Is there any point buying a powerful amp for low volume listening?

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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 34,913
    edited June 2010
    But I guess the question is how many $ per microFarad... :-)

    Look, these were 140 bucks, the pair, restored. Yes, they're from Radio Shack (ca. 1958). No boutique parts (no such thing as a boutique 6V6!). 10 watts each. Come over and listen to 'em sometime...

    P1040226.jpg
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  • lanchile
    lanchile Posts: 560
    edited June 2010
    Face wrote: »
    My DAC has more filter capacitance than your amp. :D

    Really? and what "QUALITY" are those caps that you are using in your DAC.
    Because for 100 watts RMS 40,000uf is not bad at all.
    I say these Because I have seen amps using a lot capacitance in their power supply but those caps are the cheapest and high ESR. it is like those DJ's amps that are 2,000 watts but again the quality parts and sound are low.;)
    Make it simple...Make it better!
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited June 2010
    http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/site/74030/117839/shopping/shopping-view.html?pid=457975&b_id=&find_groupid=18157

    Here are some internal shots: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/wyred4/dac_2.html
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • lanchile
    lanchile Posts: 560
    edited June 2010
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    But I guess the question is how many $ per microFarad... :-)

    Look, these were 140 bucks, the pair, restored. Yes, they're from Radio Shack (ca. 1958). No boutique parts (no such thing as a boutique 6V6!). 10 watts each. Come over and listen to 'em sometime...

    P1040226.jpg

    I like tube sound! The bad thing is every now and then you have to calibrate those fellas to get the best of them. But they distort in a better way than transistor amps.
    Make it simple...Make it better!
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,650
    edited June 2010
    lanchile wrote: »
    I went to the oscilloscope test with a friend of mine.
    While that will let you look at the waveform of an amp but without a distortion anylizer you can't compare things like THD,IMD and S/N ratio.(Not to say these spec's necessarily have a correlation to sound quality.)
    the caps are Mundorf caps costing about $240
    I wasn't aware that Mundorf produced large value filter caps.
    and the transformers I use are high quality toroidal (made here USA)
    Bryston, Pass Labs (and a number of others)source their toroids from the Canadian company Plitron who are considered to be at the leading edge of transformer design as it relates to audio.
    it is not just power! the most important thing is they sound beautiful
    Agreed sound quality trumps power.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 51,668
    edited June 2010
    Pics or it didn't happen.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,650
    edited June 2010
    F1nut wrote: »
    Pics or it didn't happen.
    Huh?:confused:
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  • lanchile
    lanchile Posts: 560
    edited June 2010
    FTGV wrote: »
    While that will let you look at the waveform of an amp but without a distortion anylizer you can't compare things like THD,IMD and S/N ratio.(Not to say these spec's necessarily have a correlation to sound quality.)I wasn't aware that Mundorf produced large value filter caps. Bryston, Pass Labs (and a number of others)source their toroids from the Canadian company Plitron who are considered to be at the leading edge of transformer design as it relates to audio.Agreed sound quality trumps power.

    Well, I used Mundorf caps for power supply only. and some black gate on the input signal and some Sonic caps too. the other test I left it to Anthony Halton. I have worked with plitron too but, I prefer this custom build transformers even though they are more expensive. Check some diy amps that will beat many "commercial" amps. and with some knowledge anyone can do it too! as you can see here NOT dsp or unnecessary gadgets as simple as posible but the design is excellent. Can it use better parts? sure! But I guess it is all up to the builder and the wallet!
    Make it simple...Make it better!
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  • Hawkeye
    Hawkeye Posts: 1,313
    edited June 2010
    OK, Lanchile, if you spent $900 for parts and have the skills to assemble it correctly, your money ahead. If you don't, one has to pay for the labor, normally what, three times the price of the parts? So your talking $2700. For many here, that is a ton of cash.

    Besides, the OP was talking about buying an amp, not building one!:D

    Gordon
    2 Channel -
    Martin Logan Spire, 2 JL Audio F112 subs
    McIntosh C1000 Controller with Tube pre amp, 2 MC501 amplifiers, MD1K Transport & DAC, MR-88 Tuner
    WireWorld Eclipse 6.0 speaker wire and jumpers, Eclipse 5^2 Squared Balanced IC's. Silver Eclipse PCs (5)
    Symposium Rollerblocks 2+ (16)Black Diamond Racing Mk 3 pits (8)
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 51,668
    edited June 2010
    Labor is just the tip. Add in marketing, building lease, advertising, insurance, etc., etc.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • lanchile
    lanchile Posts: 560
    edited June 2010
    Hawkeye wrote: »
    OK, Lanchile, if you spent $900 for parts and have the skills to assemble it correctly, your money ahead. If you don't, one has to pay for the labor, normally what, three times the price of the parts? So your talking $2700. For many here, that is a ton of cash.

