My tubes aren't going anywhere!!
Ricardo
Posts: 10,636
Thought I'd share a little story.
I recently got one of those Squeezebox thingies. The Touch. My initial objective was to be able to stream internet radio/Pandora to my 2 channel rig. For those that don't know, there's an incredible selection of good, comercial free music in the big WWW. Not only music; there's talk shows, sports, etc. I feel stupid when I think I paid for satellite radio for so many years.
Anyway, I installed this thing (which by the way gets the music from the source without wires.....so there's no MIT vs Signal vs Audioquest here) and was impressed by the quality of the sound. And this was using the little built in DAC.
So I ventured and set it up to get music from itunes in my desktop. We're talking about compressed files here, M4A, which is the lower quality formats to be used in ipods. Well, who would've thought that it was going to sound this good.....
Next step was obviously to get some better quality, lossless files in the computer. I got Dbpoweramp and started ripping my favorite CD's.
I'm still using the analog outs from the SQB into my preamp, and this is sounding sooooo good. I mean, not better than my Marantz reference player, but not worse either. We're talking about those minor differences, one way or another, that you don't even realize unless you're comparing them side by side. You soon get used to the new sound, a little better or a little worse. Nothing that you would ever miss.
So I'm thinking, this is it. I am selling my BAT preamp and getting one of those Benchmark DAC-Preamps. If it sounds this good with the SQB's DAC, then a dedicated DAC will make it better, plain and simple logic. And I will save some dough.....with 10 tubes in there retubing can get quite expensive. I'm loving this digital world!!!!
Benchmark has this 30 day trial period so I ordered one. Fastforward a couple of days and I'm listening to the squeezebox through the Benchmark DAC-Pre.
Impressive. It really does seem to do everything well. Imaging, soundstage (particularly the amount of depth layers I can hear), resolution, and the bass...the tightest, punchiest bass I've heard through the stereo subs. And it is not adding anything. It's the bass from the recording but presented in a way that made me look for all those tracks where I knew there was plenty of punch. Really impressive.
So I'm in heaven. Or am I. I am listening to this wonderful music, I know everything is right, but it doesn't pull me in. I am really not enjoying it. There's something missing. As brock would say, it's the soul. There's no soul. No air around the notes. No organic component. It's just not inviting. It's lacking that sparkle that makes you just sit and enjoy the music.
The BAT is back in the rig, and although I do miss that powerful bass, I am enjoying the music (and I increased the subs ouptut a couple of notches).
Right now using the Benchmark just as a DAC, and it is a significant improvement over the squeezebox's DAC, but now it's getting it's soul through the BAT. So I'll just return it and get a standalone DAC.
I guess the story is that digital files are good, but you still need the right rig. I was so naive.
Oh, and I sold my Marantz CD player.
If you got here, thanks for reading. I realize it got a tad long.
And for the rest of the old farts out there that are thinking I went crazy going with this thing that gets music files from the computer, via the wireless network (OMG!!) , you need to give it a try. It's still a digital signal just as what you get from the CD.
And the convenience factor is off the charts!!!
I recently got one of those Squeezebox thingies. The Touch. My initial objective was to be able to stream internet radio/Pandora to my 2 channel rig. For those that don't know, there's an incredible selection of good, comercial free music in the big WWW. Not only music; there's talk shows, sports, etc. I feel stupid when I think I paid for satellite radio for so many years.
Anyway, I installed this thing (which by the way gets the music from the source without wires.....so there's no MIT vs Signal vs Audioquest here) and was impressed by the quality of the sound. And this was using the little built in DAC.
So I ventured and set it up to get music from itunes in my desktop. We're talking about compressed files here, M4A, which is the lower quality formats to be used in ipods. Well, who would've thought that it was going to sound this good.....
Next step was obviously to get some better quality, lossless files in the computer. I got Dbpoweramp and started ripping my favorite CD's.
I'm still using the analog outs from the SQB into my preamp, and this is sounding sooooo good. I mean, not better than my Marantz reference player, but not worse either. We're talking about those minor differences, one way or another, that you don't even realize unless you're comparing them side by side. You soon get used to the new sound, a little better or a little worse. Nothing that you would ever miss.
So I'm thinking, this is it. I am selling my BAT preamp and getting one of those Benchmark DAC-Preamps. If it sounds this good with the SQB's DAC, then a dedicated DAC will make it better, plain and simple logic. And I will save some dough.....with 10 tubes in there retubing can get quite expensive. I'm loving this digital world!!!!
