Rti 12's

hc_416

I have now reciviced my new sunfire amp and have the full setup running. I have noticed that the Rti's are a very bright speaker and can't even take the full 425 watts a channel. I have the highs and the mid's on the voltage side and i have the woofers on the current side. I am running my yahama vx 2700 as my my pre amp and useing my cinema grand sig. 2 as my amp. I have rca's for the single and am useing all the factory power cords, along with 12 gauge phoniex gold cables. The speakers sound very nice but when i start to push it they giet very bright and a little hard to listen to. Are there any ways to tone this down.

cnh

Get rid of the Yamaha as a pre-amp! Yammies tend to be bright...Rtis are bright...not a good combo.

cnh

cnoat

+1,My 12's are bright.The 6's in the series are the most neutral.

Erik Tracy

cnh wrote: »

Get rid of the Yamaha as a pre-amp! Yammies tend to be bright...Rtis are bright...not a good combo.

cnh

I gotta ask - is this based on personal experience?

cstmar01

I did not like when I had a yahama paired with Monitor 70's. For me it wasn't a clean sound, and the low end was muddy. the highs didn't bother me as much as the low end.

Erik Tracy

cstmar01 wrote: »

I did not like when I had a yahama paired with Monitor 70's. For me it wasn't a clean sound, and the low end was muddy. the highs didn't bother me as much as the low end.

That's cool, but I guess what I'm curious is the 'mantra' that seems to be chanted here and on other forums about how bright the Yammies are, yet the reviews I've read are just the opposite - say for the V1800
http://www.hometheatermag.com/receiv...00/index1.html

Highlights
Plenty of ins and outs, including HDMI 1.3
Very flexible multi-zone configuration
Excellent deinterlacing and video quality
Warm, laid back sound

I have the V1800 and would say, yeah for the most part, this is what I hear. In experimenting with several different speakers, I'd say that the speaker contributes the most to any perceived notions of 'brightness'. Next would be music selection and mix (some CDs for example would send anyone on any system running for cotton to stuff in their ears cuz of brittle highs).

If folks are hearing bad joojoo synergy using yammies based on personal experience...cool...all about that...first hand 'ears on'...but if it is just mantra chanting from a post from a post from a post - then...gotta call that one out.

Erik Tracy

hc_416 wrote: »

I have now reciviced my new sunfire amp and have the full setup running. I have noticed that the Rti's are a very bright speaker and can't even take the full 425 watts a channel. I have the highs and the mid's on the voltage side and i have the woofers on the current side. I am running my yahama vx 2700 as my my pre amp and useing my cinema grand sig. 2 as my amp. I have rca's for the single and am useing all the factory power cords, along with 12 gauge phoniex gold cables. The speakers sound very nice but when i start to push it they giet very bright and a little hard to listen to. Are there any ways to tone this down.

How are you running you 2700 setup?

Have you run YPAO on the 2700? You may want to re-run it and select 'FLAT" as the PEQ profile. This will average out high frequencies and tone down the RTi12 harshness.

Bernal

hc_416 wrote: »

I have now reciviced my new sunfire amp and have the full setup running. I have noticed that the Rti's are a very bright speaker and can't even take the full 425 watts a channel. I have the highs and the mid's on the voltage side and i have the woofers on the current side. I am running my yahama vx 2700 as my my pre amp and useing my cinema grand sig. 2 as my amp. I have rca's for the single and am useing all the factory power cords, along with 12 gauge phoniex gold cables. The speakers sound very nice but when i start to push it they giet very bright and a little hard to listen to. Are there any ways to tone this down.

Check the connection and use a good oxygen-free cable with the Sunfire. The room can be influenced...

