Is there a way to measure polyfill accurately?

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  • machone
    machone Posts: 1,471
    Take it easy man I was just kidding.
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  • Dredged posts are -thebest-

    @Jstas Thanks John, that's way more comprehensive than what my understanding of stuffing ever was. Thanks for the writeup. I guess us IT people can fly a bit on the keys, but here it's definitely appreciated.

    Back in my mobile SQ days we did all kinds of foam, dynamic mat, and fluff to change resonances of trim panels, the cabin, and dampen body cavities. A customers' SQ problem was seldom in the driven system. The 'professional' setups the SPL guys would sell and install to anyone with a money burning a hole in their pocket had the power and components needed just minus the brains. They'd listen to it and get tired of cabin rattle and come back and see Len or me to clean it up... We'd calculate the cabin as if it were a speaker enclosure itself, and they're just a nightmare usually.

    On the built enclosures we often just lined the corners and any bracing on the inside with stiff poly-fill and the flat MDF areas would get a few layers of DynaMat... tbh, the Dynamat cleaned them up more than the fluff. Poly-fill in a ported or passive enclosure was just a no-no, but we'd see them come in all the time like that, and sealed under-sized boxes failed from overheated coils with melted polyfill or unglued spiders, etc. Just better to eat the space requirement and build the enclosure correctly. I would say cheaters never prosper... but they do, just not for long.
  • Viking64
    Viking64 Posts: 6,646
    Jstas wrote: »
    machone wrote: »
    How can you type that much!!!!

    This is completely uncalled for and why I don't post much anymore. I go through all this effort to help some people out because I can. Then I get mocked and dumped on because I took some time out of a lunch break to provide an answer with complete thoughts formed with proper grammar, spelling and punctuation. All because it's beyond your comprehension that someone can form a complete answer and explain complex concepts with a keyboard.

    I don't believe anyone was mocking you or dumping on you. I was the first to respond with an image, as if the dog was saying: "Holy crap! That is a lot of information about polyfill." It was in no way intended to discredit you or ridicule you.

    I understand how much effort you put into your 2 posts and I can see how it may seem like it wasn't appreciated. The fact remains that we now have a permanent document detailing specifics of an often overlooked aspect of speaker dynamics that can be accessed and utilized for years to come.

    I am currently in the process of modding a pair of 2.3TL's. I had everything, save for the crossovers, removed from the cabinets. One "roll" of the original polyfill in each cabinet had fallen down to about midway of the diameter of the passive radiator. After sealing them with Power Grab and adding BlackHole5, I put them back together and the sonic improvements were substantial.

    At that time, the best advice I found on here, after installing the BlackHole5, was: "reinstall the polyfill" and "keep it out of the area of the PR". Your knowledge would have been invaluable to me then and is is sure to be for many others in the future. Your efforts are a perfect example of why this forum is great.
  • lightman1
    lightman1 Posts: 10,776
    Viking64 wrote: »
    Jstas wrote: »
    machone wrote: »
    How can you type that much!!!!

    This is completely uncalled for and why I don't post much anymore. I go through all this effort to help some people out because I can. Then I get mocked and dumped on because I took some time out of a lunch break to provide an answer with complete thoughts formed with proper grammar, spelling and punctuation. All because it's beyond your comprehension that someone can form a complete answer and explain complex concepts with a keyboard.

    I don't believe anyone was mocking you or dumping on you. I was the first to respond with an image, as if the dog was saying: "Holy crap! That is a lot of information about polyfill." It was in no way intended to discredit you or ridicule you.

    I understand how much effort you put into your 2 posts and I can see how it may seem like it wasn't appreciated. The fact remains that we now have a permanent document detailing specifics of an often overlooked aspect of speaker dynamics that can be accessed and utilized for years to come.

    I am currently in the process of modding a pair of 2.3TL's. I had everything, save for the crossovers, removed from the cabinets. One "roll" of the original polyfill in each cabinet had fallen down to about midway of the diameter of the passive radiator. After sealing them with Power Grab and adding BlackHole5, I put them back together and the sonic improvements were substantial.

    At that time, the best advice I found on here, after installing the BlackHole5, was: "reinstall the polyfill" and "keep it out of the area of the PR". Your knowledge would have been invaluable to me then and is is sure to be for many others in the future. Your efforts are a perfect example of why this forum is great.

    Buttkisser.....
  • Viking64
    Viking64 Posts: 6,646
    lightman1 wrote: »
    Buttkisser.....
    6apa10gaph03.jpg

  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 16,834
    I wish I had the skills to type like that, I for one appreciate the work and time you took to post that info. It would have taken me half the day with my typing skills..
  • ken brydson
    ken brydson Posts: 8,638
    edited December 2017
    Reported... Buh bye now...
  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 4,636
    Read first reply, stopped for coffee break, then read 2nd. Very concise points, thank you. I love my Power-ported SDA's.
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
  • stainless0steel2
    stainless0steel2 Posts: 193
    edited January 2018
    What happens if you add Black hole 5 behind the drivers in let's say a set of SDA 2B's. Do you still need some of the polyfill behind those drivers?
    The Night is Dark and Full of Terrors
  • Tony M
    Tony M Posts: 11,009
    @Jstas's very detailed explanation of whether or not to add or reduce or leave it be on speaker polyfill should be put at the top of the list in the Category of speaker tweaks and mods. Permanently.

    Very , very informative ! I've seen my fair share of speaker box / tower interiors that I can say the fill in them has been so varied that I believe, like John states, each has been unique without a doubt.

    Reading the explanations in John's post was like taking an advanced class on "Dampening a speaker enclosure" but taught in a way as to explain the theories and facts to my elementary level of knowledge on the subject.

    Thanks John !