Benchmark has this 30 day trial period so I ordered one. Fastforward a couple of days and I'm listening to the squeezebox through the Benchmark DAC-Pre.
Impressive. It really does seem to do everything well. Imaging, soundstage (particularly the amount of depth layers I can hear), resolution, and the bass...the tightest, punchiest bass I've heard through the stereo subs. And it is not adding anything. It's the bass from the recording but presented in a way that made me look for all those tracks where I knew there was plenty of punch. Really impressive.
So I'm in heaven. Or am I. I am listening to this wonderful music, I know everything is right, but it doesn't pull me in. I am really not enjoying it. There's something missing. As brock would say, it's the soul. There's no soul. No air around the notes. No organic component. It's just not inviting. It's lacking that sparkle that makes you just sit and enjoy the music.
The BAT is back in the rig, and although I do miss that powerful bass, I am enjoying the music (and I increased the subs ouptut a couple of notches).
Right now using the Benchmark just as a DAC, and it is a significant improvement over the squeezebox's DAC, but now it's getting it's soul through the BAT. So I'll just return it and get a standalone DAC.
I guess the story is that digital files are good, but you still need the right rig. I was so naive.
Oh, and I sold my Marantz CD player.
If you got here, thanks for reading. I realize it got a tad long.
And for the rest of the old farts out there that are thinking I went crazy going with this thing that gets music files from the computer, via the wireless network (OMG!!) , you need to give it a try. It's still a digital signal just as what you get from the CD.
And the convenience factor is off the charts!!!
_________________________________________________
***\\\\\........................... My Audio Journey ............................./////***
2008 & 2010 Football Pool WINNER
SOPA
***\\\\\........................... My Audio Journey ............................./////***
2008 & 2010 Football Pool WINNER
SOPA
Thank God for different opinions. Imagine the world if we all wanted the same woman
Post edited by Ricardo on
Comments
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I'm with ya baby!!! I haven't gotten there yet...but it's coming very shortly. Superb sound quality along with uber convenience, what's not to love."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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Ricardo, great review!
Interesting. This is something I keep mulling over. Anyone else have similar experiences?..... ><////(*> -
Excellent story and definitely something I can relate to right now. I'll be picking up Greg's (inspiredsports) Conrad Johnson PV-7 in a couple of weeks to dip into tubes for the first time. I'm also currently looking into picking up a DAC for my Squeezebox and source. Another possibility is to replace my source with the Marantz SA8004, which allows you to use the player as a DAC for another digital source - sweet! While I realize that your old Marantz was their reference player and is probably in a different league than the 8004, I'm curious what you thought of the differences in sound between your Marantz and the Benchmark?
FYI, I'm currently looking into the Benchmark DAC, the Wyred 4 Sound DAC-1, and the PS Audio Digital Link III with the Cullen stage III mod, and am probably leaning toward putting a DAC in my system as a component in the chain rather than buying a DAC that will function as a pre as well.
2-channel
Squeezebox Touch| MSB Analog DAC | Audio Research Ref 40 Anniversary Edition| Pass Labs X350.8 | Wilson Audio Sasha 2
Home Theater
Arcam AVR 550 | GoldenEar Triton One | GoldenEar SuperCenter XXL | GoldenEar Aon 3 | JL Audio Fathom F113v2 -
The thing you non-tube guys don't undertand is once you hear tubes you can't go back. You can buy the finest DAC's, cdp's, cables, etc..............but once you get used to that Soulful tube sound and you eliminate it.............it's hard to continue with out it.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
The thing you non-tube guys don't undertand is once you hear tubes you can't go back. You can buy the finest DAC's, cdp's, cables, etc..............but once you get used to that Soulful tube sound and you eliminate it.............it's hard to continue with out it.
H9
That's why I'm building a tube pre.polkaudio RT35 Bookshelves
polkaudio 255c-RT Inwalls
polkaudio DSWPro550WI
polkaudio XRT12 XM Tuner
polkaudio RM6750 5.1
Front projection, 2 channel, car audio... life is good! -
.........and then in my case I have yet to find a current production tube (you know, the cheaper ones) that satisfies me after listening to some of the finest old stock tubes. That adds extra expense as you try to hunt down and find a deal from the limited quantities of NOS available. If they are popular tubes then you pay a lot, but they sound sooooooooo much nicer than anything made today.