_____________________________________
01) DENON AVR-4308CI: Advanced 7.1 CH/5.1+2 CH/ 3.1+2+2 CH A/V Home Theater /MultiMedia Multi-Source/Zone Receiver with Networking and WiFi/170 watts x 7 channels
02) SUNFIRE Grand Signature - Bob Carver's
03) OPPO BDP-83 Blu-ray Disc Player w/SACD & DVD-Audio
04) OPPO DV-980H 1080p Up-Converting Universal DVD Player with HDMI and 7.1CH Audio
05) DENON DVD-2500BTCI: Blu-ray Disc™ DVD/CD Digital Player/Transport
06) HITACHI P55T501. 55" HD1080 Plasma HDTV
07) POLKAUDIO LSiC (Center speaker)
08) POLKAUDIO LSi15 LEFT (Front speaker)
09) POLKAUDIO LSi15 RIGHT (Front speaker)
10) POLKAUDIO LSiC Vertically (Surround speaker)
11) POLKAUDIO LSiC Vertically (Surround speaker)
12) POLKAUDIO LSif/x LEFT (Surround back speakers)
13) POLKAUDIO LSif/x RIGHT (Surround back speakers)
14) VELODYNE OPTIMUN SERIES 12"(High Output Digital EQ SubWoofer 2400W/1200WRMS)
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showcase/view.php?userid=98096

hc_416

No, I have not run YAPO. I like to mess around with the sound myself, for better or worse of course. I have all the higher feq's turned down so I can get rid of the brightness. I also am running at PCM for the cleanest sound. I have the Rx 2700 so it would be pretty exp. to replace. I paid 1500 about three years back. I just bought the sunfire, so i will have to wait, I was thinkin about a denon down the road but i do have to say I am very pleased with the yahama. I have also bought the panaga power cord to see if it helps. I really want to move up to the blanced xlr's but that will cost a lot of dough. Has anyone noticed that the polks don't take 500 watts, or is it when they get turned up they sound harsh??

curved

How long have you had your 12's for?

I'm not really following you when you say "take" 500 watts??

hc_416

In the owners manual they state that the rti's take up two 500 watts rms. I have also read numerous posts that state that they are power hungey. I just got my amp with 425 x 5 and expected to be blow away by the performance, but to my suprise they didn't sound that much better. Sound wise the amp is years above my old one a carver 1.5t. But dam what speaker can really take 500 rms i guess i the fool.

mdaudioguy

Erik Tracy wrote: »

I have the V1800 and would say, yeah for the most part, this is what I hear. In experimenting with several different speakers, I'd say that the speaker contributes the most to any perceived notions of 'brightness'. Next would be music selection and mix (some CDs for example would send anyone on any system running for cotton to stuff in their ears cuz of brittle highs).

If folks are hearing bad joojoo synergy using yammies based on personal experience...cool...all about that...first hand 'ears on'...but if it is just mantra chanting from a post from a post from a post - then...gotta call that one out.

I've driven my RTis with 2 Yamaha's - V661 and V863 - an Onkyo, and now a Harman/Kardon. I didn't care as much for the Onk for reasons other than sound, and although I'm convinced the Yammies are excellent receivers, there was always an edge to the highs that fatigued my ears. I just don't think there's good synergy in the pairing. For my ears, the HK did the trick. There's a balance that wasn't there before. I have no idea what the Yamahas would have sounded like with other speakers. As they say, YMMV (and surely does)!

virtualdean

hc_416 wrote: »

I have now reciviced my new sunfire amp and have the full setup running. I have noticed that the Rti's are a very bright speaker and can't even take the full 425 watts a channel. I have the highs and the mid's on the voltage side and i have the woofers on the current side. I am running my yahama vx 2700 as my my pre amp and useing my cinema grand sig. 2 as my amp. I have rca's for the single and am useing all the factory power cords, along with 12 gauge phoniex gold cables. The speakers sound very nice but when i start to push it they giet very bright and a little hard to listen to. Are there any ways to tone this down.

Isnt that the opposite of what is recommended? I thought it was current side to the highs and voltage to the woofers....
Excuse me if I have it bass ackwards..:D

cnh

Erik Tracy wrote: »

I gotta ask - is this based on personal experience?

