'd say Thanks for the input folks.

1C

dorokusai

You shouldn't experience a loss in performance since the signal is replicated by each unit.

SDA1C

Actually Mark there was a difference.

I can measure it out if you want but I don't think you'll find it necessary(please lol). After the second, There is notable degradation in signal pass through. Enough that the first had to be volumed down respectively as stated earlier. I did some testing and found they don't work well as a chain of more than 2. Doesn't seem to be a big issue in stereo application such as mine since I put 2 on either side but if you line them out 4 in a row it's a pretty nasty signal on the 4th. I tried to daisy 4 with an Ipod, but found a mixer was necessary to get anything close to the performance of the first in line by its self with 2 per side as the max before total melt down.

I understand it's supposed to be able to but there's a lot of stuff that looks good on paper.

My .02

1C

dorokusai

SDA1C wrote: »

Actually Mark there was a difference.

I can measure it out if you want but I don't think you'll find it necessary(please lol). After the second, There is notable degradation in signal pass through. Enough that the first had to be volumed down respectively as stated earlier. I did some testing and found they don't work well as a chain of more than 2. Doesn't seem to be a big issue in stereo application such as mine since I put 2 on either side but if you line them out 4 in a row it's a pretty nasty signal on the 4th. I tried to daisy 4 with an Ipod, but found a mixer was necessary to get anything close to the performance of the first in line by its self with 2 per side as the max before total melt down.

I understand it's supposed to be able to but there's a lot of stuff that looks good on paper.

My .02

1C

I believe you, just going off what I experienced as well with a 3 HM setup. I would absolutely be intersted in that information, thanks very much. This is important stuff to know and let everyone know, including Polk. We'll figure out what's going on and post it as such.

Mark

SDA1C

Yea. I was hoping for a lossless pass through. Just didn't work our that way. I could set them up in the next week or so and check spl on down the line. The wife needs the QSC rig ready for the xmas program and that would be a good time to play. I'll get back when I have the numbers.

1C

dorokusai

SDA1C wrote: »

Yea. I was hoping for a lossless pass through. Just didn't work our that way. I could set them up in the next week or so and check spl on down the line. The wife needs the QSC rig ready for the xmas program and that would be a good time to play. I'll get back when I have the numbers.

1C

Ok, sounds great. You can hit me up offline at the Polk email, which is linked on my name. Call me direct if you want as well but we'll handle that offline.

Mark

SDA1C

Thanks Mark,

Let me get some numbers to talk about and I sure will.

1C

TECHNOKID

SDA1C wrote: »

Actually Mark there was a difference.

I can measure it out if you want but I don't think you'll find it necessary(please lol). After the second, There is notable degradation in signal pass through. Enough that the first had to be volumed down respectively as stated earlier. I did some testing and found they don't work well as a chain of more than 2. Doesn't seem to be a big issue in stereo application such as mine since I put 2 on either side but if you line them out 4 in a row it's a pretty nasty signal on the 4th. I tried to daisy 4 with an Ipod, but found a mixer was necessary to get anything close to the performance of the first in line by its self with 2 per side as the max before total melt down.

I understand it's supposed to be able to but there's a lot of stuff that looks good on paper.

My .02

1C

This is like any powered speakers.

1. The mixer is needed to increase the level (pre-amp) before it hits the actual amp otherwise the signal degrades.

2. Long cable lenghts are also an issue as you loose power at every daisy chaining stage.

3. Since the HM are unbalanced amp the lost is even more evident since it does not benifit from the gain that balance connection provides.


You can not go wrong with those QSC K12s, I would even say it is overkill as the K8s and K10s (which uses the same rating amps = 1000 watts). The K8s are decent for an audience of 50 - 75 peoples in a decent size room. The K10 while using the same amp could be used with an audience of up to almost 150 peoples if celing is not too high. The K12 are a killer for larger audience. All of the 3 I've emntioned also has decent bass without the addition of an external subwoofer however, the K12s thrumps the other 2 of course. Just make sure you have a decent mixer (pre-amp) to drive the amp and you could daisy chain them with 100' XLR cables without any issues whatsoever!

Doesn't seem to be a big issue in stereo application such as mine since I put 2 on either side

The most effective way to wire them up for best results.

but if you line them out 4 in a row it's a pretty nasty signal on the 4th.

Too much gain lost.

I tried to daisy 4 with an Ipod, but found a mixer was necessary to get anything close to the performance of the first in line by its self with 2 per side as the max before total melt down.

Pre-amping is a must, especially if you are daisy chaining.

When I did the HM demo/testing, I used only 1 HM, signal straight of TV, Ipod, CD/DVD players. I have noticed the HM gain needed to be cranked up nearly to the max for all of the above. Using a mixer allowed me to adjust the gain level prior to the HM inputs and therefore could use the HM set between 1/4 to 1/2 volume.

I ALWAYS use my small mixer to pre-amp the HM or any powered speakers. I unfortunately only have 1 HM but power the HM from my mixer, and power my M-AUDIO monitors (left to 1 monitor and right to the other monitor) from the HM with decent results. For example, the gaming area is always at the back of the room far away from the majority of the audience during our Xmas parties and during the dinner the large PA was at low level for ambience music and I had complaint from some that the gaming area was overpowering the large PA and it was annoying for some of the diners. During the dance (PA at loud levels) the gamers still had no issues hearing the HM/M-AUDIO at 1/2 level (all; HM and both M-AUDIO were set to 1/2 gain). The mixing console is key in the set-up.

I use the same mixer, HM, M-AUDIO set-up during our outdoor movies in the summer with great results (approx. 10 peoples in a large backyard (deck, pool and all). Again, the mixer is key...

SDA1C

Ahhh Piss! I had a long response and lost it!

I'll get back later....

1C

TECHNOKID

SDA1C wrote: »

Ahhh Piss! I had a long response and lost it!

I'll get back later....

1C

I know the feeling and hate it when it happens.

SDA1C

Sorry man kind of got lost. I think at this point the signal loss is a moot point. The QSC sort of took over lol. Go figure lol. I'll be using the HM now for stage monitors for the back ground music. Is a plan actually coming together? Man I hope so!