    Besides, the OP was talking about buying an amp, not building one!:D

    Gordon

    Good point there! I guess they have to make some BIG money too right.
    But even though they charge 3k. you DO NOT get what you are paying for!. people should get more for their money. let's look at it this way other companies should "copy" Polk. you get excellent speakers for your money but. other x companies charge double or triple for same thing or worse.same thing is for amps.
    Make it simple...Make it better!
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  • Hawkeye
    Hawkeye Posts: 1,313
    edited June 2010
    We'll have to agree to disagree:D I certainly don't feel I did not get what I paid for. While some may not care for my line of gear, I do and it was worth every cent.

    Gordon
    2 Channel -
    Martin Logan Spire, 2 JL Audio F112 subs
    McIntosh C1000 Controller with Tube pre amp, 2 MC501 amplifiers, MD1K Transport & DAC, MR-88 Tuner
    WireWorld Eclipse 6.0 speaker wire and jumpers, Eclipse 5^2 Squared Balanced IC's. Silver Eclipse PCs (5)
    Symposium Rollerblocks 2+ (16)Black Diamond Racing Mk 3 pits (8)
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  • kawizx9r
    kawizx9r Posts: 5,150
    edited June 2010
    What you're saying doesn't only apply to audio.............................trust me we would all like more for our money.
    Truck setup
    Alpine 9856
    Phoenix Gold RSD65CS

    For Sale
    Polk SR6500
    Polk SR5250
    Polk SR104


    heiney9 wrote: »
    Any clue how to use the internet? Found it in about 10 sec.
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  • lanchile
    lanchile Posts: 560
    edited June 2010
    kawizx9r wrote: »
    What you're saying doesn't only apply to audio.............................trust me we would all like more for our money.

    yeah, you are 100% right! even with my cable bill gets $140 and I do not have all the channels I want lol.
    Make it simple...Make it better!
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 51,668
    edited June 2010
    While I am a firm believer in quality parts I also know that circuit design plays a huge role in the final sound. Therefore, I will have to disagree with your notion that using only the best parts will result in great sound.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,650
    edited June 2010
    lanchile wrote: »
    Check some diy amps...
    Are the pic's of your amp?If so nice work.
    F1nut wrote: »
    While I am a firm believer in quality parts I also know that circuit design plays a huge role in the final sound.
    Throwing HQ parts at a bad topology is like putting lipstick on a pig.
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  • lanchile
    lanchile Posts: 560
    edited June 2010
    F1nut wrote: »
    While I am a firm believer in quality parts I also know that circuit design plays a huge role in the final sound. Therefore, I will have to disagree with your notion that using only the best parts will result in great sound.

    of course not! The design is the most important aspect, but as I said before the quality of the parts have a big roll there.;)
    Make it simple...Make it better!
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  • kawizx9r
    kawizx9r Posts: 5,150
    edited June 2010
    Think we should revert back to the subject of suggesting polkfarmboy a good amp, while the rest of us just sit back and enjoy a beer and listen to the music :)
    Truck setup
    Alpine 9856
    Phoenix Gold RSD65CS

    For Sale
    Polk SR6500
    Polk SR5250
    Polk SR104


    heiney9 wrote: »
    Any clue how to use the internet? Found it in about 10 sec.
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  • lanchile
    lanchile Posts: 560
    edited June 2010
    kawizx9r wrote: »
    Think we should revert back to the subject of suggesting polkfarmboy a good amp, while the rest of us just sit back and enjoy a beer and listen to the music :)

    agree! I would sugest an Adcom amp 100 watts RMS will be enough if He has efficient speakers.
    Make it simple...Make it better!
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 51,668
    edited June 2010
    FTGV wrote: »

    Throwing HQ parts at a bad topology is like putting lipstick on a pig.

    Miss Piggy is going to be mad with you.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,396
    edited June 2010
    lanchile wrote: »
    Because for 100 watts RMS 40,000uf is not bad at all.

    For your reference my amp is 30wpc and has 120,000uF of filter capacitance. (12) 10,0000uF caps w/ 6 per channel.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • Hawkeye
    Hawkeye Posts: 1,313
    edited June 2010
    For his Martin Logan's, find a B&K Ref 2220. He'll be set for a LONG time!