You have an 1800 right? I've heard that and some Rtis on it. It's subjective, of course, and you should understand that I like EXTREME 'warmth', anything that smacks of bright or too much detail on the high end, IMO of course, sets me off. That's why I have a lot of trouble with many CDs and my system...I can't afford the changes it would take to 'mellow' those boys out. I just attended a major concert here in Beijing that had a lot of BRASS in it....I listened as 'carefully' as I could to hear just how BRIGHT brass sounds live (at least in a hall that had decent acoustical treatments). The live performance was not as bright as the brass I've heard on most systems...including my own mid-fi system. Then I thought of all those super edgy tweeters (fabulously detailed high ends--much MORE detail than I heard live) I've heard in various showrooms and it all gave me a moment to pause....and wonder about it all, once again.

Dan (mantis) loves 'detail' in his amps and speakers. He loves the Pioneer ICE amps. I think they are indeed very good. But they are NOT 'warm' enough for me even though they are GREAT amps for HT and not bad for music.

The OP can try another pre-amp and see if that changes anything for 'him' if not then we're back to subjective preferences and perceptions. I've also owned a Yamaha AVR and currently, among other things I have a Yamaha CD/SACD player that I find a bit bright also? But it's not a bad player at all! I'm not dumping on Yammies at all...just expressing personal preferences for a guy who has a penchant for warmth even at the EXPENSE of detail? And suggesting one course of action...not the only one. There are others above...equally worth trying.

The 1800 has good power, is pretty clean, good lows, clear midrange, etched highs (some will like that detail). And is overall a very competent player in the AVR mid-range game.

cnh

wayne3burk

I have a very midrange yamaha AVR - the RX-V870 and I'm using an SEA Two P10 100 wpc power amp to drive -- Either my SDA-1Cs (unmodded), my Monitor 10Bs (unmodded), or my Dynaco A25s (also unmodded). I don't find any of them to be too bright - if anything i find them to be laid back an mellow - Nice bass, full mids, and a little not so detailed in the highs.

Is it the speakers or the amp?

I think it's the tweeters in all three of those speakers are dome tweeters -- the 10Bs have black domes, I know the 1Cs have the 2000 something or another tweeters, and the Dynaco's have some sort of soft dome black tweeter thingy to.

If i was using a speaker with a horn or a paper tweet or a ribbon tweet i'm sure i'd get much more brighter overall balance and "detail".

That said - I'd love to get my hands on a vintage marantz 2275 or a nice tube pre and power combination. (some day)

my suggestion to the OP is to try another pair of speakers and see if they aren't so bright, but I'm surprised that any polk speaker from that time period would run "bright" - must be in the x-over not the dome tweet.

-- wayne --

wayne3burk

disregard previous post -- I thought you said RTA 12s. but i think you'd be happy with a pair of Monitor 10s or Monitor 12s as i said in the previous post - not harsh, bright or forward leaning in the least.

--wayne--

tonyb

virtualdean wrote: »

Isnt that the opposite of what is recommended? I thought it was current side to the highs and voltage to the woofers....
Excuse me if I have it bass ackwards..:D

Good point, I also thought it was this way with the current side being more warmer,thus setting them up for the highs on a brite speaker. Cables will also play a huge part, what cables are you using ? The speakers are breaking up at higher volume because of the pre,not the amp. Get your read on my man.

quadzilla

hc_416 wrote: »

I have now reciviced my new sunfire amp and have the full setup running. I have noticed that the Rti's are a very bright speaker and can't even take the full 425 watts a channel. I have the highs and the mid's on the voltage side and i have the woofers on the current side. I am running my yahama vx 2700 as my my pre amp and useing my cinema grand sig. 2 as my amp. I have rca's for the single and am useing all the factory power cords, along with 12 gauge phoniex gold cables. The speakers sound very nice but when i start to push it they giet very bright and a little hard to listen to. Are there any ways to tone this down.

So to get this out of the way, several around here don't agree with my set up because I run pro-level amps, but it works for me.

