McIntosh says no way to MQA.......BRAVO!!!

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Comments

  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 18,753
    edited June 23
    ...

    To the detractors I would say that euphonic noise in an amplifier is something that the amp purchaser chose as a matter of preference. Furthermore, the even order harmonic distortion in a tube amplifier is certifiably euphonic because it is even multiples of the fundamental frequencies in the music.
    Absolutely true (of second order distortion, which is exactly an octave above the fundamental) -- but absolutely not a factor of tubes, but rather a factor of single ended (as opposed to push-pull) amplifier topology. The euphonic distortion of a single-ended amplifier operated at (relatively) high levels of HD is, in fact, critical to the use of at least some SE amplifier stages in the amplification of a musical instrument. Less of a factor, I'd opine in an SE hifi amplifiers which are, believe it or not, designed to have as little harmonic distortion (euphonic or otherwise) as possible.

    The distortion spectra of SE vs. PP amplification is well documented.
    http://www.pmillett.com/file_downloads/ThesoundofDistortion.pdf
    http://www.tdpri.com/threads/fender-for-home-single-ended-vs-push-pull.729323/
    http://www.aikenamps.com/index.php/what-do-the-terms-push-pull-and-single-ended-mean
    http://www.x3mhc.no/dokumenter/SE-v-PP-Part1.pdf

    (just a few, rather arbitrarily chosen 'references' -- none particularly scholarly)
    The data loss changes to the original 96kHz/24 bit digital music file that MQA causes are not something chosen by the music consumer as a matter of preference.

    It is not clear that the added noise in MQA recordings could be be scientifically and subjectively described as euphonic.
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    But...

    Don't forget that the interrelationship of bits from the least to the most significant isn't linear, it's exponential (2^n, where n is the number of bits). I.e., 8 bits out of 24 isn't "one-third of the music signal"... it's 2^8 parts out of 2^24 parts -- which (calculator sound effects) is 256 divided by 16777216 which is 0.0015%.

    I did not forget. The figure of 0.0015% really does not indicate how much of the original signal is lost because, with all the iterations of "folding" (MQA's nice term for COMPRESSION) and other signal manipulation that goes on, we really don't know how much of the original digital signal survives the MQA process. What we know is that the input to the MQA system is music sampled at 24 bits/96 kHz. The output is either 16 or 17 bit audio sampled at 96 kHz.
    That is a good point!

    "It's like watching a roomful of people who couldn't get through college algebra discussing the flaws of quantum physics theory. I guess it could be fun, but it's ultimately a waste of time." -- seen on audiokarma

    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

    "Writing about hifi is like dancing about architecture" -- paraphrasing some wag (possibly Frank Zappa)
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 18,753
    PS: I simply cannot wait for the word ecosystem to fall out of fashion in the technology world. :|
    "It's like watching a roomful of people who couldn't get through college algebra discussing the flaws of quantum physics theory. I guess it could be fun, but it's ultimately a waste of time." -- seen on audiokarma

    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

    "Writing about hifi is like dancing about architecture" -- paraphrasing some wag (possibly Frank Zappa)
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 18,753
    kharp1 wrote: »
    @tonyb I like your ears, can't begin to think how ugly you'd be without them!
    ...

    ... and it is so hard to wear eyeglasses without them.
    "It's like watching a roomful of people who couldn't get through college algebra discussing the flaws of quantum physics theory. I guess it could be fun, but it's ultimately a waste of time." -- seen on audiokarma

    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

    "Writing about hifi is like dancing about architecture" -- paraphrasing some wag (possibly Frank Zappa)
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 29,567
    kharp1 wrote: »
    @tonyb I like your ears, can't begin to think how ugly you'd be without them! And I certainly appreciate you turning me on to the Butler. Even though your old, decrepit ears aren't worth much you did get that one right. :)

    Yeah yeah yeah Kerry....

    a7aa2jok8vta.jpg


    I think my ears deserve more credit than just the Butler. How about McCormack/Parasound/B&K amps, Joule pre's, xyz cables, speakers.....anything I pretty much suggest for people to give a whirl with, they seem to like.

    ….and when ears I trust around here tell me to try something, I listen and give it much more weight. When others ears I trust suggest things for newer members to pair up gear with, they should put some weight behind it also.

    Which is one reason when listening to suggestions, you have to form some idea of what those people like in their preferences. My group of ears I trust may not align with say some younger members circle of ears they trust. That's ok...how the world works....and how we move forward in audio.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    Tad 803 bookies
    Polk 500 surrounds
    Polk s35 center
    SVS SB-2000
    Sonos

    Music-

    Joule la-100 pre
    B&k 1403 amp
    Cary xciter dac
    Cullen modded Sonos
    ERA D5 bookies