    Gordon
    2 Channel -
    Martin Logan Spire, 2 JL Audio F112 subs
    McIntosh C1000 Controller with Tube pre amp, 2 MC501 amplifiers, MD1K Transport & DAC, MR-88 Tuner
    WireWorld Eclipse 6.0 speaker wire and jumpers, Eclipse 5^2 Squared Balanced IC's. Silver Eclipse PCs (5)
    Symposium Rollerblocks 2+ (16)Black Diamond Racing Mk 3 pits (8)
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  • polkfarmboy
    polkfarmboy Posts: 5,703
    edited June 2010
    Good reading here and very civil

    Keep on with the discussion regardless of what amp I end up with
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  • polkfarmboy
    polkfarmboy Posts: 5,703
    edited June 2010
    Hawkeye wrote: »
    For his Martin Logan's, find a B&K Ref 2220. He'll be set for a LONG time!

    Gordon

    Thats funny you recommended that amp gordon because you put the very same amp up FS on this exact date 2 years ago . You have moved up the food chain quite a bit since then
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited June 2010
    cfrizz wrote: »
    Joe, I'm NOT the one that brought up the $7,000.00 cost of an Ayre amp, someone else did.

    Unless you are an engineer, how the hell are you supposed to know who has put good components into which amp? You can't you just assume it by the pricetag of the amp.

    Everytime this topic comes up someone has to toss in thier low watt tube amp, which is an apples to oranges comparison & expensive to boot.

    It took me YEARS before I was willing to trust buying used gear, and it only happened after my bought new Rotel amp died after 18 years of use!

    We all have to start somewhere, and 9 times out of 10 COST is a major factor.

    I don't assume that a newbie is going to be willing to buy a used "better" brand, and quite frankly "better" is relative to each individuals perspective. Nor do I assume newbies want to endlessly play around & swap out gear.
    Nor do I assume newbies are going to want 2 separate systems.

    I was lucky in getting good gear with my first system, it was Rotel, Onkyo, & my Polk RTA-8Ts. Purchased new for a little over $2,000.00 20 years ago. Back then it was a heck of a lot of money, but I was still living at home at the time so I had plenty of disposable income. I couldn't do it now with all my other expenses.

    Hence my always adding Outlaw & Emotiva as options, because even IF they are made with cheaper components, they will still sound better than just the receiver alone.

    Joe, you and alot of the guys have more than outgrown the Outlaw & Emotiva brands of gear, but your automatic, negative feedback is doing a great dis-service not only to the gear, but also to most newbies that are looking for REASONABLE options when purchasing equipment that is built to last for years.

    Hmmmm . . . I don't recall ever giving negative feedback on Outlaw or Emo; how could I, I never heard them so I don't really know where you are getting the automatic "negative feedback" of those two brands from me. As a matter of fact I was touting the merits of my NAD AVR . . . great design, relatively low wpc, and fairly decent internal components.

    Sorry about not catching the $7000 amp being mentioned by someone else.

    I'll reiterate; a good design and quality parts are what make an amp special.
    cfrizz wrote: »
    Unless you are an engineer, how the hell are you supposed to know who has put good components into which amp? You can't you just assume it by the pricetag of the amp.


    By doing just what the OP is doing; asking questions and getting feedback from people in the know about the quality and design of an amp

    Sorry Cath, but that is an absurd statement here on Club Polk! I can't recall anyone here including me saying that the price tag of an amp or any other component for that matter has any merit in choosing a piece of gear.

    However I will say that the "proverb" you get what you pay for does come into play but should'nt be a given or a detractor when choosing components. If you have the moola then go for the high price tag item if you like the way it sounds, if not go for the best bang for buck, new or used.
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  • lightman1
    lightman1 Posts: 10,796
    edited June 2010
    I paid $260 for an 18w X 18w Mengya tube amp. My Ben-mod Denon is collecting dust at an alarming rate. It's a nice little self-biasing integrated that doesn't mind different tubes shoved into it on a whim............
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  • Hawkeye
    Hawkeye Posts: 1,313
    edited June 2010
    polkfarmboy wrote: »
    Thats funny you recommended that amp gordon because you put the very same amp up FS on this exact date 2 years ago . You have moved up the food chain quite a bit since then

    Indeed I have. The B&K Ref2200 was a fine amp. Had my lot in life not changed, the B&K along with the Paradigm Signature S8 would have been a very nice combination. Since you've searched my history here, you'll find I am more than willing to part with gear at a very acceptable level.