That said, I've pushed as much as a kilowatt through my RTi 12s (109 db at the listening position). Right now, I'm pushing 850 wpc in a bi-amp configuration (each amp runs one speaker), and the sound is quite clean even at higher listening levels. It has not, however, been easy to get it to this point, and I'm still experimenting a bit after a year of owning these speakers.

The biggest trick gain seems to come from two things. First, follow Polk's set up guide for these which show the speakers with no toe. Second was getting the spacing right. For my room, this was slighly less than the recommended Polk setting of using a seperation between the left and right mains equal to the distance to the main listening position. Polk's recommendation is that the speakers should form an equilateral triangle with the listening position as measured from the center-front of the baffle. I do know that when I had my 12s toed in, they were much brighter. I've also noticed that after running a lot of power through then for a couple hundred hours, they smoothed out considerably.

You'll probably also want to try using the AVR's calibration, then tweak to taste instead of just winging it. After you calibrate, listen for at least a few days to give your ears time to adjust. I've noticed that any time I make a change, if I immediately like it, I end up hating it later. The changes that I've kept have been the ones that take me at least a few days to notice.

You'll also need to play around with interconnects, source media, etc. Synergy (or co-operation) between components is often over looked. You may also find that if you're running, for example, your CD in via a digital link, using the DAC in the CD and running the analog outs to your AVR will sound better. You should also try running in direct mode to take all the AVR processing out, as I've noticed that at least with my Pioneer SC-05, the calibration settings tend to be optimized for home theater rather than music.

Finally, I don't know what your amp's ratings are, but many amps introduce considerable distortion as the approach their limits. This may explain the harshness. Other things that can factor in are things such as whether you're running everything from the same outlet and possibly depriving the amp of the required current, which can also cause the amp to distort more than it should.

Any who, getting things "just so" is a rather long and involved process. There's no magic dust to be sprinkled on this one.

hc_416

The amp is a sunfire cinama grand sig. 2 putting out 425*5. I have the speakers in a equearlity triangale. I am useing all ditigal inter connects. The speakers are distorting just at the limits. They sound harsh and i have pushed them past their limit. The amp is well regaurded and I dought that it is the amp. Some of the interconnects could be upgraded I just bought the panag ac-9 power cord for the amp. I also am all of my items of one socket. That could be a probelm. I will try the clabration this week but i now have to go to work.

Erik Tracy

hc_416 wrote: »

The amp is a sunfire cinama grand sig. 2 putting out 425*5. I have the speakers in a equearlity triangale. I am useing all ditigal inter connects. The speakers are distorting just at the limits. They sound harsh and i have pushed them past their limit. The amp is well regaurded and I dought that it is the amp. Some of the interconnects could be upgraded I just bought the panag ac-9 power cord for the amp. I also am all of my items of one socket. That could be a probelm. I will try the clabration this week but i now have to go to work.

Jeez dude....425 and you are pushing the sunfire to its limit?

Are you trying to recreate a live Who concert??:eek:

hc_416

No Im not even toching the potental of the amp I have reached the limit of the speakers, i was thinking of some 800d's but can't afford that.

Sherardp

I have a Pioneer SC-07 that allows you to tame the high freqs and it works very well which was mentioned above. I drive my Rti12s with a D-Sonic Magnum 1000s power amp which gives me 525 wpc x2 with no problem. The 12s sing very well at high levels. No issues here. I have run MCACC which is definitely the SQ I'm sure. Room calibration is a must if you want the best sound. Afterward you can make changes all you like but at least you have a starting point.

quadzilla

hc_416 wrote: »

The amp is a sunfire cinama grand sig. 2 putting out 425*5. I have the speakers in a equearlity triangale. I am useing all ditigal inter connects. The speakers are distorting just at the limits. They sound harsh and i have pushed them past their limit. The amp is well regaurded and I dought that it is the amp. Some of the interconnects could be upgraded I just bought the panag ac-9 power cord for the amp. I also am all of my items of one socket. That could be a probelm. I will try the clabration this week but i now have to go to work.