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Analysis plus crystal oval ic's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
  • maxwardmaxward Posts: 124
    Great thread! John Darko (Darko.Audio) reported today that Exogal is dropping support for MQA.
    Thorens TD-160C; Sumiko Talisman S; Jolida JD9; Marantz CD-53; Micromega Mydac
    Joule-Electra LA-100; Balanced Power Technology AC conditioner;
    Odyssey Khartago monos (with most factory upgrades); Magnepan MG 3.6R
  • afterburntafterburnt Posts: 4,429
    Does anyone remember "PDQ"? it was the "PF Flyers" of "Bosco"
    Parlor: ifi iDSD Micro*Yamaha RX-A2030*Parasound Halo P5*Parasound Halo A-31*Parasound 2250v2*Emotiva XPA-200 Gen1*LSiM707 Fronts*LSiM706c Center*LSiM702f/x Surrounds*Monitor70 Series II Rears*Monitor40 Series II Presence*SVS PB2000 Sub X2*OPPO BDP-103D*Sony PS3*Samsung-55" LED 1080p Smart 3D HDTV UN55H7150AFXZA*TEAC TN-300*Wireworld Solstice cables* Wireworld Stratus power cables*Blue Jeans Cable LC-1's IC's*BJC Silver-Plated IC's* Bens Silver IC's

    Dungeon: Dancer Mini-Two Diamond*Auralic Aries Mini*Dayens Ampino Preamp*Dayens Ampino Monoblocks*North Star Intenso DAC*Wireworld Oasis cables*Wireworld Oasis IC's*Wireworld Aurora power cables*IFI nano IDSD bl*Pangea Silver USB*Cambridge CXU*

    Panamax MR5100*Panamax M8-AV-PRO*Furman PST-2+6

    Headgear: Sennheiser HD 558*Audio-Technica ATH-M40x*Sennheiser HD 598 Cs*Audio-Technica ATH-MSR7*Philips SHP9500S* Sennheiser 6xx

    Hello Kitty boombox

    Spare sortta: Usher N-6361* ifi iDsd nano*Marantz 1504* RX-A1040*Emotiva XPA-1L Gen2 X2*Emotiva XPA-3 Gen2*CSiA6 Center*Monitor40 Series II*SVS PB1000 Sub*Sony BDPS6500 Blu-ray player*POS 37" LCD*Douglas Connection Furez 12 AWG 2 Conductor*Blue Jeans Cable LC-1's IC's*Samsung BD-H5900 3D Blu-Ray*Usher N-6361


    Self Control is over rated.
    Mr. Sharpe wrote: »
    Meh these were extra $70 as an open box item so it didn’t much to me either way:)

  • ThortonThorton Posts: 1,113
    kharp1 wrote: »
    So, let me cut through the dank, septic muck that has developed,as a result of the aforementioned bloviating, and see if I can get some clarity. MQA is a lossy format that adds noise, and is proprietary and requires special hardware, and that somehow is supposed to be good? I'm not that desperate to crawl through the desert and drink sand when I find no water.

    Lol. Great post. I'll try it out eventually but I'm in no hurry. Seems like added cost with minimal benefit.....if any.
    _____________________________________________________________________________________________
    Source: Sonos - W4S Mod, DAC: W4S DAC-2
    Pre/Pro: Marantz AV8805
    Amp1: W4S MC-5, AMP2: W4S MMC-7
    Front: Salk SoundScape 8's, Center: Salk SoundScape C7
    Surround: Polk FXIA6, Surround Back: Polk RTIA9, Atmos: Polk 70-RT
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    IC & Speaker Cables: Acoustic Zen, Wireworld, Signal Cable
    Power Cables: Acoustic Zen, Wireworld, PS Audio
    Room Treatments: GIK Acoustics
  • ThortonThorton Posts: 1,113
    [/quote]
    I think my ears deserve more credit than just the Butler. How about McCormack/Parasound/B&K amps, Joule pre's, xyz cables, speakers.....anything I pretty much suggest for people to give a whirl with, they seem to like.

    ….and when ears I trust around here tell me to try something, I listen and give it much more weight. When others ears I trust suggest things for newer members to pair up gear with, they should put some weight behind it also.

    Which is one reason when listening to suggestions, you have to form some idea of what those people like in their preferences. My group of ears I trust may not align with say some younger members circle of ears they trust. That's ok...how the world works....and how we move forward in audio.
    [/quote]

    Your ears are OK by my books. Many suggestions you’ve given to me that I’ve tried are spot-on. Keep on, Keepin-on.
    _____________________________________________________________________________________________
    Source: Sonos - W4S Mod, DAC: W4S DAC-2
    Pre/Pro: Marantz AV8805
    Amp1: W4S MC-5, AMP2: W4S MMC-7
    Front: Salk SoundScape 8's, Center: Salk SoundScape C7
    Surround: Polk FXIA6, Surround Back: Polk RTIA9, Atmos: Polk 70-RT
    Subs: 2 - Rythmik F25's
    IC & Speaker Cables: Acoustic Zen, Wireworld, Signal Cable
    Power Cables: Acoustic Zen, Wireworld, PS Audio
    Room Treatments: GIK Acoustics
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 18,753
    afterburnt wrote: »
    Does anyone remember "PDQ"? it was the "PF Flyers" of "Bosco"

    This is the PDQ I remember.