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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,708
    What happens if you add Black hole 5 behind the drivers in let's say a set of SDA 2B's. Do you still need some of the polyfill behind those drivers?

    You need all of the original polyfill.
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  • pkquat
    pkquat Posts: 742
    @Jstas Excellent posts. TY. I keep forgetting to mention that in my drive by's of late.
  • verb
    verb Posts: 10,176
    Thanks @jstas and @f1nut I think I found my answer for my 1C upgrade path. BH5 just behind the MW's and re-install the original polyfill. Correct?

    http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/179960/another-1c-upgrade-path#latest
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,474
    verb wrote: »
    Thanks @jstas and @f1nut I think I found my answer for my 1C upgrade path. BH5 just behind the MW's and re-install the original polyfill. Correct?

    http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/179960/another-1c-upgrade-path#latest

    Yes it is good stuff.
  • FestYboy
    FestYboy Posts: 3,861
    Reading @jstas 's post finally explained why I'd witness sub drivers wobble when viewed in slow-mo. I always wondered what was causing such nonlinear motion. Now I can use this to help remedy some mods I had in mind for the 505s.
  • wolfie62
    wolfie62 Posts: 24
    I knew there was a reason I don't use fiberglass or polyfill! I use a damping material to kill cabinet coloration, but not fiber stuffing.
    Invention is the mother of necessity.

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  • Viking64
    Viking64 Posts: 6,646
    wolfie62 wrote: »
    I knew there was a reason I don't use fiberglass or polyfill! I use a damping material to kill cabinet coloration, but not fiber stuffing.

    Fiberglass insulation makes for a relatively poor sound control product.
  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,558
    That must be why they use it in car mufflers.
    Viking64 wrote: »
    Fiberglass insulation makes for a relatively poor sound control product.

  • Viking64
    Viking64 Posts: 6,646
    Clipdat wrote: »
    That must be why they use it in car mufflers.

    Fiberglass and fiberglass INSULATION. Big difference.
  • Jstas
    Jstas Posts: 14,707
    So I was going to write a big long post about passive radiators and how they work (they're ports) and I knew I remembered posting about this before.

    I did.

    It's in this thread.
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  • Jstas
    Jstas Posts: 14,707
    Expert Moron Extraordinaire

    You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 27,965
    Hard to imagine this was... 16 years ago
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  • i've read fiberglass insulation is better, and also polyfill is best. Which is actually better for the task? and why?
    I replaced the fill in some old sda crs speakers with fiberglass insulation, along with a few other upgrades. Result was good, but wondering if the other upgrades are held back a bit now by the fiberglass.
  • xschop
    xschop Posts: 4,636
    The Dacron won't suffocate the enclosures like fiberglass.
    Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
  • I just happened to be reading this earlier today. Maybe it would be useful to read: https://stason.org/TULARC/entertainment/audio/general/12-24-What-is-the-best-stuff-to-fill-a-speaker-cabinet-wit.html
    George / NJ

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  • I am responding to this thread with a brand new account that I just made, because I have been looking for an answer to this question for years.
    I don't have the time, money, or equipment to make the table.
    What is the weight to volume and density of pily fill?
    If I get the 20# box of polyfill that ships in a box that I'd 24"×20"×18" that is 5 ft³, they say to let it expand for 24 hours before using it.

    The shipped density of the poly fill is 4# per cubic foot, what is the expanded density?
    What is the softness of the pillow going to be if you stuff it right from the box with no time to expand except in the pillow?


    Thank you for reading this far if you did, I know this was originally a thread about using polyfill to stuff a speaker and how that is a worse idea that fiberglass insulation because of the reflective nature of polyester, but the answer was not given her for the density in general terms.

    Tl;Dr did we ever figure out what the density of polyfill is?
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,708
    Oki doki
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  • Gardenstater
    Gardenstater Posts: 4,136
    I am responding to this thread with a brand new account that I just made, because I have been looking for an answer to this question for years.
    I don't have the time, money, or equipment to make the table.
    What is the weight to volume and density of pily fill?
    If I get the 20# box of polyfill that ships in a box that I'd 24"×20"×18" that is 5 ft³, they say to let it expand for 24 hours before using it.

    The shipped density of the poly fill is 4# per cubic foot, what is the expanded density?
    What is the softness of the pillow going to be if you stuff it right from the box with no time to expand except in the pillow?


    Thank you for reading this far if you did, I know this was originally a thread about using polyfill to stuff a speaker and how that is a worse idea that fiberglass insulation because of the reflective nature of polyester, but the answer was not given her for the density in general terms.

    Tl;Dr did we ever figure out what the density of polyfill is?

    Seems like you're asking the wrong question. What is the target density that you wish to achieve in your enclosure? Once you know that, since you know the internal volume, you just determine how much polyfill you need by weight. If you don't have a digital scale I suggest you get one and they are cheap. If you have to compress it a bit by rolling it up first, do so. If you have to fluff it up, do that.

    I don't know what to tell you regarding target density. Ultimately should probably be trial and error. This gives a general rule of thumb for max. values but I don't know if it is correct personally.

    http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/topic/7168-a-technical-understanding-of-polyfill/

    1. If the enclosure is less than 2.5 - 3.0 cubic feet in size, you should use no more than one and a half pound of polyfill per cubic foot available in your enclosure.

    2. If the enclosure is greater than 2.5 - 3.0 cubic feet in size, you should use no more than one pound of polyfill per cubic foot available in your enclosure.

    Specific examples of polyfill's effects on various enclosure sizes (with varying amounts of polyfill in each size) can be found in The Loudspeaker Cookbook by Vance Dickason or in an article written by Tom Nousaine for the March/April 1995 edition of "Car Stereo Review".
    George / NJ

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