Don;t get me wrong, there are some nice current production tubes, but nothing compares to the NOS counterparts.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
^^^^^^^^True, and very unfortunate._________________________________________________
***\\\\\........................... My Audio Journey ............................./////***
2008 & 2010 Football Pool WINNER
SOPAThank God for different opinions. Imagine the world if we all wanted the same woman -
.........and then in my case I have yet to find a current production tube (you know, the cheaper ones) that satisfies me after listening to some of the finest old stock tubes. That adds extra expense as you try to hunt down and find a deal from the limited quantities of NOS available. If they are popular tubes then you pay a lot, but they sound sooooooooo much nicer than anything made today.
Don;t get me wrong, there are some nice current production tubes, but nothing compares to the NOS counterparts.
H9
How do I tell if the tube I am using here is a NOS tube or not? (Post 26 and 27)
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103066
Thanks!polkaudio RT35 Bookshelves
polkaudio 255c-RT Inwalls
polkaudio DSWPro550WI
polkaudio XRT12 XM Tuner
polkaudio RM6750 5.1
Front projection, 2 channel, car audio... life is good! -
tubes and vinyl/digital make the connection-- the SB does not reach out and invite me---too impersonal,,YMMV--I'm just an analog old **** in a digital world.Flyin' mother natures silver seed to a new home.:)JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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I'm curious what you thought of the differences in sound between your Marantz and the Benchmark?
Well, I never compared the Marantz with the Benchmark. When I got the bBenchmark the MArantz was already gone, And as you can see I did not like the Benchmark as a DAC-Pre.FYI, I'm currently looking into the Benchmark DAC, the Wyred 4 Sound DAC-1, and the PS Audio Digital Link III with the Cullen stage III mod, and am probably leaning toward putting a DAC in my system as a component in the chain rather than buying a DAC that will function as a pre as well.
Good call. As you already know I did not like the DAC-PRE option. The Benchmark is a very nice DAC, but there's so many out there. The W4S is apparently good..... Everybody says it's the latest and greatest. I just don't buy that. I am not saying it is not good and I have never heard it, it's just that I don't follow the band wagon approach.
I'm thinking I will get something different. The Stello D100 looks like a nice option. I'm like that. I don't want to have what everyone else has
_________________________________________________
***\\\\\........................... My Audio Journey ............................./////***
2008 & 2010 Football Pool WINNER
SOPAThank God for different opinions. Imagine the world if we all wanted the same woman -
Nice write up Ricardo.
I have my SB Touch connected to my integrated with a modded Maverick Audio D1 tube DAC and it sounds pretty good considering the Maverick was only $200 piece.
I keep looking a my Jolida sitting in the rack that I have not turned on in @ a month. It may be time to move on and get a better DAC and march forward in the digital world. I still have a turntable.:D
As a side note we won a 64 gig iTouch for something and my daughter wants a iTouch for her 10th birthday. Because a 10 year old does not need a $400 iTouch we sent the 64 gig back to amazon and for the same price we can get 2 8 gig iTouch'es, 1 for my daughter and 1 for me which will become a great remote control for the SB Touch.
It sounds like you may sending the Benchmark back, so I will be following your next step.
ScottI like speakers that are bigger than a small refrigerator but smaller than a big refrigerator:D -
MillerLiteScott wrote: »a great remote control for the SB Touch.
I love my itouch. Controls the SQB, wireless music in my car via Bluetooth, Pandora to my backyard (this was before the SQB)....and some cool games too.It sounds like you may sending the Benchmark back, so I will be following your next step.
I am sending the benchmark back only because it's the pre and I can get the standalone DAC for $500 less. But it's a great DAC.
I still have 25 days on the trial period, so my plan is to keep it as much as I can, and compare it with used DAC's from Audiogon. First in line is the Stello D100 Signature._________________________________________________
***\\\\\........................... My Audio Journey ............................./////***
2008 & 2010 Football Pool WINNER
SOPAThank God for different opinions. Imagine the world if we all wanted the same woman -
I love my itouch. Controls the SQB, wireless music in my car via Bluetooth, Pandora to my backyard (this was before the SQB)....and some cool games too.
I am sending the benchmark back only because it's the pre and I can get the standalone DAC for $500 less. But it's a great DAC.
I still have 25 days on the trial period, so my plan is to keep it as much as I can, and compare it with used DAC's from Audiogon. First in line is the Stello D100 Signature.