    I sold the S8's for $1000. Those were a $5.5K set of speakers
    I Karma'd a B&K 2 channel pre
    I Karma'd a set of Mapleshades speaker wire. (Golden Helix)
    I gave a set of RT55I away.
    I gave away two sets of AudioQuest Viper IC's
    I sold a $2K sub for $600
    I'm ready to give away a set of SDA-2

    I have moved up the food chain, yet I haven't forgot about anybody. I made a recommendation for an amp. Did you know the guy refused to pay me for that amp?

    I don't know what your intent was with your post but I have been completely honest and clear with this group. I owe no apology nor explanation especially to you.

    I still think a B&K 2200 would be a fine choice for your speakers. You're just too ill informed to make a decision.

    Gordon
    2 Channel -
    Martin Logan Spire, 2 JL Audio F112 subs
    McIntosh C1000 Controller with Tube pre amp, 2 MC501 amplifiers, MD1K Transport & DAC, MR-88 Tuner
    WireWorld Eclipse 6.0 speaker wire and jumpers, Eclipse 5^2 Squared Balanced IC's. Silver Eclipse PCs (5)
    Symposium Rollerblocks 2+ (16)Black Diamond Racing Mk 3 pits (8)
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  • lightman1
    lightman1 Posts: 10,796
    edited June 2010
    polkfarmboy wrote: »
    Thats funny you recommended that amp gordon because you put the very same amp up FS on this exact date 2 years ago . You have moved up the food chain quite a bit since then
    Hawkeye wrote: »
    Indeed I have. The B&K Ref2200 was a fine amp. Had my lot in life not changed, the B&K along with the Paradigm Signature S8 would have been a very nice combination. Since you've searched my history here, you'll find I am more than willing to part with gear at a very acceptable level.

    I sold the S8's for $1000. Those were a $5.5K set of speakers
    I Karma'd a B&K 2 channel pre
    I Karma'd a set of Mapleshades speaker wire. (Golden Helix)
    I gave a set of RT55I away.
    I gave away two sets of AudioQuest Viper IC's
    I sold a $2K sub for $600
    I'm ready to give away a set of SDA-2

    I have moved up the food chain, yet I haven't forgot about anybody. I made a recommendation for an amp. Did you know the guy refused to pay me for that amp?

    I don't know what your intent was with your post but I have been completely honest and clear with this group. I owe no apology nor explanation especially to you.

    I still think a B&K 2200 would be a fine choice for your speakers. You're just too ill informed to make a decision.

    Gordon
    Gordon is good people, polkfarm.
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited June 2010
    Hawkeye wrote: »
    Indeed I have. The B&K Ref2200 was a fine amp. Had my lot in life not changed, the B&K along with the Paradigm Signature S8 would have been a very nice combination. Since you've searched my history here, you'll find I am more than willing to part with gear at a very acceptable level.

    I sold the S8's for $1000. Those were a $5.5K set of speakers
    I Karma'd a B&K 2 channel pre
    I Karma'd a set of Mapleshades speaker wire. (Golden Helix)
    I gave a set of RT55I away.
    I gave away two sets of AudioQuest Viper IC's
    I sold a $2K sub for $600
    I'm ready to give away a set of SDA-2

    I have moved up the food chain, yet I haven't forgot about anybody. I made a recommendation for an amp. Did you know the guy refused to pay me for that amp?

    I don't know what your intent was with your post but I have been completely honest and clear with this group. I owe no apology nor explanation especially to you.

    I still think a B&K 2200 would be a fine choice for your speakers. You're just too ill informed to make a decision.

    Gordon

    You're a good man Gordo and fine example of the spirit of Club Polk, not just because of the SDA 2s but for everything you do.
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  • Hawkeye
    Hawkeye Posts: 1,313
    edited June 2010
    I'm not looking for accolades from the group. I feel GOOD about what I have done for a couple folks here.

    I don't know what PFB was getting at? Whatever it was, I don't care for it.

    Gordon
    2 Channel -
    Martin Logan Spire, 2 JL Audio F112 subs
    McIntosh C1000 Controller with Tube pre amp, 2 MC501 amplifiers, MD1K Transport & DAC, MR-88 Tuner
    WireWorld Eclipse 6.0 speaker wire and jumpers, Eclipse 5^2 Squared Balanced IC's. Silver Eclipse PCs (5)
    Symposium Rollerblocks 2+ (16)Black Diamond Racing Mk 3 pits (8)
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