    "It's like watching a roomful of people who couldn't get through college algebra discussing the flaws of quantum physics theory. I guess it could be fun, but it's ultimately a waste of time." -- seen on audiokarma

    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

    "Writing about hifi is like dancing about architecture" -- paraphrasing some wag (possibly Frank Zappa)
  • Viking64Viking64 Posts: 3,090
    kpybd0qazgvb.jpg
  • halenhalen Posts: 346
    edited June 23
    If memory serves right. After each beer or just looking at a shot, TonyB passed out.. kidding.

    Now.... talking about hearing? I am lucky to have met Assimilated... Danny. I have not met any others like him. Hands down. This guy could hear ants pissing on cotton. Serious. Ask anyone in Texas that spent anytime with him. I trust his judgement but have my preferences on sound as well.

    As for MQA, still have no clue wtf it is.
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 18,753
    halen wrote: »
    As for MQA, still have no clue wtf it is.

    MQA (Mysteriously Quirky Audio, or Most Questionable Audioformat) is a cash cow whose milk soured in the udder.

    that's a really unpleasant* simile

    ;)

    _______________
    * Note that I am not implying that it's not apt; just that it's kind of... icky.
    "It's like watching a roomful of people who couldn't get through college algebra discussing the flaws of quantum physics theory. I guess it could be fun, but it's ultimately a waste of time." -- seen on audiokarma

    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

    "Writing about hifi is like dancing about architecture" -- paraphrasing some wag (possibly Frank Zappa)
  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,307
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    * Note that I am not implying that it's not apt; just that it's kind of... icky.

    What's really icky is naming something "Master Quality Authenticated" and implying that the digital file the consumer receives is the same as the studio master, after processing it with a lossy compression algorithm and re-inflating it with noise. And don't forget how gracious they were in making MQA backwards compatible with 16 bit legacy digital audio...as long as you don't mind less than CD quality 13 bit resolution with audible noise.

    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 18,753
    I expect that MQA will die a TS Eliot [poetic, that is] kind of death.
    Not with a bang but a whimper
    "It's like watching a roomful of people who couldn't get through college algebra discussing the flaws of quantum physics theory. I guess it could be fun, but it's ultimately a waste of time." -- seen on audiokarma

    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

    "Writing about hifi is like dancing about architecture" -- paraphrasing some wag (possibly Frank Zappa)
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 29,567
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    * Note that I am not implying that it's not apt; just that it's kind of... icky.

    What's really icky is naming something "Master Quality Authenticated" and implying that the digital file the consumer receives is the same as the studio master, after processing it with a lossy compression algorithm and re-inflating it with noise. And don't forget how gracious they were in making MQA backwards compatible with 16 bit legacy digital audio...as long as you don't mind less than CD quality 13 bit resolution with audible noise.

    I like that explanation, should be a sticky....somewhere.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    Tad 803 bookies
    Polk 500 surrounds
    Polk s35 center
    SVS SB-2000
    Sonos

    Music-

    Joule la-100 pre
    B&k 1403 amp
    Cary xciter dac
    Cullen modded Sonos
    ERA D5 bookies

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Analysis plus crystal oval ic's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
  • BlueFoxBlueFox Posts: 10,088
    Came across this on another forum. Whether true or not, I do not know. I doubt if I will buy this as not that big a Doors fan, but they do have a few good songs spread over a number of albums.

    "Audiophiles might be interested to know that the CDs in this new release have been encoded with the MQA (Master Quality Authenticated) process. These are fully compatible with standard CD players, but when connected to an MQA-enabled device, it can play the same disc back in hi-res 176 kHz /24 bit."

    http://www.superdeluxeedition.com/news/the-doors-waiting-for-the-sun-50th-anniversary-deluxe-edition/
    Bud - Silicon Valley

    Lumin S1
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD
    Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 4,518
    ^^ I'm not a fan, but I wouldn't buy that just based on the principle alone. Vote with your dollar.
    Got Dayens?
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 29,567
    BlueFox wrote: »
    Came across this on another forum. Whether true or not, I do not know. I doubt if I will buy this as not that big a Doors fan, but they do have a few good songs spread over a number of albums.

    "Audiophiles might be interested to know that the CDs in this new release have been encoded with the MQA (Master Quality Authenticated) process. These are fully compatible with standard CD players, but when connected to an MQA-enabled device, it can play the same disc back in hi-res 176 kHz /24 bit."

    http://www.superdeluxeedition.com/news/the-doors-waiting-for-the-sun-50th-anniversary-deluxe-edition/

    Right there is the rub....when connected to an MQA enabled device. Meaning an MQA enabled dac usually.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    Tad 803 bookies
    Polk 500 surrounds
    Polk s35 center
    SVS SB-2000
    Sonos

    Music-

    Joule la-100 pre
    B&k 1403 amp
    Cary xciter dac
    Cullen modded Sonos
    ERA D5 bookies

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Analysis plus crystal oval ic's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
124»
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