In your hunt for a nice tube DAC make sure you include the Music Hall dac25.2. I've had mine for about 2months now & it's a marvelous preformer even with the stock EH 6922 tube. I'll be doing some tube rolling shortly which will elevate it's performance even more. And to boot, it has all the connections you'll probably ever need. It's a flat out steal for <$500!"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
I don't need any more stinking tubes. DAC will be SS _________________________________________________
***\\\\\........................... My Audio Journey ............................./////***
2008 & 2010 Football Pool WINNER
SOPAThank God for different opinions. Imagine the world if we all wanted the same woman -
Ricardo, A2 in the RAS group has a Stello D100, bend his ear if you need to. It's a nice sounding dac one that we hope to do a shot out with an compare my modded Adcom and Blake's Musical Fidelity."Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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You would think that somebody would be making tubes like they used to do.
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I've heard only good things about new Genalex Gold Lion tubes."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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How is the Musical Fidelity V-DAC?I like speakers that are bigger than a small refrigerator but smaller than a big refrigerator:D
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Fascinating. If one can afford it, I think having a nice tubed preamp and a DAC with dual output AND an amp with dual inputs (rare I guess) is a lot of fun. At least I think it's going to be; to compare DAC direct (mine is SS), and active tube preamp. Just got a balanced zero neg. feedback tube pre here.
It's so interesting that all this euphonic distortion, or pattern of it, just just sound vaguely "better" to tube users....Ricardo expressed particular nuances. I'm not going to howl ABX? but I just don't think we can chalk it up to "tubes provide a pleasing distortion".
Hiraga's work was actually substantiated imo by that Stereophile article by Keith Howard; I still can't figure out why he completely dismissed his own tests which actually supported the theory to some extent (this was in the "Love my tubes" thread).
Glad you've got the best of both worlds working together Riccardo!For Sale 2019:
Tortuga Audio LDR passive preamp
Decware EL34 amp
Allnic H-1201 phono
Zu Union Cubes
iFi iDSD DAC, .5m UBS, iFI Gemini cable, Oyaide Tunami XLR 1.3M, Oyaide Tunami Speaker wire 1.5M, Beyerdynamic DT1990 headphones, PS Audio P3 power center -
DAC shootout!!!
_________________________________________________
***\\\\\........................... My Audio Journey ............................./////***
2008 & 2010 Football Pool WINNER
SOPAThank God for different opinions. Imagine the world if we all wanted the same woman -
So I'm in heaven. Or am I. I am listening to this wonderful music, I know everything is right, but it doesn't pull me in. I am really not enjoying it. There's something missing. As brock would say, it's the soul. There's no soul. No air around the notes. No organic component. It's just not inviting. It's lacking that sparkle that makes you just sit and enjoy the music.
I had the same experience replacing my tube pre with a SS pre. It actually sounded about the same but left me sitting there emotionless. Weird. I swapped back and forth a few times and thought to myself they sounded the same, why does one give me goosebumps and the other one leaves me staring into space and thoughtless. I don't know. I sold it the next week.Vinyl, the final frontier...
Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want...
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I had the same experience replacing my tube pre with a SS pre. It actually sounded about the same but left me sitting there emotionless. Weird. I swapped back and forth a few times and thought to myself they sounded the same, why does one give me goosebumps and the other one leaves me staring into space and thoughtless. I don't know. I sold it the next week.
EXACTLY. I A/B my tube pre and SS pre all the time and they are similar but the "Soul" tubes seem to add are missing with the SS. I still use both depending on my listening session. I don't like to run the tubes for short periods of time or when watching a movie, etc. So I use both regularly. But for serious sessions or longer sessions it's tubes all the way.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Nice Ricardo!
I've been transitioning in a similar fashion to you over the last few months.. I just a little Netbook (streaming wirelessly from a network HD) usb'd to my Peachtree Nova's DAC. I just added the Dodd ELP pre and I'm loving my sound too. The convenience of the music in addition to little to no audible drop off from streaming .flac's compared to my Denon 2910 playing cd's is a huge plus.
I've been contemplating a similar move to a standalone DAC, since I'm not using the integrated amp or pre anyway..
I'm curious what you think about the Stello, since it the Music Hall, PS Audio DLIII (cullen level 3 mod'd), and W4S Dac-2 are all on my list of potential substitutes..
The only thing holding me back is that i've liked the DAC on the Nova a fair amount, but want to compare it to a high quality standalone (or the W4S Dac-2 since everyone has been raving about it)
Anyway, just thought i'd chime in; in case others were in similar boats
I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on the Stello Ricardo!