I've pushed a 1000 watts per channel through the RTi 12s. Believe me, they can take 425 easily. It's not the speakers that are causing the distortion. Although if they're new, they will need some break in time. I got mine used, and it still took about 200 hours before the sound stopped changing after I moved from my AVR @ 125 wpc to the bi-amp configuration at 850 wpc.

Also, what about toe in? Did you point the speakers toward the listening position any? That will focus more highs on the listener making them sound brighter.

One other question I should have asked originally; what about your listening room? When I hit 109 db at the listening position, the room effects were really bad in my untreated room.

hc_416

I would have to question how lound you have put the gain up on the pre amp. I can bi-wire the speakers and have. Thats gives them 850, But you can't turn the speaker up past half way. Regaurdless. I think I didn't use the right termolgoy. When i say distorting I don't mean the amp is clipping or the speakers aren't makeing the sound. I just mean that they sound very bad. THe high's are just too harsh and their are not enough lows. I aplogize. I just wanted to see if this was happing to anyone eles. I should get the new power cord any day. hopefully that will help

rcrook317

i have rti12s w emo xpa-2...........never had any problem w distorting.....rti series known for being a lil bright though.I added higherend cables(rca,speaker) and tweaked setup thru the hk354 and sounds great

quadzilla

hc_416 wrote: »

I would have to question how lound you have put the gain up on the pre amp. I can bi-wire the speakers and have. Thats gives them 850, But you can't turn the speaker up past half way. Regaurdless. I think I didn't use the right termolgoy. When i say distorting I don't mean the amp is clipping or the speakers aren't makeing the sound. I just mean that they sound very bad. THe high's are just too harsh and their are not enough lows. I aplogize. I just wanted to see if this was happing to anyone eles. I should get the new power cord any day. hopefully that will help

That sounds like a calibration issue.

My gain on the AVR is currently at -.5 db for the mains, +1.5 db for the center, +2.5 for the surrounds and +3.5 for the rears, but I don't have harsh sound at high levels. I do have very loud sound a high levels. The EQ settings are pretty flat (largest boost/cut is 2.5 db for the mains). This was all calibrated via the AVR's set up. I can run the AVR up to +3 before the main amps start clipping without it ever sounding harsh. My usual listening level is around -20 to -10 for music. Same for movies. That's where my set up actually starts to sound good.

Something to keep in mind is that if you are applying EQ to taste at a lower volume level, most people's ears need extra highs in order to hear detail, so most people add in too much high frequency to make it sound right at lower levels. If you just have to calibrate by ear instead of using the AVR, then turn it up to your normal listening level and calibrate there. It won't sound it's best at other volume levels, but that may help with what you're describing.

You might also check to see if you have anything like "dialogue enhancement" turned on. Any settings like this will attempt to compress the sound so you can hear voices more easily at lower volumes. I have everything in my AVR turned off except the EQ and phase controls.

virtualdean

hc_416 wrote: »

I have now reciviced my new sunfire amp and have the full setup running. I have noticed that the Rti's are a very bright speaker and can't even take the full 425 watts a channel. I have the highs and the mid's on the voltage side and i have the woofers on the current side. I am running my yahama vx 2700 as my my pre amp and useing my cinema grand sig. 2 as my amp. I have rca's for the single and am useing all the factory power cords, along with 12 gauge phoniex gold cables. The speakers sound very nice but when i start to push it they giet very bright and a little hard to listen to. Are there any ways to tone this down.

I came back to see what the resolution was.

At any rate, try putting your avr on "sourcedirect" NOT pcm. You want your Yammie to pass the pure analog signal direct to the preamp and not be processed by the avr in any way. Sourcedirect may be called something else in your manual.

chargerman426

I have put 700rms watts to my RTi12's and they handled it fine. The RTi line is just a bright line because they were designed that way. Polk wanted that to be there Home Theater speaker so they made them brighter so you can hear all the little details in movies like glass braking and gun shots. You want to try to use the current out puts on the sunfire with the RTis it you want them to be warmer.