Jason2-Channel - So far...
Pre: Dodd ELP
DAC: W4S-Dac2
Source(s): Computer and Denon 2910
Amp: Parasound HCA-1200II
Speakers: LSi9s - Vr3 Fortress Mod -
doctorcilantro wrote: »It's so interesting that all this euphonic distortion, or pattern of it, just just sound vaguely "better" to tube users....Ricardo expressed particular nuances. I'm not going to howl ABX? but I just don't think we can chalk it up to "tubes provide a pleasing distortion".
I have no idea what euphonic means and not sure about the "distortion" part, but pleasing is spot on. I can say tubes provide pleasure to my ears. They could market them as "ear drum ****" artifacts._________________________________________________
***\\\\\........................... My Audio Journey ............................./////***
2008 & 2010 Football Pool WINNER
SOPAThank God for different opinions. Imagine the world if we all wanted the same woman -
Nice Ricardo!
I've been transitioning in a similar fashion to you over the last few months.. I just a little Netbook (streaming wirelessly from a network HD) usb'd to my Peachtree Nova's DAC. I just added the Dodd ELP pre and I'm loving my sound too. The convenience of the music in addition to little to no audible drop off from streaming .flac's compared to my Denon 2910 playing cd's is a huge plus.
I've been contemplating a similar move to a standalone DAC, since I'm not using the integrated amp or pre anyway..
I'm curious what you think about the Stello, since it the Music Hall, PS Audio DLIII (cullen level 3 mod'd), and W4S Dac-2 are all on my list of potential substitutes..
The only thing holding me back is that i've liked the DAC on the Nova a fair amount, but want to compare it to a high quality standalone (or the W4S Dac-2 since everyone has been raving about it)
Anyway, just thought i'd chime in; in case others were in similar boats
I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on the Stello Ricardo!
Jason2-Channel - So far...
Pre: Dodd ELP
DAC: W4S-Dac2
Source(s): Computer and Denon 2910
Amp: Parasound HCA-1200II
Speakers: LSi9s - Vr3 Fortress Mod -
I like the DODD Tube Passive Buffer fed by my Computer into a Modified DAC-60 and awful lot
It makes the Modified LSi9s sing. I can't wait to have the battery powered amp driving them for the real set-up!HT: Ninja Master LSi9s, Ninja Master LSiC, Slightly Modded LSiFXs, Modded LSi7s, Outlaw LFM-1 EX and Polk PSW125
Outlaw 970 Preamp, Outlaw 7700 Amp, Velodyne SMS-1, Oppo BDP-83,
2 APC H-15s and a Panamax 5400 for good measure
Stereo: DIY Alix Music Server, DODD Audio Battery Tube Buffer, Modded DAC-60 and MF V-Link (for now), DIY Silver ICs, Battery Powered Class D SDS-254 Amp, and GR-Research N2X Speakers -
(or the W4S Dac-2 since everyone has been raving about it)
Probably the reason I did not put it on my list. I'm sure it's a great product....but geeez....enough with the band wagon...I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on the Stello Ricardo!
I like it. It does get very hot, but shouldn't be a surprise considering its push-pull class A outputs.
Sounds very analog. Smooth and yet very detailed and authoritative. Very, very nice.
So far I've used only the non upsampling option. It can also be set for upsampling to 24/96 or 24/192
Sounds like a winner._________________________________________________
***\\\\\........................... My Audio Journey ............................./////***
2008 & 2010 Football Pool WINNER
SOPAThank God for different opinions. Imagine the world if we all wanted the same woman -
doctorcilantro wrote: »It's so interesting that all this euphonic distortion, or pattern of it, just just sound vaguely "better" to tube users....Ricardo expressed particular nuances. I'm not going to howl ABX? but I just don't think we can chalk it up to "tubes provide a pleasing distortion".
I think its the lack of intermodulation distortion with tubes, not the addition (as many believe) of harmonic distortion.
madmaxVinyl, the final frontier...
Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... -
i'm luvin my 'box!:D pain in de **** getting the cd's loaded..but the wealth of new material available thru internet radio is incredible..i think it sounds better than my cd player..it's more alive..the soundstage is wider..the sda is happening more..i find it more engaging...plus, i don't have to get up and change music...i'm very pleased:cool:
it took along time for me to pull the trigger..i was very skeptical that a wireless router could deliver good sounding music to my afflicted ears. well, i'm amazed:p -
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